STEAM TO TAUNTON

[JonB-G]

I am writing a biography and need help identifying the possible year of a journey from Barnham Station (W Sussex) to Taunton. I was travelling to stay with a school friend for the Easter Holidays and I'm guessing that it is either 1962 or 1963 but all my other train trips, (to Victoria), were on an electric train whereas this one was pulled by a wonderful steam engine. However, it was extremely unusual to see a steam engine at that time so it must have been close to the end of that era. Any ideas would be very welcome.
Also, the ticket collector came along after the Chichester stop and advised me to count the seconds between the telegraph poles beside the track as they flashed passed and then to divide the resulting total seconds with ……. and here I must regret that I cannot recall the figure necessary to discover the speed of the train in miles per hour. If anyone can also help with the mathematical answer...................?
Most grateful for any help
Stay well
Jon

 

[30907]

For Taunton you would probably have caught the 11am Brighton to Cardiff, and changed at Westbury (no connection shows there in the 1962 timetable on timetableworld.com, though there was in 1958!) or Bath and Bristol TM (the Cardiff train didn't call there).
Your alternative would have been the 11.30 from Brighton to Plymouth as far as Yeovil Junction, the shuttle train to Yeovil Town and a local train to Taunton arriving soon after 5pm. This was quicker than going via Bristol.

They left Barnham at 11.38am and 12.6pm.

These were two of the three regular steam passenger trains at Barnham (the third went to Bournemouth), and they lasted a couple of years after your trip, so that's not much help with the dates.

Can't do the telegraph poles as I always counted rail joints (22 per 1/4 mile) - 900 divided by seconds.

 

[Taunton]

If it was the school hols in those years I quite likely took your loco number as it passed

The through train from Brighton to Bristol etc was still steam then, with a Southern Pacific loco to Salisbury and then a Western Hall loco on to Cardiff, narrowly missing Bristol Temple Meads but calling at the suburban Stapleton Road station instead - which rather prevents changing at Bristol if the Westbury connections didn't fit. Not many expresses from London Paddington through Taunton called at Westbury to connect with this, but three or so during the day did, and that would be the best way. These last would be normally diesel by that time.

The other way, if those connections at Westbury didn't work out, would be the Brighton to Plymouth through train, from Barnham to Exeter, and then come back from Exeter to Taunton, which was a frequent express service. That also would have been a Southern Pacific steam locomotive, most likely changing engines at Salisbury to another of the same type. Exeter to Taunton expresses were mostly diesel by then, but there were still a few where Western Region Castle express steam locomotives turned up.

These two through trains from Barnham each ran only once a day, as many mainstream cross-country expresses did, but people worked their day around them. Steam passenger trains would indeed by unusual at Barnham by then, but once you got to Southampton and on to Exeter they would predominate.

 

[randyrippley]

would the Exeter train have connected with a Taunton service at Chard Junction?

 

[Taunton]

would the Exeter train have connected with a Taunton service at Chard Junction?

Firstly no, because only local stopping trains on Yeovil to Exeter served Chard Junction. Secondly no, because the Chard line was operated in two separate and infrequent sections, which definitely didn't connect, one Chard to Taunton, and the other Chard to Chard Junction. And thirdly probably no, because the Chard line was closed in the big service reductions of September 1962, which puts it mostly outside the original questioners' parameters!

 

[WesternLancer]

I am writing a biography and need help identifying the possible year of a journey from Barnham Station (W Sussex) to Taunton. I was travelling to stay with a school friend for the Easter Holidays and I'm guessing that it is either 1962 or 1963 but all my other train trips, (to Victoria), were on an electric train whereas this one was pulled by a wonderful steam engine. However, it was extremely unusual to see a steam engine at that time so it must have been close to the end of that era. Any ideas would be very welcome.
Also, the ticket collector came along after the Chichester stop and advised me to count the seconds between the telegraph poles beside the track as they flashed passed and then to divide the resulting total seconds with ……. and here I must regret that I cannot recall the figure necessary to discover the speed of the train in miles per hour. If anyone can also help with the mathematical answer...................?
Most grateful for any help
Stay well
Jon

I see on model railway forums info on how far apart railway telegraph poles were typically placed (60 to 70 yards mentioned) - assume from that it is possible to calculate the number you need - tho easier if someone actually knows! Interesting tho as I have only previously heard of speed being calculated by timing the time between rail joints from sounds of wheels, as the rail joints are a set distance apart - rail lengths probably more exact lengths than poles might be distances apart.

See eg

How far between Telegraph poles

Hi, can anyone help me with this is there a set distance between telegraph poles, what is it and does it change on curves. Nigel:huh:

www.rmweb.co.uk

 

[Taunton]

In the opening of Sherlock Holmes "Silver Blaze", ironically when they were also travelling on the Paddington to Exeter line, Holmes and Watson can be found having the following conversation:

We had left Reading far behind us before he thrust the last one of them under the seat, and offered me his cigar-case. “We are going well,” said he, looking out the window and glancing at his watch. “Our rate at present is fifty-three and a half miles an hour.” “I have not observed the quarter-mile posts,” said I. “Nor have I. But the telegraph posts upon this line are sixty yards apart, and the calculation is a simple one.

It seems that Watson was a mileposts man, in the image of the later Cecil J Allen, whilst Holmes is a telegraph poles type. Sir Arthur Conon Doyle, of course was a really serial railway enthusiast, and knew all the methods well. Page 1 here :

https://sherlock-holm.es/stories/pdf/a4/1-sided/silv.pdf

 

[Magdalia]

In the opening of Sherlock Holmes "Silver Blaze", ironically when they were also travelling on the Paddington to Exeter line, Holmes and Watson can be found having the following conversation:

We had left Reading far behind us before he thrust the last one of them under the seat, and offered me his cigar-case. “We are going well,” said he, looking out the window and glancing at his watch. “Our rate at present is fifty-three and a half miles an hour.” “I have not observed the quarter-mile posts,” said I. “Nor have I. But the telegraph posts upon this line are sixty yards apart, and the calculation is a simple one.

It seems that Watson was a mileposts man, in the image of the later Cecil J Allen, whilst Holmes is a telegraph poles type. Sir Arthur Conon Doyle, of course was a really serial railway enthusiast, and knew all the methods well. Page 1 here :

https://sherlock-holm.es/stories/pdf/a4/1-sided/silv.pdf

"Silver Blaze" is probably better known for being the original source of "the dog that did not bark".

 

[JonB-G]

Thank you one and all for such detailed replies. I was nine years old at the time and I don't remember changing anywhere so I suspect I was met at Yeovil, but I am amazed at your combined knowledge. I have been searching Google for days, but to no avail and yet you have provided all that I need. For the train spotter at "Taunton" it was the start of the Easter holidays. Many thanks to you all and stay well.
Jon

 

[John Webb]

Re Telegraph poles and rail-joints for speed calculations, the latter is the more accurate method. Telegraph pole spacing can vary due to overbridges, stations and other lineside items, as well as curves in the track. Also you can't see telegraph poles in tunnels! Whereas the 60ft rail lengths were far more consistent. (Until the arrival of continuously-welded rail!)

 

[Taunton]

If travelling long distance by yourself at age 9, this was by no means unusual then, compared to the horror that would accompany this nowadays. At Barnham, parent has a quick word with the guard, who will place you in the compartment next to their van, "keep an eye on you", and mention it to the next guard when they change over at Salisbury. Word is "to be met at Yeovil Junction". Guards did not work up and down the train then, that was a separate grade called a Travelling Ticket Collector. At Yeovil Junction you would have been primed ready to get out, if by any chance those meeting you were not there, you would be handed to the platform porter for them, and subsequently the stationmaster, to sort out.

You can still do the same here in London today with black cab drivers, sending children across the city under their guard, just by giving contact phone numbers in case of need, but I don't think anyone would do the same with uber.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you one and all for such detailed replies. I was nine years old at the time and I don't remember changing anywhere so I suspect I was met at Yeovil, but I am amazed at your combined knowledge. I have been searching Google for days, but to no avail and yet you have provided all that I need. For the train spotter at "Taunton" it was the start of the Easter holidays. Many thanks to you all and stay well.
Jon

I was wondering if, when people mentioned the types of steam locos probably hauling your train Jon, if seeing pictures of those types rang any bells in your memory as to what the steam engine on the train looked like - eg as it pulled into Barnham?

You may also be interested to know that at least one of the services mentioned by people in answer to your question (though not the Brighton to Plymouth train but similar in terms of a long distance train from Brighton to the west) - running through to from Brighton - Barnham - Southampton - Salisbury - Bath - Bristol then onwards towards either Cardiff but more recently Gt Malvern survived as an operational train (run by the modern day GWR) until as recently as last weekend - when due to govt mandated changes the service was axed.

See this recent thread on the matter - but probably best to head to the last page
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gwr-brighton-services-axed-from-may-timetable-change.228590/

Page 12 post #348 says

Middleton Press's Worthing to Chichester book has a picture on the last page Battle of Britain Class 34057 on Mk1 coaches departing Chichester on 11 June 1962 for Cardiff. Same locos and stock were used on the Brighton to Plymouth trains in the same era.

Though I am sure plenty of pictures on line too

and Post #344 of that thread has a picture of the last train on the route with a commemorative headboard (I assume taken last Saturday)

 

[30907]

Thank you one and all for such detailed replies. I was nine years old at the time and I don't remember changing anywhere so I suspect I was met at Yeovil,

Axminster is actually nearer to Taunton by road, and was the next stop on the Plymouth train. However it is 22 miles down the line, so Yeovil Junction seems pretty likely.

I was wondering if, when people mentioned the types of steam locos probably hauling your train Jon, if seeing pictures of those types rang any bells in your memory as to what the steam engine on the train looked like - eg as it pulled into Barnham?

Almost certainly at that date both trains would have been worked by a Bulleid Light Pacific, either original or rebuilt, and a second one would have taken the Plymouth train forward.

You may also be interested to know that at least one of the services mentioned by people in answer to your question (though not the Brighton to Plymouth train but similar in terms of a long distance train from Brighton to the west) - running through to from Brighton - Barnham - Southampton - Salisbury - Bath - Bristol then onwards towards either Cardiff but more recently Gt Malvern survived as an operational train (run by the modern day GWR) until as recently as last weekend - when due to govt mandated changes the service was axed.

Pedantically, it was withdrawn about 1965, and the more recent service(s) started 30 years later.

 

[bishdunster]

Re Telegraph poles and rail-joints for speed calculations, the latter is the more accurate method. Telegraph pole spacing can vary due to overbridges, stations and other lineside items, as well as curves in the track. Also you can't see telegraph poles in tunnels! Whereas the 60ft rail lengths were far more consistent. (Until the arrival of continuously-welded rail!)

But dont rely on it, many places, espwcially branch lines had 45ft, 30ft and even 39ft rail lengths !

 

[32475]

I’ve dug out my Sept 61 - June 62 Southern timetable. From that, my hunch is that you might have caught the 11.00 Brighton to Cardiff which picked up at Barnham at 11.39. This stopped at Westbury at 2.19pm where you could have changed for a Taunton train. I hope that doesn’t throw a spanner in the works trying to sift through all the options you have to ponder on!

 

[WesternLancer]

Almost certainly at that date both trains would have been worked by a Bulleid Light Pacific, either original or rebuilt, and a second one would have taken the Plymouth train forward.

Thanks - I suppose I meant the Brighton to Cardiff, not Brighton to Plymouth service, so I have perhaps confused things.

Pedantically, it was withdrawn about 1965, and the more recent service(s) started 30 years later.

Tho I recall travelling behind class 33 diesel hauled Brighton to Cardiff services in the early 1980s and they switched to sprinter DMUs (class 156 at first I think) circa 1987. Link I posted had pic of headboard saying the service had run 1930 to 2022, presumably in some form, continuously (person who posted the pic asked a question about it's origin's in 1930 but don't think it was answered on that thread). Again that's not the Plymouth service.

 

[30907]

Tho I recall travelling behind class 33 diesel hauled Brighton to Cardiff services in the early 1980s and they switched to sprinter DMUs (class 156 at first I think) circa 1987. Link I posted had pic of headboard saying the service had run 1930 to 2022, presumably in some form, continuously

Apologies - a summer Saturday Brighton-Bristol (presumably a class 33 and 8 from the Oxted line) ran from 1980, and went daily with the Sprinters. So around 20 years gap not 30.
The headboard didn't specifically say it ran continuously, which would have been misleading.

 

[WesternLancer]

Apologies - a summer Saturday Brighton-Bristol (presumably a class 33 and 8 from the Oxted line) ran from 1980, and went daily with the Sprinters. So around 20 years gap not 30.
The headboard didn't specifically say it ran continuously, which would have been misleading.

Thanks for added info - however pretty sure I was using it on weekday runs albeit after 1980 - rare to get the loco haulage out of Brighton heading west of course, and I recall compartment Mk1 carriages. Those would have been trips to Chichester for family reasons, but also one or two trips to Bristol. I can't guarantee they were not Saturday trips, but I don't think they were.

Needless to say I have not checked timetables so do not wish to say you are wrong

Talking of Barnham in 1962 - I just chanced upon these remarkable pics

Barnham Derailment 1962

1st August 1962

www.flickr.com

 

[Diplodicus]

The speed of your train was the nimber of joints ‘clicked’ in 44.5 seconds on standard long-distance tails.