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Steam trains on films

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BanburyBlue

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Whenever you see a steam locomotive pull away from a station on tv or a film, they always seem to show the locomotive doing a wheel spin as it starts to move. I’ve always assumed this is fantasy, and wouldn’t happen in reality. Is it?
 
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Cowley

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Whenever you see a steam locomotive pull away from a station on tv or a film, they always seem to show the locomotive doing a wheel spin as it starts to move. I’ve always assumed this is fantasy, and wouldn’t happen in reality. Is it?
Quite a frequent occurrence with a heavy train in steam days because the section of track at the end of the platform would accumulate grease from the various locos that had been standing there waiting for the off.
The rails may also be damp if there were watering facilities.
It wouldn’t always have happened of course, but it does add a little extra drama to a film. ;)
 

Spartacus

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Ideally you wouldn't do it all all, but yes it did happen, but filmmakers are always wanting steam locos in particular to be more visual, more smoke than necessary, cylinder cocks open when not necessary creating excess steam, and wheelspin, occasionally induced by starting before the train brakes are fully off.
 

hexagon789

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Whenever you see a steam locomotive pull away from a station on tv or a film, they always seem to show the locomotive doing a wheel spin as it starts to move. I’ve always assumed this is fantasy, and wouldn’t happen in reality. Is it?

It shouldn't happen ideally as it can cause damage to track and loco. That said, some classes were notorious for slipping when starting, even on dry rails - Bulleid Light Pacifics, West Countrys for instance, others such as LNER A4s were a bit more sure-footed, but could still slip easily enough with a heavy train.

The one company which seemed to produce the surest-footed locos was the GWR, they seemed at ease pulling away with even the heaviest of loads, something to do with the weight-transfer onto the drivers when starting off I believe.
 

trainmania100

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Wheelslip happens when the train is heavy or the rails are wet , even more so if it's on a curve
 

Deepgreen

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'Slipping', as it's known, was an extremely common occurrence in steam days, usually not very severe or long-lasting. Skilful driving entailed shutting off steam and re-opening the regulator just enough to re-apply power without causing another slip. Some classes were more prone to it - rebuilt Bulleid pacifics were notoriously 'light-footed' and it was uncommon for them not to slip at least a little when leaving Waterloo. Of course, modern traction also slips but it is usually hard to detect from the line-side. The perils of serious slipping were shown in 1994 when A2 pacific 60532 'Blue Peter' went into an uncontrolled slip at Durham while heading a rail-tour. The slip was allowed to continue for far too long and resulted in the motion of the locomotive being very badly damaged. It has been calculated that the driving wheels were rotating at a speed which would have seen the train travelling at 120mph (while the train was actually moving at walking pace).
 

John Webb

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The other 'Film effect' that is avoided, if possible, is putting the loco in reverse as a form of emergency stop. But it 'looks good' on film......
 

ainsworth74

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The perils of serious slipping were shown in 1994 when A2 pacific 60532 'Blue Peter' went into an uncontrolled slip at Durham while heading a rail-tour. The slip was allowed to continue for far too long and resulted in the motion of the locomotive being very badly damaged. It has been calculated that the driving wheels were rotating at a speed which would have seen the train travelling at 120mph (while the train was actually moving at walking pace).

That was actually caught on video and can be seen here:

 

Cowley

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That was actually caught on video and can be seen here:

It’s still horrendous to watch isn’t it?
60532 literally thrashed itself to pieces, you can see bits of motion flying off in that clip.
 

ainsworth74

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It’s still horrendous to watch isn’t it?
60532 literally thrashed itself to pieces, you can see bits of motion flying off in that clip.
A little bit! I probably should have put a health warning!
 

Cowley

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In that instance, why couldn't the crew control it by simply shutting off power?
From what I remember the loco primed itself after the boiler was overfilled and the driver (who was inexperienced) was unable to shut the regulator because it became hydraulically locked open.
The driver actually suffered a broken arm when the reversing gear caught him as was desperately trying to get back control.
A very nasty incident which did lead to some big changes in how mainline steam crews were trained.
 

satisnek

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Wasn't there an instance of similar damage to another locomotive, only this time caused wantonly by the driver 'playing to the gallery', or was I hearing a corrupted version of this event?
 

thejuggler

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Go to KWVR, Keighley end and watch a heavily loaded train leave on a damp day.


45 seconds in.
 

Deepgreen

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From what I remember the loco primed itself after the boiler was overfilled and the driver (who was inexperienced) was unable to shut the regulator because it became hydraulically locked open.
The driver actually suffered a broken arm when the reversing gear caught him as was desperately trying to get back control.
A very nasty incident which did lead to some big changes in how mainline steam crews were trained.
Yes, and I don't think 60532 has run since, or have I had a 'moment' here?
 

trebor79

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From what I remember the loco primed itself after the boiler was overfilled and the driver (who was inexperienced) was unable to shut the regulator because it became hydraulically locked open.
The driver actually suffered a broken arm when the reversing gear caught him as was desperately trying to get back control.
A very nasty incident which did lead to some big changes in how mainline steam crews were trained.

Yes, and I don't think 60532 has run since, or have I had a 'moment' here?
You've had a moment.
I was on a railtour hauled by Blue Peter in about 2001.
 

Cowley

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You've had a moment.
I was on a railtour hauled by Blue Peter in about 2001.
Yes I think the rebuild was paid for by an insurance pay out (which must have been hefty). She was certainly back on the mainline a couple of years later and put some pretty sparkling performances in through the late 1990s.
Anyway that’s all of that. Probably better get back on topic...

I do like the way a steam loco slips slightly before the driver gets to grips with a heavy train pulling away from a stop.
In WW2 the Gresley pacifics and V2s frequently took trains of 20+ coaches out of Kings Cross. I imagine that if they started to slip climbing out of there with that sort of load all would’ve been lost?
Those guys had some amazing skills I reckon.
 

Strat-tastic

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From what I remember the loco primed itself after the boiler was overfilled and the driver (who was inexperienced) was unable to shut the regulator because it became hydraulically locked open.
The driver actually suffered a broken arm when the reversing gear caught him as was desperately trying to get back control.
A very nasty incident which did lead to some big changes in how mainline steam crews were trained.
Thanks. That was scary serious.
 

John Webb

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........In WW2 the Gresley pacifics and V2s frequently took trains of 20+ coaches out of Kings Cross. I imagine that if they started to slip climbing out of there with that sort of load all would’ve been lost?
Those guys had some amazing skills I reckon.
I assume in those cases there would have been some assistance in the rear out of King's Cross from the loco which had brought in the empty stock? Never quite understood how they could deal with 20 coaches - a third or more of the train must have been beyond the platform - but that's getting off topic, perhaps!
 

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That was actually caught on video and can be seen here:


Quite scary stuff when you realise what you are actually listening to. It sounds like a spirited pattern being beaten out on a snare drum.

There is a similar incident on Youtube here:



For balance, here is a Western slipping away at North Queensferry.


Not sure what the driver was thinking there.
 

Deepgreen

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I assume in those cases there would have been some assistance in the rear out of King's Cross from the loco which had brought in the empty stock? Never quite understood how they could deal with 20 coaches - a third or more of the train must have been beyond the platform - but that's getting off topic, perhaps!
Probably helped out by the loco at the stops, but also remember that individual coaches were shorter and somewhat lighter than today's. The V2s were 2-6-2s so had slightly better adhesion than pacifics. Also before the era of a stationary train prior to departure being a SPAD! The centrally-located 'box at King's Cross helped the signalman to see what was sticking out and by how much.
 

Deepgreen

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Quite scary stuff when you realise what you are actually listening to. It sounds like a spirited pattern being beaten out on a snare drum.

There is a similar incident on Youtube here:



For balance, here is a Western slipping away at North Queensferry.


Not sure what the driver was thinking there.
He wasn't thinking - appalling driving. If you don't get any forward movement pretty much immediately after notching up, don't just leave it there and read the paper or something! The 'Westerns' had a very high tractive effort so he should have realised something was amiss and shut off straight away, rather than risk rail and/or tyre damage.
Hope he was never allowed near a cab again.
 

33017

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For balance, here is a Western slipping away at North Queensferry.


Not sure what the driver was thinking there.
It was on one engine with a coolant leak. The coolant contaminated the track making it particularly slippery, it's on quite a stiff gradient, and the driver did not immediately realise the loco was slipping as the rear engine was the one working and the front cab only has a rev indicator for the engine at that end. At least one preserved Western has had a mod done with rev counters for both engines at both ends but D1015 hasn't.
 

Cowley

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He wasn't thinking - appalling driving. If you don't get any forward movement pretty much immediately after notching up, don't just leave it there and read the paper or something! The 'Westerns' had a very high tractive effort so he should have realised something was amiss and shut off straight away, rather than risk rail and/or tyre damage.
Hope he was never allowed near a cab again.
We’re in danger of veering wildly off topic here but, I do remember reading somewhere that the wheelspinning bogie was not the bogie with the speedo drive on it.
Even so...

Edit - And what 33017 said.
 

Alanko

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It was on one engine with a coolant leak. The coolant contaminated the track making it particularly slippery, it's on quite a stiff gradient, and the driver did not immediately realise the loco was slipping as the rear engine was the one working and the front cab only has a rev indicator for the engine at that end. At least one preserved Western has had a mod done with rev counters for both engines at both ends but D1015 hasn't.

Interesting stuff, thanks! A few holes in the Swiss Cheese lined up there.
 

High Dyke

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Only just seen this thread, but it reminds me of an occurrence many years ago. At the time I was a member of a heritage railway that was helping out on a filming job. The steam loco had been sat in the station, with the chimney close or under the footbridge for some time, whilst various bits were filmed. The director asks the driver to "make a normal start". However, knowing the driver on the loco a number of us disappeared over the back of the platform. With some vigour the train pulled away and the film crew, and associated staff were left with soot spattered clothing.
 
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