Stitch up

[Rilz03]

Myself and a friend travelled from Aughton to Liverpool central on the 5th December.
There was no option to purchase a ticket at Aughton at around 5.30 pm as the kiosk was closed and they do not have a machine, we travelled with no issue and at the gates explained our problem to s staff member who directed us to the shop.
In the shop there was no social distancing being managed and myself and my friend decided to leave to look for a machine as well as discussing paying on the return journey as it’s a set price (travel card)
As soon as we stepped out of the shop we were confronted by a plain clothed revenue officer who had been stood with us in the shop , as if waiting for folk from Aughton knowing the ticket office was closed.
He would not listen to our situation nor show any understanding to the lack of social distancing
He also would not allow us to re enter the shop to then pay at the counters.
Is this acceptable?
We were willing to pay and did not leave Merseyrail property at any stage.
We have been issued with £125 fines immediately which seems very extreme as we gave our correct information and complied with all of their demands for ID etc.
I would really appreciate some help.

 

[bb21]

Are you able to elaborate a bit more on "In the shop there was no social distancing being managed"? What do you mean by that exactly? Could you not have hung back until it is your turn to purchase the ticket?

The bit about £125 fines also don't add up. Who gave you the fine? Via what method? How was it communicated to you?

 

[Rilz03]

Hello thanks
There was about 6 people in front of us all cramped up together and they had shelving creating an alley to stand in and our concern was more people filling in behind us.
There wasn’t any staff managing the que discipline
We were issued a print out from the officer and 5 days later I received a letter ordering me to pay £125 or I’d have to go to court

 

[island]

From the view of a disinterested observer, you were instructed to join the queue to pay for the journey you had made, which you did at first, then you decided to leave the queue and not pay. This is sufficient proof (as far as the law is concerned) of intent to avoid payment of the fare for your journey. The fare is due at the time of travel and not later.

You have now been given the opportunity to avoid prosecution for the criminal offence you’ve committed by making a payment. It is up to you whether you’d like to decide to make that payment; if not, you can wait for them to summons you to court. If convicted at court, which you probably would be, it’s a fine of up to £1,000, plus costs, compensation, and victim surcharge, and a criminal record. Your choice.

Next time, wait in the queue and if you’re genuinely concerned about social distancing, speak to a staff member or wait outside the shop until sufficient people have left.

 

[Elecman]

Where would the value of £125 have come from?

 

[221129]

Where would the value of £125 have come from?

Value of ticket + costs.

 

[island]

Where would the value of £125 have come from?

It’s likely a round-sum figure calculated based on several factors, such as defraying the cost of detecting and pursuing fare evaders.

 

[HSP 2]

One problem that I can see that could go against you and you friend is that you were asked to go to the shop (chance to pay [1]), to me the problem is that you chose to leave the shop without paying (so you chose not to pay[2]) . IIRC the shop also has a ticket machine in it.

But as you have mentioned you did not go passed the gate line, but you did leave a large shop where you could have bought your tickets, or waited for the que to die down.

I don't know what to say apart from saying sorry and saying that you have learnt your lesion and you won't do it again.

 

[WesternLancer]

whilst pertinent to your decision on what you did, I would be raising the poor management of social distancing, as you felt it to be, with the railway / merseytravel (whoever ran the office) customer services, copy your complaint about that to you local Public Health Service, usually part of your 'upper tier' council & Metro Mayor (Steve Rotherham?)

If you think your treatment was unfair (ie that it was reasonable for you to step outside due to your concerns AND you were seeking another way to pay, try asking your MP to intervene on your behalf with Merseytravel / the railway to see if on this occasion they would accept payment of the fare owed and not the punitive fine. Take care to make your case truthfully and reasonably. It may be worth a try.

 

[HSP 2]

I did forget to ask in my last post, how old are the pair of you, this can be very important in some of these cases.

 

[eoff]

What is the 'fine', Is that a penalty fare in which case I was under the impression you had to leave a compulsory ticket area or the station and d permission was given for the former.

 

[221129]

What is the 'fine', Is that a penalty fare in which case I was under the impression you had to leave a compulsory ticket area or the station and d permission was given for the former.

It's not a Penalty Fare. And you do not have to have left the station to be issued one.

 

[eoff]

It's not a Penalty Fare. And you do not have to have left the station to be issued one.

Thanks for confirming,

But are you saying that a Penalty Fare can be issued if you have been given permission to leave or have left a compulsary ticket area but not left a station?

 

[Spandau]

Bear in mind that whatever happened in Merseyrail's shop cum ticket office will have been observed by CCTV.

It could indeed prove there was a concerning environment - in which event the poster may well wish to request, as is his/her right, a copy of the footage.

Alternatively it might suggest that poster and friend did a runner.

 

[island]

What is the 'fine', Is that a penalty fare in which case I was under the impression you had to leave a compulsory ticket area or the station and d permission was given for the former.

It isn’t a Penalty Fare and even if it was, the impression you have doesn’t correspond to the current Penalty Fare Rules.

 

[eoff]

It isn’t a Penalty Fare and even if it was, the impression you have doesn’t correspond to the current Penalty Fare Rules.

I appreciated the confirmation it was not a penalty fare above.

I was going by the law: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/regulation/4/made
And note that "leaving a train" includes leaving a station.

Of course I may have interpreted it wrongly.

 

[Bow Fell]

Hello thanks
There was about 6 people in front of us all cramped up together and they had shelving creating an alley to stand in and our concern was more people filling in behind us.
There wasn’t any staff managing the que discipline
We were issued a print out from the officer and 5 days later I received a letter ordering me to pay £125 or I’d have to go to court

whilst pertinent to your decision on what you did, I would be raising the poor management of social distancing, as you felt it to be, with the railway / merseytravel (whoever ran the office) customer services, copy your complaint about that to you local Public Health Service, usually part of your 'upper tier' council & Metro Mayor (Steve Rotherham?)

If you think your treatment was unfair (ie that it was reasonable for you to step outside due to your concerns AND you were seeking another way to pay, try asking your MP to intervene on your behalf with Merseytravel / the railway to see if on this occasion they would accept payment of the fare owed and not the punitive fine. Take care to make your case truthfully and reasonably. It may be worth a try.

How do you physically stop people not adhering to social distancing?

If they are all cramped together, that’s down to them surely?

 

[GB]

Next time, wait in the queue and if you’re genuinely concerned about social distancing, speak to a staff member or wait outside the shop until sufficient people have left.

OP suggests there was no staff member there (other than the one selling tickets) and he/she did then attempt to wait outside the shop where they were immediately challenged.

 

[WesternLancer]

How do you physically stop people not adhering to social distancing?

If they are all cramped together, that’s down to them surely?

In a ticket office sales environment? Limit numbers in the space, floor markings that people are asked to adhere to, extend queue out door etc etc, staff on duty to remind people (eg a queue marshall) - all easy to do and would generally work I would suggest. I don't think the OP is suggesting a crowd had built up and were breaking rules deliberately. Tho I think the operator would need to reveiw the CCTV to see if the OP's view was robust....

 

[island]

OP suggests there was no staff member there (other than the one selling tickets) and he/she did then attempt to wait outside the shop where they were immediately challenged.

Which is why I provided a second alternative course of action, separated by the word ”or”.

I don't think the OP is suggesting a crowd had built up and were breaking rules deliberately.

Neither do I. Clutching at straws to get away with their mistake, however...

 

[WesternLancer]

Which is why I provided a second alternative course of action, separated by the word ”or”.


Neither do I. Clutching at straws to get away with their mistake, however...

Indeed

 

[Fokx]

Is this acceptable?

Yes, you were instructed on how to pay for your fare and chose to go against this.

FYI there is a ticket machine inside the M2Go shop located by the coffee machine

 

[Haywain]

OP suggests there was no staff member there (other than the one selling tickets) and he/she did then attempt to wait outside the shop where they were immediately challenged.

There is no suggestion of waiting outside the shop. The OP actually mentions buying a ticket on the return journey or looking for a machine.

 

[philthetube]

getting a photo at any time showing social distancing not being observed in this shop may help your cause.

 

[Fokx]

getting a photo at any time showing social distancing not being observed in this shop may help your cause.

It won’t if CCTV proves otherwise

 

[eoff]

I would just argue that you don't expect to be grabbed by store detectives for walking past the first till you come to and not paying.
(Not that it helps in any legal way).

 

[Fokx]

I would just argue that you don't expect to be grabbed by store detectives for walking past the first till you come to and not paying.
(Not that it helps in any legal way).

That’s not the case though, in this analogy you’ve been told where the tills are, queued up, decided that you don’t want to queue somewhere where other customers aren’t social distancing (rightly or wrongly), walked past the self-service tills (the ticket machine) and headed out to the car park (the Concourse/shopping centre) to look for a method to pay OR allegedly pay several hours later.

 

[philthetube]

getting a photo at any time showing social distancing not being observed in this shop may help your cause.

It won’t if CCTV proves otherwise

agree but if we start by calling the op a liar then why are we here, and CCTV may no longer be available.

 

[221129]

getting a photo at any time showing social distancing not being observed in this shop may help your cause.

It won't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Myself and a friend travelled from Aughton to Liverpool central on the 5th December.
There was no option to purchase a ticket at Aughton at around 5.30 pm as the kiosk was closed and they do not have a machine, we travelled with no issue and at the gates explained our problem to s staff member who directed us to the shop.
In the shop there was no social distancing being managed and myself and my friend decided to leave to look for a machine as well as discussing paying on the return journey as it’s a set price (travel card)
As soon as we stepped out of the shop we were confronted by a plain clothed revenue officer who had been stood with us in the shop , as if waiting for folk from Aughton knowing the ticket office was closed.
He would not listen to our situation nor show any understanding to the lack of social distancing
He also would not allow us to re enter the shop to then pay at the counters.
Is this acceptable?
We were willing to pay and did not leave Merseyrail property at any stage.
We have been issued with £125 fines immediately which seems very extreme as we gave our correct information and complied with all of their demands for ID etc.
I would really appreciate some help.

Extremely rare for a Merseyrail ticket office to be closed, but I guess there is a pandemic going on. Aughton Park indeed has no TVM, nor can one purchase Merseyrail tickets on a phone app.

I can confirm there is a TVM inside the Mtogo at Central (just on the left as you go in) which you could have used, I've used it a number of times. You would not be able to walk out of the Mtogo without seeing it right in front of you as it faces the queues for the counter.

Unfortunately even though you're right that the off peak day ticket is cheaper than the single for that journey so you would have paid on the way home, too many people just walk off for that to be allowed. I suspect the gateline staff were watching you, having let you through, to check that you did indeed pay. Indeed, when I've been in this situation (at the Euston gateline) they've sent me to the ticket office nearby and asked me to come back and show them once I have paid.

This being the case, I would suggest paying up promptly, I'm afraid.

(£125 notably is not a Penalty Fare which for this journey would have been £20, but rather an offer of an out of court settlement, so clearly they believe they have a solid prosecution case)

That’s not the case though, in this analogy you’ve been told where the tills are, queued up, decided that you don’t want to queue somewhere where other customers aren’t social distancing (rightly or wrongly), walked past the self-service tills (the ticket machine) and headed out to the car park (the Concourse/shopping centre) to look for a method to pay OR allegedly pay several hours later.

I think someone who was really concerned about social distancing would probably have seen the queue (which is clearly visible from the entrance and through the windows on the side), not entered the shop and immediately returned to the barrier staff to ask what you should do given that that was the case. Knowing Liverpool Central quite well, when you walk out of the Mtogo you could turn left or go straight on and go back to the barrier, or you could turn right and leave the station (and you would obviously not do that to find a TVM, as it's obvious that there aren't any in that direction).

The only TVM appears to be inside the shop:

National Rail Enquiries -

The gateway to Britain's National Rail network. A portal into UK rail travel including train company information and promotions; train times; fares enquiries; ticket purchase and train running information.

www.nationalrail.co.uk

(there used to be some on the pillar in the middle but no longer it appears)

I get that if you were making a return journey you would have paid the same if you paid on the way back, but sadly this isn't how it works. FWIW they are fairly wise to this if he was listening to you talking - "paying at the other end" was a classic Merseyside euphemism for not paying.