Stock transfers you would like to see

[pemma]

Agreed, the arrival of the five 322s has covered the shortfall in electric units to operate services radiating from Leeds, procuring nine 317s to replace just these five units would be overkill. If the 317s also replaced the 321/9s as well as the 322s, then it might be a more palatable concept as nine 317s would then be replacing eight 321/322s.

Northern could use an extra 3 or 4 EMUs on the West side before any new electrification is complete. 3 would be sufficient but 4 would reduce the likelyhood of a diesel unit or combination having to fill in for an EMU.

Plus the Stoke services may be able to exceed the 90mph speed limit of the 323s, which would help with late running trains not holding up following services.

 

[Drsatan]

One thing I've recommended before (which would depend on new stock for CrossCountry, of course ) would be to transfer the XC 221s to SWT for Waterloo_Exeter fasts, calling only at (say) Yeovil jct, Axminster, Honiton & Ex C west of Salisbury, thereby enabling the 159s to be used on all-stations intermediate services. I don't know if the line capacity could cope with it at the moment, but I'm sure they could think of something.

To run two trains an hour from Waterloo to Exeter St Davids, it would be necessary to at the bare minimum extend the double track section from east of Pinhoe to Honiton, from Honiton to Axminster, and from Tisbury to Yeovil Junction. This arrangement would also allow for an hourly all stations service from Axminster to Exeter St Davids, meaning that Whimple and Pinhoe would receive an hourly service as opposed to the 1tp2h service at the moment. The single track sections at the moment would only allow for a two hourly service from Exeter St Davids to Axminster if SWT had enough 159s.

One proposal I had in mind for the Voyagers would be to transfer Virgin's fleet of 221s to Scotrail, for use on the Far North line and Glasgow to Fort William, with the 156s and 158s displaced being cascaded elsewhere. Likewise, I'd also cascade XC's fleet of Voyagers elsewhere. I imagine transferring the remaining 57 220s and 221s to ATW, where they would be used on the Cambrian Coast services, Milford Haven to Manchester Piccadilly, Birmingham International - Holyhead, and Manchester Piccadilly to Llandudno.

 

[sprinterguy]

One proposal I had in mind for the Voyagers would be to transfer Virgin's fleet of 221s to Scotrail, for use on the Far North line and Glasgow to Fort William, with the 156s and 158s displaced being cascaded elsewhere. Likewise, I'd also cascade XC's fleet of Voyagers elsewhere. I imagine transferring the remaining 57 220s and 221s to ATW, where they would be used on the Cambrian Coast services, Milford Haven to Manchester Piccadilly, Birmingham International - Holyhead, and Manchester Piccadilly to Llandudno.

221s on the West and North Highland lines? hock: You have got to be kidding! Fuel thirsty, 125mph capable units packing over 3,000hp per train would be massively expensive for those sorts of regional, rural services and entirely unsuitable. They would represent a big overprovision of capacity on the North Highland lines (and on the West Highland to a lesser extent), and just how on Earth do you plan to accomodate the splitting of services for Fort William and Oban at Chrianlarich when the platforms on the route are only set up to deal with 6 x 23 metre carriages?

 

[paul1609]

If the pendo was light I'd be putting money on Alstom's motors rather than Hitachi, details that not many people would understand so I'm not going into it, but there isn't (and I have looked) any set of numbers for a fair comparison of traction effort or power. (Figures quoted are different, 390 has motor shaft power and 395 has traction system available power, very different measurements)

But the way that the 390 is set up in my opinion is better for getting off the line than the 395's systems.

Don't get me started on pointless and expensive enhancements used by Hitachi on the 395 units in comparison to the class 390 units.

Hmm am I missing something here Nym or do you work for Alstholm by any chance?:

It would seem to me that theres nothing special about the traction package in the pendolino its the Onix 800 package used in all Alstolm EMUs since 458s at least.
Its a pretty bog standard IGBT set up.

The class 395 has much the same set up from a different manufacturer, albeit its set up to use three different supply systems BR AC, HS AC and BR DC.
The class 395 has a power to weight ratio that is between 10 and 20% better than the 390depending on how you interpret the figures
The 395 is around 3 times more reliable than the 390 using the industry standard.

 

[tbtc]

All the XC 170's now have SDO (fitted during 2010/11 I think) so that doesn't apply now.

The Whittlesea stops are mostly at times when there are no GA service. And the Manea stop in the morning to/evening from Cambridge is well used with students/commuters for Cambridge. The morning from/evening to Cambridge stop at Manea is a total waste of space though.

Cheers for confirming

I would add give the EMT 156s to Scotrail in place of some 158s as CT had planned. Made sense to everyone but transport Scotland. Saying that an EMT 156 is much nicer than an unrefurbished 158

That'd make sense, given the 158s on short stoppers like Glasgow Central - Whifflet and routes with low speeds like the Far North where a 156 would be more suited.

I can't figure the rhyme or reason behind which of those services are 2 and which 3- it seems the same time on different weekdays can vary.

They really could do with the entire XC 170 fleet being 3 car, possibly 4 car, units.

168s?

Would be nice if the numbers worked out

Northern could use an extra 3 or 4 EMUs on the West side before any new electrification is complete. 3 would be sufficient but 4 would reduce the likelyhood of a diesel unit or combination having to fill in for an EMU

I thought you'd said that there were three return journeys a day where Northern used DMUs wholly under the wires (some of which interworked on other diesel routes)?

 

[Eagle]

Crosscountry having enough trains to allow the 2-car diagrams on the Birmingham - Leicester - Stansted route to become 3-car, and the currently 3-car diagrams to be formed of a pair of 2-car units to make a four carriage train would definitely be a great help: If London Midland still have the option to take on 26 additional class 172 vehicles, replacing the 170 diagrams on the Snow Hill lines and extending the use of 172s to the Chase line by introducing 7 x 2-car 172/2s and 4 x 3-car 172/3s, could allow Crosscountry to take on LMs' six 170/6s and aid in this aim.

Alternatively, cascaded DMUs from EGIP could include a bunch of 170s to XC.

(Anyone know how many DMUs EGIP is going to release?)

 

[anthony263]

Alternatively, cascaded DMUs from EGIP could include a bunch of 170s to XC.

(Anyone know how many DMUs EGIP is going to release?)

I was told that following EGIP at least 15 class 170's would become available although I am not sure how many class 157/158's will also be available

 

[Schnellzug]

Egip?

 

[tbtc]

(Anyone know how many DMUs EGIP is going to release?)

The current Falkirk High service needs sixteen 170s at peak times:

One unit does a two-hourly cycle, four trains an hour, doubled up units at peak times = sixteen units.

Also wiring the "triangle" from Glasgow/Edinburgh to Alloa/Dunblane and the "quick win" routes around Glasgow (Paisley Canal, East Kilbride, Whifflet, Cumbernauld etc) would see over fifty DMUs freed up (without needing to wire to Fife/ Perth/ Aberdeen/ Inverness).

There's talk of Scotrail wanting to keep some DMUs for additional/enhanced services (making Glasgow - Perth half hourly with additional services through Dundee etc), but EGIP is potentially a much bigger number of DMUs freed up than the Lancashire Triangle will release.

 

[Eagle]

Egip?

Edinburgh—Glasgow Improvement Programme, electrifying Edinburgh to Glasgow via Falkirk, Edinburgh to Dunblane, Glasgow to Alloa and Glasgow to Falkirk via Cumbernauld. Also adding (and electrifying) a new chord south of Dalmeny to relieve capacity via Edinburgh Park/Ratho.

Seems to be forgotten about south of the border, but it's a bigger project than the NW triangle.

 

[pemma]

I thought you'd said that there were three return journeys a day where Northern used DMUs wholly under the wires (some of which interworked on other diesel routes)?

Not quite 3 return journeys but I did say 3 morning peak workings and 3 evening peak workings.

I said 3 or 4 EMUs because 3 would cover those diesel diagrams and 4 would provide a spare so reduces the chance of a diesel filling in for an electric.

Yes there is a bit of interworking but that doesn't mean the diesel units can't be effectively utilised with revised diagrams.

For instance, I mentioned the 06:35 Chester-Stockport being 2x150s which then go ECS to Hazel Grove before forming a Hazel Grove-Manchester service.

Due to school and college start times and the number of Barclays workers at Radbrooke Hall who use the train to get to Knutsford (and then get bussed to Radbrooke Hall) there is an aspiration for an additional approx 08:00 Stockport-Chester service to suit demand. Northern apparently think it would be a good idea but say there are no units available to run such a service, so what comes off the 06:35 Chester-Stockport could be used here. It could also be operated by a 156 meaning a currently overcrowded 156 somewhere else could be replaced by a 4 carriage combination.

 

[SprinterMan]

It would have been far simpler when the Crosscountry and West Coast franchises were split up from formerly Virgin operation, and probably still would be now, for VWC to simply have been allocated 221101 - 120, all five carriage units, and the new Arriva XC franchise to have been allocated 221121 - 144.

Virgin would have had its' twenty 5-car units that it does now, and Crosscountry would benefit from having one additional 4-car unit that could be used to double up some more services through the XC core between York and Bristol. It certainly beats the needlessly complex arrangement of having carriages split between units, meaning that one Virgin 221 now has two shops and there are two driving cars performing very little function at all other than providing some company for the Central Rivers 08.

Alas, at the time this is what should have happened, but it didn't so my idea is just a quick fix to utilise all carriages in a way that requires the least vehicle modification, as XC 221s have had their buffets and tilt systems removed. It is also interesting to note that XC's website has referred to 221s as Voyagers and not Super Voyagers ever since the tilt was removed. This is sensible, I think.

Agreed, the arrival of the five 322s has covered the shortfall in electric units to operate services radiating from Leeds, procuring nine 317s to replace just these five units would be overkill. If the 317s also replaced the 321/9s as well as the 322s, then it might be a more palatable concept as nine 317s would then be replacing eight 321/322s.

I haven't experienced many Airedale, Wharfedale and Leeds - Doncaster services where eight carriage trains would be needed: Plus, a previous RUS document that covered the Airedale & Wharfedale services stated that the stations on these routes could only accept 6 x 23 metre formations without extensive and prohibitively expensive platform lengthening works being required at some locations: If we were to take the scenario proferred by the OP, then perhaps the nine 317/7s could be utilised on the West side of Northern as you say, most fittingly on Manchester Airport services as SprinterMan adds, releasing a similar number of 323s that could form up to four 6-car trains on Airedale & Wharfedale services to maximise capacity on the busiest services. Overall though, I feel that this creates too many micro-fleets for Northern on both sides of the Pennines that would cause complications in rostering and maintenance. Out of Leeds, the current arrangement of sixteen 333s and essentially eight 321s seems to be the most convenient arrangement in the circumstances.

Yeah, If the 317/7s take over Manchester Piccadilly - Manchester Airport - Crewe and Manchester Piccadilly - Stoke-On-Trent services the displaced 323s going over to the east side would create too many micro-fleets, so LM should get them, allowing their 321s to go to GA. This is a better idea than what I said originally about the 322s.

Adam

 

[LE Greys]

That'd make sense, given the 158s on short stoppers like Glasgow Central - Whifflet and routes with low speeds like the Far North where a 156 would be more suited.

I've been hoping that would happen for ages considering the EGIP and everything else. Scotrail apparently wanted it as well, but Transport Scotland evidently decided that they didn't want to see trains that they had spent good money refurbishing going to England. The 156s ended up with what was then 'ONE'.

If we want to continue the merry-go-round, and depending on various electrification schemes.

1. 30 X 185s to SWT as a result of various electrification schemes in Northern England, since SWT already have Desiros, but they might need some modification to make them more comfortable.
2. 30 X 159s to EMT, with the 22 159/0s (higher horsepower) in a specific pool to cover the longer routes, the remainder to act as a general reinforcement.
3. A mixture of 158s and 156s spread out over the rest of the country to franchises that already have them plus Pacers, either for reinforcement or as Pacer replacements.
4. 20-30 Pacers, to the great DMU depot in the sky.

1. Dependent on the EGIP and additional wiring. All Haymarket-based 170s to a new depot at Dundee or take over Aberdeen, with about 10 regularly outbasing in Inverness. Haymarket becomes an EMU depot.
2. 10-15 of the Corkerhill-based Strathclyde 156s to Inverness for the Far North/ Kyle. The rest others remain at Corkerhill for the West Highland & Stranraer routes.
3. 48 X 158s split between FGW, ATW and Northern.
4. As a result, more Pacers removed.

1. Dependent on the Thameslink stock replacement Many 319s to Reading (assuming that's still on) for use on Thames Valley services.
2. All 16Xs from this split between Cardiff (pending Valleys electrification) and Exeter, assuming no loading gauge problems. Refurbish with better interiors and use to replace 150s.
3. Possibly split the 150s up to fit in the middle of current units elsewhere.
4. 40 X 365s to TPX (as seems to be wanted) starting the first cascade.
5. All remaining 321s concentrate on Ilford.
6. Lump together the remaining 317s and find somewhere to send them - dependent on further electrification.

1. Dependent on extra 390s. 10 X 221s to TPX for Manchester-Scotland. They retain tilt.

1. Dependent on GW electrification, ideally as far as Swansea. Introduce whatever new trains are required.
2. Redeploy HSTs progressively through the franchise as the wired move west.
3. Non-buffet sets first, set swap with HT and GC for their 180s (best keep them together in one place).
4. Depending on traction characteristics, reinforce some sets to 2+9.
5. As more sets become surplus, try to get the number up to 20, shorten to 2+5 and send to XC.
6. 220s to TPX to replace their remaining 185s.
7. Small pool of remaining 185s to Inverness, refit with improved catering and seats for Highland Main Line.

OK, out of this horrendous tangle, we get rid of all Pacers and some 150s, increase the electric stock throughout the country, concentrate classes with individual franchises, keep 125mph stock on 125mph lines, reduce the use of 90mph stock on 75mph lines, speed up Waterloo-Exeter, bring tilt back to Manchester-Scotland (at least for a while), increase capacity and generally sort things out.

 

[Blindtraveler]

for starters, TPE 185s (not all of them) to Scotrail in exchange for 170s to work Central belt to Aberdeen and Inverness.
When EGIP done sort out clearence etc on west highland and south west Scotland lines and use 170s on these runs. Similarly convert shots line, far north, Kyle etc service to 170 opperation swapping some 2 car for 3 car with XC so that there are no platform length issues.

All freed up sprinters to Northern.

Bi-mode ALL 22x units including EMTs and order 9 car 390s for WC To replace 221s. Order new 390s for EC and cascade MK4s to FGW along with some 22s with a new fleat being ordered for MML Including HST replacement.
Same order to include new stock for GC and HT with all 180s going to FGW. virgins 221s go to XC.

 

[Eagle]

1. 30 X 185s to SWT as a result of various electrification schemes in Northern England, since SWT already have Desiros, but they might need some modification to make them more comfortable.

Being as services are usually in multiple (6- and 9-car predominantly), I'd prefer something with corridor connections on the West of England line. Also vestibules would be nice on such a long service... basically a diesel 444 would be perfect.

 

[LE Greys]

Being as services are usually in multiple (6- and 9-car predominantly), I'd prefer something with corridor connections on the West of England line. Also vestibules would be nice on such a long service... basically a diesel 444 would be perfect.

That also sounds like a good idea. Especially since it means the 185s can go to Dundee instead, and the Scottish 170s can come south, with some of them replacing the ex-SWT 170s on TPX, 2-car increased to 3-car. I forgot the XC 170s, which can go to either EMT or Northern if sufficient GW HSTs reinforce the fleet.

 

[anthony263]

I suppose the class 165's could be used on the Rhymney line although there are a few tight spots which may need looking at.
However apart from that and the lines down to Barry, Bridgend & the Coryton/Cityline there is nowhere else of the Valley lines the class 165's could work especially beyond Taff's wells.

That said there is the idea of using some of the class 165 fleet on services around Bristol and there are some very tight curves on some of the platforms at Temple Meads and on parts of the Severn Beach branch I am sure perhaps if these can be solved perhaps it could be done elsewhere.

That said I dont want to see some of the class 165 fleet sent to south wales instead of the Cardiff Valleys getting wired.

 

[Eagle]

I think 185s would be good on the Inverness line too, being as they're built for mountains.

 

[tbtc]

I think 185s would be good on the Inverness line too, being as they're built for mountains.

+1

If we are going to have these heavy thirsty machines then stick them on routes like the Highland Main Line and let them show what they can do

 

[ainsworth74]

One thing about having 185s up around Inverness, I wonder what impact they might have on the track. As I'm sure most are aware the 185s a flipping heavy units and heavy units tend to take more of a toll on the track than something light weight like a 158. Just something to think about (for the record I think once 185s are made available that Inverness would be a good destination for them).

 

[sprinterguy]

I was told that following EGIP at least 15 class 170's would become available although I am not sure how many class 157/158's will also be available

Class 156 you mean, to be needlessly pedantic Strathclyde PTEs' order for class 157s that was talked about at the start of the nineties never came to anything.

 

[pemma]

and the Scottish 170s can come south, with some of them replacing the ex-SWT 170s on TPX, 2-car increased to 3-car.

I've previously suggested the 185s could be swapped with the Scotrail class 170 fleet. While there are a few less 185s, there are also plans for Scottish electrification which should mean overall capacity is gained in Scotland.

I doubt any such swap would be considered before North TPE electrification, by which time I would hope that the 2 car 170s are not being used on TPE services in single formation.

 

[Class172]

As 165/166s are limited currently to a number of lines. I propose sending some of them to places where they are cleared: replacing LM's 170s to operate on the Hereford Line (based at Worcester) (and possibly Birmingham-Shrewsbury) following a refurbishment with 2+2 seating. After all, a 166 isn't too dissimilar in layout to a 170. The Chase line would have new 172s to replace their 170s. Therefore, as the 170s are cleared for a much larger area, they can be sent to many places where they are more useful.

 

[172212]

As 165/166s are limited currently to a number of lines. I propose sending some of them to places where they are cleared: replacing LM's 170s to operate on the Hereford Line (based at Worcester) (and possibly Birmingham-Shrewsbury) following a refurbishment with 2+2 seating. After all, a 166 isn't too dissimilar in layout to a 170. The Chase line would have new 172s to replace their 170s. Therefore, as the 170s are cleared for a much larger area, they can be sent to many places where they are more useful.

Shouldn't the chase line receive EMUs if anything?

 

[SprinterMan]

Shouldn't the chase line receive EMUs if anything?

It isn't electrified between Walsall and Rugeley Trent Valley, and I'm not sure if there are any plans to electrify the gap.

Adam

 

[172212]

It isn't electrified between Walsall and Rugeley Trent Valley, and I'm not sure if there are any plans to electrify the gap.

Adam

I knew that
Would love to see some 2015/2017 emu deliveries for Wolverhampton - New St and crosscity line, when the class 323s have ran their course

 

[sprinterguy]

I knew that
Would love to see some 2015/2017 emu deliveries for Wolverhampton - New St and crosscity line, when the class 323s have ran their course

The 323s are hardly going to be life-expired this decade, they'll still be just shy of 25 years old in 2017. I wouldn't suggest wishing them away when they are such perfectly adapted trains to Birmingham commuter services (I know that Ivo will disagree with me on this ), but on the other hand London Midland have in the past mooted early replacement of their 323s with Desiros.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It isn't electrified between Walsall and Rugeley Trent Valley, and I'm not sure if there are any plans to electrify the gap.

Adam

It's a shame that there is no solid commitment to electrify the Chase line. I understand that it is a thorny issue as to who provides funding to support the services on the line as it crosses the jurisdiction of more than one council area, but passenger numbers on the line in this day and age probably could warrant a half hourly, electrified, day time service.

 

[pemma]

Would love to see some 2015/2017 emu deliveries for Wolverhampton - New St and crosscity line, when the class 323s have ran their course

323s being withdrawn in 2015-2017? Not a chance! The older 319s will only be moving to new lines around that time and will probably be expected to do at least 7-8 years in their new areas. Expect 323 withdrawal 10+ years later than your 2015-2017 date.

 

[starrymarkb]

Pendolinos to mc metals

And what would you replace them with without downgrading the service for the non enthusiast passenger....

 

[pemma]

but on the other hand London Midland have in the past mooted early replacement of their 323s with Desiros.

That was after the previous government recommended Northern getting brand new EMUs* and LM getting the Northern 323s for extra capacity. This all went quiet and LM came out and proposed a reverse approach.

* Initially to replace the 323s and a few extra units for extra North West capacity but later to also replace the 321/9s and extra West Yorks capacity.