Stockport Signalling (trespass, 02 Nov 24)

[LowLevel]

Another ridiculous scenario. Yes, if the person is distressed they need to be treated with as much respect and dignity as possible but another one of this situations has resulted in hundreds of delayed and cancelled trains, over 11000 delay minutes and hundreds or thousands of people being stranded on board trains with no facilities for between 3 and 5 hours.

I hate to say it but if the person refuses to move from a switched off overhead line gantry, or indeed comes down but keeps climbing back up when approached, getting them off it is the priority even if it results in physical injury.

It is an extreme case where the safety of a large number of people has been jeopardised in order not to risk the safety of someone being disruptive by their own volition.

 

[DarloRich]

regardless of the circumstances the communication of information was really poor. The poor bloke at Buxton was mobbed by people, many of whom did not seem to have English as a first language. There needs to be a devolution of authority to those on the ground to sort out cabs etc to get people away. There was a gap from 1613 to 2255 for trains leaving Buxton for Manchester.

Several passengers were going to London but we couldn't persuade them to join us in a cab to Macclesfield because the screens were showing an 1844 departure as on time when it was clear to wasn't going to run. I wonder if they got home!

In time of perturbation the screens really need to be blanked and only be turned on when a train runs.

As an aside it was utter chaos at Macclesfield. At least 3 trains worth of people milling about. I saw a Pendoliono depart north empty, cross over somewhere and run back south. i didn't know they could do that!

 

[Spaceflower]

I was on the 11 o clock ish Barrow to Airport train and it was stopped just after Piccadilly for a while at just after 2pm before being reversed back to Piccadilly. Whilst we were stopped, I overheard from the driver and an other passenger that a lad had tried to force his way into the cab beforejumping off the train. This is overhead so I could be wrong. I was at the front of the train until just after Piccadilly when I’d visited the toilet and decided to remain in the middle of the train rather than return to the front. Once back at Piccadilly, All services running south were suspended at that point which was about 1555. They let one or two trains go at around 5pm - I jumped on what was either a Buxton or it’s short working (can’t remember the destination off hand and the boards were pretty messed up). However we were stopped again in the same place but allowed to continue. I jumped off at Stockport to change trains and immediately heard the announcement that all trains were cancelled (again). It was a couple of hours before a southbound coach arrived (Crewe) but the Piccadilly coaches were turning up regularly.

 

[peteb]

It was chaos at Stoke, northbound towards Manchester at least, several cross country units turned back there. My correspondent tried his luck on a Crewe train, however that missed a connection to Warrington (and thence Manchester Victoria) by a few minutes. Faced with a near 3 hour journey via Liverpool Lime Street he returned to the West Midlands as did scores of others.

 

[starlight73]

As an aside it was utter chaos at Macclesfield. At least 3 trains worth of people milling about. I saw a Pendoliono depart north empty, cross over somewhere and run back south. i didn't know they could do that!

There's a trailing crossover north of Macclesfield which is normally used to access the side platform 3, it looks like this can turn back trains too. See this map:

Live map of Congleton to Levenshulme and Reddish South

See trains move in real-time on our live map of Congleton to Levenshulme and Reddish South

www.opentraintimes.com

 

[DarloRich]

There's a trailing crossover north of Macclesfield which is normally used to access the side platform 3, it looks like this can turn back trains too.

thanks - i was running short of battery at that oint so couldnt look it up

 

[Spaceflower]

A lot of cancellations today. Every ‘other’ Northern service appears to be affected.

 

[Krokodil]

I overheard from the driver and an other passenger that a lad had tried to force his way into the cab beforejumping off the train. This is overhead so I could be wrong.

I've heard similar from elsewhere so I'd say that it's gen.

 

[DaveB10780]

I would suggest that they should have been dealt with much sooner. Thousands of people affected and plans messed up with associated stress. They should have been caught and locked up pretty quickly for their own safety.

I am not sure why the Buxton line was affected so badly , why couldn't they run any diesel trains past the problem. I was lucky got a RRB to Stockport and a 199 bus home.

 

[800001]

I would suggest that they should have been dealt with much sooner. Thousands of people affected and plans messed up with associated stress. They should have been caught and locked up pretty quickly for their own safety.

I am not sure why the Buxton line was affected so badly , why couldn't they run any diesel trains past the problem. I was lucky got a RRB to Stockport and a 199 bus home.

Police on track, other agencies on track, the erratic behaviour of the individual involved, maybe that why no services including diesel got past!

 

[JordR]

How high are the OLE stanchions there? I think I'm with several others that there's some justification for using a proportionate amount of force to end a situation where there are hundreds or thousands of people stranded and at increasing risk themselves.

 

[TUC]

regardless of the circumstances the communication of information was really poor. The poor bloke at Buxton was mobbed by people, many of whom did not seem to have English as a first language. There needs to be a devolution of authority to those on the ground to sort out cabs etc to get people away. There was a gap from 1613 to 2255 for trains leaving Buxton for Manchester.

Even without devolution of authority, is there no one senior on-call at Avanti who can authorise multiple taxis etc. in such circumstances?

 

[DarloRich]

Even without devolution of authority, is there no one senior on-call at Avanti who can authorise multiple taxis etc. in such circumstances?

I was stuck at Buxton getting twitchy about making the last southbound train of the day.

The poor ticket office guy was besieged by lots of people wanting to get away. He had no information or authority to do anything to help people.

Things like that have got to be sorted out. Surely the system allows the senior on call manager to make such decisions (whom I assume was "paged" during this problem)

 

[800001]

I was stuck at Buxton getting twitchy about making the last southbound train of the day.

The poor ticket office guy was besieged by lots of people wanting to get away. He had no information or authority to do anything to help people.

Things like that have got to be sorted out. Surely the system allows the senior on call manager to make such decisions (whom I assume was "paged" during this problem)

it’s shouldn’t take on-call to make a decision.

There are managers in control rooms who should make that call and email out to all relevant teams authorisation to book transport.

 

[DarloRich]

it’s shouldn’t take on-call to make a decision.

it didn't work on Saturday!

 

[muz379]

Can't find any threads relative to this, but I think that this screenshot from Traksy highlights the true mess Stockport's prehistoric signalling causes during disruption.

Tonight's trespasser blocked the line at Slade Lane Jn but Stockport was unable to turn trains back, and had to continue sending trains through.. leading to a complete mess.

The trains pictured are in Picadilly signalling centre's area of control , but it is possible to get trains from there back to stockport with some wrong direction moves and use of the Down fast to Up Fast crossover at Heaton Norris .I dont think you can get them to platform 0 from there but youll definitely be able to get them back to 1&2 .

It is also possible to turn trains back at Stockport station from P3&4 on the down to P1&2 on the Up via a shunt on the viaduct . I know NWR & TOC's aren't keen on shunting with trains in passenger service . But that probably wouldn't be an issue anyway because anyone on trains on the down at stockport is going to be wanting to go towards manchester anyway and the purpose of crossing trains onto the up is to send them back away from manchester . Even if people did want to go back with the train , you just empty it out , tell them to make their way over to the other platform and shunt the train empty .

I suspect another issue however is traincrew for services being turned back , especially some of the long distance intercity stuff . If you are an Avanti driver at Picc that is due to be finished on arrival at Picc you are unlikely to agree , or be able to drive the train back to Euston for example .

There are managers in control rooms who should make that call and email out to all relevant teams authorisation to book transport.

Indeed this should be done , I guess the only thing worth bearing in mind is an incident at such a location like that decimates the train service on almost the whole of the south side of Manchester so its a lot of locations need authority . But this should be covered in contingency plans anyway .

And of course when do you send out that authorisation , If the line is going to be shut for half an hour then clearly it isn't justified to start getting taxis . When it is closed for 5 then yes clearly staff on the ground need the auhtority to get people moving .

Normal experience is treaspass incidents are resolved swiftly , and indeed somewhere like that close to the centre of Manchester you would expect police response to be pretty swift from both the BTP and Greater Manchester Police . Any other resources like Ambulance or Fire should also be pretty swift .

I dont think anybody would have expectred 4-5 hours later the line would still be blocked .

 

[185]

Normal experience is trespass incidents are resolved swiftly , and indeed somewhere like that close to the centre of Manchester you would expect police response to be pretty swift from both the BTP and Greater Manchester Police . Any other resources like Ambulance or Fire should also be pretty swift .

I don't think anybody would have expected 4-5 hours later the line would still be blocked .

Thing which bothers me, is that there is little 'real' public scrutiny of BTP, and no-one to look at precisely what went on in major stoppages like this. What could have been done differently, and what lessons have been learnt.

Some months ago, I chased BTP HQ on an FOI request and dealt with a furious, horrid extremely defensive person who was desperate to (not bother to) obtain set of statistics claiming it was a vexatious request - I'm sure the 30,000+ stranded for five hours on the WCML wouldn't have called it vexatious. Needless to say, when an MP asked for them on my behalf, the request was quickly dealt with, albeit very reluctantly.

BTP Control are extremely reluctant to let the local cops take a job, even if it doesn't involve going trackside. One instance last year, staff stopped a train at a station yards from a large local police station however BTP insisted on taking the job, a religious hate crime, and drove 90 minutes - 60 miles from their nearest base. When they arrived, they tried to play down the incident, and their delay caused the part cancellation of the train stranding hundreds - many of them just don't care.

I've asked my MP to push the two relevant ministers to look at the way BTP attend incidents and ask them to accept that other forces must attend grade one emergency incidents where BTP are more that ten minutes away.

 

[LowLevel]

Thing which bothers me, is that there is little 'real' public scrutiny of BTP, and no-one to look at precisely what went on in major stoppages like this. What could have been done differently, and what lessons have been learnt.

Some months ago, I chased BTP HQ on an FOI request and dealt with a furious, horrid extremely defensive person who was desperate to (not bother to) obtain set of statistics claiming it was a vexatious request - I'm sure the 30,000+ stranded for five hours on the WCML wouldn't have called it vexatious. Needless to say, when an MP asked for them on my behalf, the request was quickly dealt with, albeit very reluctantly.

BTP Control are extremely reluctant to let the local cops take a job, even if it doesn't involve going trackside. One instance last year, staff stopped a train at a station yards from a large local police station however BTP insisted on taking the job, a religious hate crime, and drove 90 minutes - 60 miles from their nearest base. When they arrived, they tried to play down the incident, and their delay caused the part cancellation of the train stranding hundreds - many of them just don't care.

I've asked my MP to push the two relevant ministers to look at the way BTP attend incidents and ask them to accept that other forces must attend grade one emergency incidents where BTP are more that ten minutes away.

To be fair this surprises me a little as whenever I've called 999 for help rather than BTP (whom I only ever text) - (and I only call 999 when it's an actual emergency, never for something like a ticket irregularity) I can't remember an incident where I've had anything other than a swift response from local police, quite often mob handed, followed up afterwards by BTP.

 

[muz379]

Thing which bothers me, is that there is little 'real' public scrutiny of BTP, and no-one to look at precisely what went on in major stoppages like this. What could have been done differently, and what lessons have been learnt.

I know following major incidents like this all relevant parties do review their performance and identify any areas for development , not sure in what capacity BTP feed into those . But no doubt at the very least NWR will have some questions about this incident .

It's been a few years now but when I was at a TOC I know that a local BTP inspector used to attend quarterly meetings with the local management and reps to answer questions / report on what they had been doing .

 

[Krokodil]

Are RAIB interested? They've investigated mass strandings before

 

[185]

To be fair this surprises me a little as whenever I've called 999 for help rather than BTP (whom I only ever text) - (and I only call 999 when it's an actual emergency, never for something like a ticket irregularity) I can't remember an incident where I've had anything other than a swift response from local police, quite often mob handed, followed up afterwards by BTP.

In this instance, 999 was called - not BTP. As a courtesy the local forced notified BTP. BTP insisted that it's their job and told the local force not to attend. BTP drove for 90 minutes. Not only did they downgrade the incident - an insult to the victim, their intervention caused 400 passengers to be kicked off a delayed train mid-route.

Make no mistake, some BTP officers are excellent.

 

[Bikeman78]

Another ridiculous scenario. Yes, if the person is distressed they need to be treated with as much respect and dignity as possible but another one of this situations has resulted in hundreds of delayed and cancelled trains, over 11000 delay minutes and hundreds or thousands of people being stranded on board trains with no facilities for between 3 and 5 hours.

I hate to say it but if the person refuses to move from a switched off overhead line gantry, or indeed comes down but keeps climbing back up when approached, getting them off it is the priority even if it results in physical injury.

It is an extreme case where the safety of a large number of people has been jeopardised in order not to risk the safety of someone being disruptive by their own volition.

Well said. My mental health has been very bad for a lot of the past year but at no point have I felt the urge to run around on a railway line.

 

[Russel]

Why does this keep being allowed to happen?

Do the BTP not have tazers?

Even if it results in physical harm, the needs of one person who's put himself in a position of danger should not be put above the needs of thousands of others just trying to go about their daily lives.

 

[JordR]

Tazering seems a bit extreme, I'm not even sure if you can safely fire them upwards?

I think pulling someone down from a height unlikely to cause serious injury is probably justifiable after a warning though.

 

[tehmarks]

Even if it results in physical harm, the needs of one person who's put himself in a position of danger should not be put above the needs of thousands of others just trying to go about their daily lives.

I think in the hierarchy of needs, the needs of the person who is putting themselves at risk of serious harm due to a medical episode are greater than the needs of thousands of people going to or from work, or social events, or even, dare I say it, funerals. That's no different to the needs of the heart attack patient on the train trumping the needs of the same delayed travelling public. To think otherwise is simply callous and selfish.

How do you even propose to get someone down from height with the equipment of the average police person, safely or otherwise, without them risking their own personal safety?

I'm sure the police exhausted the options actually available to them at the time.

 

[Krokodil]

I think in the hierarchy of needs, the needs of the person who is putting themselves at risk of serious harm due to a medical episode are greater than the needs of thousands of people going to or from work, or social events, or even, dare I say it, funerals.

Hundreds - if not thousands - of passengers were more than just waiting at stations, they were trapped on trains for several hours. That's not just an inconvenience, that's potentially dangerous.

How do you even propose to get someone down from height with the equipment of the average police person, safely or otherwise, without them risking their own personal safety?

The incident started around 1400. As far as I'm aware the offender didn’t get into a position necessitating OHLE switch off until at least 1830. It's possible that they were previously in another dangerous position (on a bridge parapet for example), but not on the OHLE. I would very much like to know why BTP were refusing the MOM's requests to move trains under caution, even just to get the stranded trains on the Stockport lines (so furthest from the individual) to a platform.

No word from RAIB yet on whether they're opening an investigation, but it's only Monday. I'd very much like to read a report into the handling of this, just like the Lewisham one.

 

[66701GBRF]

No word from RAIB yet on whether they're opening an investigation, but it's only Monday. I'd very much like to read a report into the handling of this, just like the Lewisham one.

This was a police led incident, it wasn't a railway failing. RAIB will not be interested imo.

 

[DaventryRabbit]

regardless of the circumstances the communication of information was really poor. The poor bloke at Buxton was mobbed by people, many of whom did not seem to have English as a first language. There needs to be a devolution of authority to those on the ground to sort out cabs etc to get people away. There was a gap from 1613 to 2255 for trains leaving Buxton for Manchester.

Several passengers were going to London but we couldn't persuade them to join us in a cab to Macclesfield because the screens were showing an 1844 departure as on time when it was clear to wasn't going to run. I wonder if they got home!

In time of perturbation the screens really need to be blanked and only be turned on when a train runs.

As an aside it was utter chaos at Macclesfield. At least 3 trains worth of people milling about. I saw a Pendoliono depart north empty, cross over somewhere and run back south. i didn't know they could do that!

Could they have not run a Buxton to New Mills Newtown Shuttle? Reversal is possible there and there must have been a Unit and Crew at Buxton?
That may have hoovered up a small number of Local pax at Buxton, maybe not much in the grand scheme of things but....

 

[Signal Head]

It is also possible to turn trains back at Stockport station from P3&4 on the down to P1&2 on the Up via a shunt on the viaduct . I know NWR & TOC's aren't keen on shunting with trains in passenger service . But that probably wouldn't be an issue anyway because anyone on trains on the down at stockport is going to be wanting to go towards manchester anyway and the purpose of crossing trains onto the up is to send them back away from manchester . Even if people did want to go back with the train , you just empty it out , tell them to make their way over to the other platform and shunt the train empty .

It's been done loaded, and in recent years too.
I was on a TPE for Manchester which got stuck at Stockport owing to some issue nearer Manchester (can't remember what).
Eventually we pulled onto the viaduct and waited. I'd assumed when we set off that we'd be going via Guide Bridge and reverse, but no, set back over the crossover onto the Up, then to New Mills South Junction where another reversal, also on shunts, got us routed via Marple & Bradbury.

I presumed no TPE staff sign Heaton Norris to Guide Bridge.

 

[markymark2000]

What gets me is that during these incidents, is seeing how some train operators respond. Some train operator just give up and try to run a minimal service that they can get away with, rather than trying to get people even slightly closer to their destination or inconvenience as few people as possible. I have some sympathy for some operators such as Avanti and Northern but it does seem that situations like this are seen as an easy way to get trains back to the depot early and cut services. They don't need to care about the cost as any taxis or replacement buses as that cost is just being sent to Network Rail.


What I mean by this is, TFW South Wales - Manchester services mostly terminated at Crewe. Every time someone breaks a fingernail and TFW cancel Crewe - Manchester and don't give a stuff. They had the stock and staff as they would have already booked to run through to Manchester and so why couldn't they extend all services to Wilmslow to turnaround there? For passengers travelling northbound, they are closer to Manchester (by quite a bit), others may be able to get lifts from Wilmslow or use some local buses to get onwards from there. For Southbound passengers it would have meant anyone boarding at Wilmslow (given Avanti were understandably up the wall) a chance to get to Crewe for onward travel. This would reduce the number of passengers affected by the incident.
Similarly Manchester - North Wales services ended at Warrington Bank Quay. Do TFW staff not sign Earlestown P3 so they could turnback? Not ideal given, passengers could have use TFW to Earlestown for connections to Manchester Victoria or Liverpool or Newton Le Willows passengers could have gotten a lift/local bus 10 minutes up the road.

East Midlands Railway prioritised getting their trains back to the East Midlands. No attempt to run trains to Stockport to turn them around there. Or at worst case, offer trains to Hazel Grove but tell people that there is no onward travel from there and that the choice is wait at Sheffield, use an alternative route, or go to Hazel Grove and find your own way onwards (with of course the 192 bus running to Stockport Manchester frequently). Again, given staff and stock would have already been allocated to these runs, the staff/stock issue isn't really there.

Cross Country did their usual and cancelled everything between Manchester and Birmingham New Street, with zero care in the world for passengers. Why couldn't they turning trains at Stoke (as they did at the very start of the incident) or Macclesfield (Avanti ran some services to Macclesfield). Instead just abandon everyone at Birmingham and hope they find their way from there. Standard pitiful response from Cross Country on the long distance network.


Northern, while I have some sympathy for them and their situation (given staff bases, the electric being of in some areas etc), surely they could have done something between Buxton and Hazel Grove/Stockport. They have a staff depot in Buxton and trains were stuck that side of the block. Various trains at Manchester Airport, surely they could have got a guard and driver to run Manchester Airport - Crewe shuttles (so people could connect onto Metrolink into Manchester) rather than abandoning it. Mid Cheshire Line had 2x150s which terminated at Altrincham and rather than try to get staff to them to run back to Chester and run some kind of service, they kept the train at Altrincham for an hour then ran it to Stockport to add it to the congestion.

TPE on North Trans Pennine could have done a few things better (not having trains block Victoria for over an hour waiting for their WTT return, and instead stepped up the trains to return east on the next service, and trying to run South Pennine services to Stockport) but on the whole, I think they seemed to run the best service given the disruption, including WCML services reaching Manchester Piccadilly in most cases.