Stockport to Whaley Bridge.: Northern evening restrictions?

[dggar]

I wish to make a return trip from Stockport to Whaley Bridge.
Dep Stockport 10.01
Dep Whaley Bridge 15.39.

The fare comes up on National Rail and the Northern sites as being Anytime.

The departure from Whaley Bridge at 14.41 shows as Off Peak.

The Northern site states the evening restrictions apply after 16.01.

Why is the Off Peak fare not available for the 15.39 departure.

 

[LexyBoy]

At a guess, the journey planners are barring journeys which call at stations on the barred list during the evening peak period. The restriction differs from e.g. LM's in that it specifically forbids changing onto trains leaving between 1600 and 1830 even when the journey starts before that:

Not valid on trains timed to depart before 08:45 or after 16:00 and before 18:30.
The restriction after 16:00 and before 18:30 includes any connecting train departing during this period (or re-commencing your journey following a break of journey) within the following areas:
Transport for Greater Manchester area plus Alderley Edge, Birchwood, Burscough Bridge, Buxton, Chapel-en-le-Firth, Disley, Dove Holes, Earlestown, Furness Vale, Handforth, Hoscar, New Mills Central, New Mills Newtown, Newton-le-Willows, Padgate, Parbold, Styal, Warrington Bank Quay, Warrington Central, Whaley Bridge and Wilmslow;
Travel South Yorkshire area plus, Darton, Denby Dale, Moorthorpe and South Elmsall;
West Yorkshire Metro area plus Cononley, Harrogate, Hornbeam Park, Knaresborough, Pannal, Skipton, Starbeck and Weeton.

The ticket is valid for the journey you plan to make.

 

[dggar]

At a guess, the journey planners are barring journeys which call at stations on the barred list during the evening peak period. The restriction differs from e.g. LM's in that it specifically forbids changing onto trains leaving between 1600 and 1830 even when the journey starts before that:


The ticket is valid for the journey you plan to make.

If the ticket is valid for travel from Whaley Bridge departing at 15.39 why is it not shown as available on the National Rail journey planner and on Northern's booking site?

 

[LexyBoy]

Because journey planning software doesn't correctly apply the restrictions, which are inconsistent and often unclearly written. (If my guess is correct).

 

[Merseysider]

NRE is showing the correct (off-peak) ticket for me.

If your journey continues into the peak but you don't change trains, you can use an off-peak ticket.
If your journey continues into the peak but you do change trains, you can't use an off-peak ticket. :roll:

I've found this restriction has actually been implemented correctly by the journey planner on all occasions.

 

[Leeds1970]

Northern peak restrictions: for journeys made wholly within the relevant boundary - state that if you travel between 16:01 and 18:29 you need an any time ticket. Additionally if you start your journey before 16:01 and change trains en route, for the remaining part of your journey an any time ticket is required.
Examples (trains are fictional for illustrative purposes)
15. 59 NT skipton - Leeds = off peak
16.05 NT skipton -Leeds = anytime
15.59 TPX Huddersfield - Garforth direct = off peak
15.59 TPX Huddersfield - Crossgates changing at Leeds =off peak to Leeds then (according to Northern) an anytime is required for the Leeds to crossgates section.
What northern is stating is total rubbish. Providing that you remain on the platform side of the barriers (where you change trains) your off peak ticket IS (legally) valid, for the remaining part of your journey.
Another flaw = travel between 16.01 and 18.29 from Leeds to Knaresbourgh (inclusive) an anytime ticket is required.. However if your ticket is ‘any permitted route’ you can go via York on an off peak ticket as you are crossing out of the boundary. There are also a couple of price anomalies on some routes where booking to the next station over the boundary (off peak allowed) is cheaper than the peak fare to the station before the boundary. NORTHERN FAIL (again)!

 

[Deerfold]

What northern is stating is total rubbish. Providing that you remain on the platform side of the barriers (where you change trains) your off peak ticket IS (legally) valid, for the remaining part of your journey.

It's very restrictive compared with most off-peak restriction codes but I'd be wary of declaring it illegal/unenforceable.

 

[Starmill]

What Deerfold said. Although you may wish to read Barry Doe's views!

Furthermore, it's exceptionally difficult to enforce practically, for varying reasons, not least that very few staff understand the restrictions (from my experience) and ticket checks are very rare at these times now. Party this is due to ticket checks being comparatively rare on Northern as it is, partly because the trains are busy and partly because some Northern guards have decided not to check tickets at these times. Take from this what you will.

 

[button_boxer]

Another flaw = travel between 16.01 and 18.29 from Leeds to Knaresbourgh (inclusive) an anytime ticket is required.. However if your ticket is ‘any permitted route’ you can go via York on an off peak ticket as you are crossing out of the boundary.

Whether you are "crossing out of the boundary" on a particular route is irrelevant, what matters is the wording of the restriction code for the specific ticket you want to use. For a Leeds to Knaresborough off-peak day return it says very simply that it is not valid on any train timed to depart between 1601 and 1829 inclusive. It makes no mention of any "boundary" - it's not valid between those times even if you travel via York.

A Leeds to York off-peak day return ticket has no evening restriction.

 

[Starmill]

Whether you are "crossing out of the boundary" on a particular route is irrelevant, what matters is the wording of the restriction code for the specific ticket you want to use. For a Leeds to Knaresborough off-peak day return it says very simply that it is not valid on any train timed to depart between 1601 and 1829 inclusive. It makes no mention of any "boundary" - it's not valid between those times even if you travel via York.

A Leeds to York off-peak day return ticket has no evening restriction.

This is directly contradictory to the information on Northern's site...

 

[Leeds1970]

northern state the peak restriction applies if travelling WHOLLY within the boundary. going via York (if any route permitted) crosses out of the Peak restricted area.

 

[button_boxer]

I see what you mean, Northern's attempt to explain the restrictions in plain language on their website is somewhat at odds with the way ticket restrictions actually work. They talk about "journeys wholly within the Transport for Greater Manchester, Travel South Yorkshire and Metro (West Yorkshire) areas" when what they really should say is tickets (not journeys) that start and end within the same PTE area.

 

[Howardh]

I see what you mean, Northern's attempt to explain the restrictions in plain language on their website is somewhat at odds with the way ticket restrictions actually work. They talk about "journeys wholly within the Transport for Greater Manchester, Travel South Yorkshire and Metro (West Yorkshire) areas" when what they really should say is tickets (not journeys) that start and end within the same PTE area.

Are these three areas actually classed as one? It reads like it is, but I reckon not, as going from Greater Manchester to Huddersfield doesn't become peak in the afternoon?

 

[button_boxer]

Are these three areas actually classed as one? It reads like it is, but I reckon not, as going from Greater Manchester to Huddersfield doesn't become peak in the afternoon?

Tickets with both ends in the same PTE area have the new restriction codes such as ND that include evening restrictions, but tickets that start in one PTE and end in another do not. Manchester to Huddersfield off-peak day return takes I1 or B1 (depending on the route), which both allow travel any time from 0930 with no evening restrictions.

 

[yorkie]

northern state the peak restriction applies if travelling WHOLLY within the boundary. going via York (if any route permitted) crosses out of the Peak restricted area.

Agreed. York booking office agreed too!

 

[TUC]

Tickets with both ends in the same PTE area have the new restriction codes such as ND that include evening restrictions, but tickets that start in one PTE and end in another do not. Manchester to Huddersfield off-peak day return takes I1 or B1 (depending on the route), which both allow travel any time from 0930 with no evening restrictions.

So, given Northern's claim that the restrictions cover where one changes trains within a PTE area, where do that leave validity for someone who does this but has a ticket with a different restriction code?

 

[Leeds1970]

Quite a few people are of the opinion that Northern are trying to get one over on the P.T.E's by only restricting their area's(to get round cheap fares such as the old evening flat fare in G.M). basically biting the hand that feeds them. have spoken to union x regarding the changing trains= peak ticket required - they are privately advising members not to excess passengers.

 

[Merseysider]

Quite a few people are of the opinion that Northern are trying to get one over on the P.T.E's by only restricting their area's(to get round cheap fares such as the old evening flat fare in G.M). basically biting the hand that feeds them. have spoken to union x regarding the changing trains= peak ticket required - they are privately advising members not to excess passengers.

I'm not quite sure why PTE areas were chosen, perhaps because it was easier and avoids penalising long-distance passengers?
I've been given the nod once or twice with an off-peak ticket despite expecting to be excessed. But I doubt any Northern staff are going against orders.

Have STM security even figured out how to issue these excess tickets yet?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm not quite sure why PTE areas were chosen, perhaps because it was easier and avoids penalising long-distance passengers?....

It's very much easier and simpler. Northern essentially control the fares in the PTE areas (though officially they are set by the PTEs), beyond those borders you get a mix of Northern, TPE, Cross Country, East Coast and Virgin Trains.

 

[Starmill]

It's very much easier and simpler. Northern essentially control the fares in the PTE areas (though officially they are set by the PTEs), beyond those borders you get a mix of Northern, TPE, Cross Country, East Coast and Virgin Trains.

This makes no sense. Every other TOC manages to alter the restriction codes on flows it prices without the use of a PTE.

That doesn't make it any less bizarre that the areas where Northern gets money from governmental organisations were the ones singled out for more pain! The exception is Newcastle to Hexham, where the fares within the PTE area are not restricted.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But I doubt any Northern staff are going against orders.

Staff are not ordered to check tickets. Certainly not guards. There are guards who are not checking tickets in the evening peak even where they might be able to. As I said before, that's probably in some cases where they wouldn't anyway, and there are some who are not doing it because of the evening peak restrictions.

What I am more concerned about is a few TPE guards' unbearably flawed understanding of the restrictions!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Have STM security even figured out how to issue these excess tickets yet?

They don't seem to know when any ticket is or isn't valid, I think the only thing they look at is the date.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

This makes no sense. Every other TOC manages to alter the restriction codes on flows it prices without the use of a PTE.

That doesn't make it any less bizarre that the areas where Northern gets money from governmental organisations were the ones singled out for more pain! The exception is Newcastle to Hexham, where the fares within the PTE area are not restricted....

Shall I try to point it out to you?

Broad Green and Wavertree Tech. Park are stations on the Chat Moss line. Broad Green is one station closer to Manchester, but Wavertree gets more services. All services from these stations are operated by Northern.

Broad Green to Manchester Stns (set by Northern)
Anytime Day Return £14.20
Off-Peak Day Return £11.90

Wavertree Tech. Park to Manchester Stns (set by TPE)
Anytime Day Return £17.20
Off-Peak Day Return £12.00

If Northern put the evening restriction on all fares that they set and 100 people from Broad Green, and 100 people from Wavertree, travel into Manchester after 0930, and leave Manchester between 1600 and 1830, how much extra revenue will Northern make?

 

[Merseysider]

Northern wouldn't make any more money, as everyone in the know would buy the Wavertree ticket, paying an extra 10p, of which TPE would probably get the lion's share of the revenue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern wouldn't make any more money, as everyone in the know would buy the Wavertree ticket, paying an extra 10p, of which TPE would probably get the lion's share of the revenue.

Yet another reason why the Northern-TPE split makes *no* sense.

Neil

 

[Merseysider]

They don't seem to know when any ticket is or isn't valid, I think the only thing they look at is the date.

I think that's all they're 'trained' to do - and as another forum member said recently, agency staff are expected to pick it up on the job.

I'll try getting through Picc's gateline later with an Oyster card

Edit: Didn't try Oyster but the Key underneath my railcard got me through P13/14. Jesus Christ, these guys need some training!

 

[Deerfold]

Northern wouldn't make any more money, as everyone in the know would buy the Wavertree ticket, paying an extra 10p, of which TPE would probably get the lion's share of the revenue.

Really?

Broad Green and Wavertree Tech. Park are stations on the Chat Moss line. Broad Green is one station closer to Manchester, but Wavertree gets more services. All services from these stations are operated by Northern.

I wouldn't like to guarantee that TPE wouldn't get anything through the wonders or ORCATS but surely Northern would get most of both fares, no matter who sets it.

 

[Starmill]

Shall I try to point it out to you?

Broad Green and Wavertree Tech. Park are stations on the Chat Moss line. Broad Green is one station closer to Manchester, but Wavertree gets more services. All services from these stations are operated by Northern.

Broad Green to Manchester Stns (set by Northern)
Anytime Day Return £14.20
Off-Peak Day Return £11.90

Wavertree Tech. Park to Manchester Stns (set by TPE)
Anytime Day Return £17.20
Off-Peak Day Return £12.00

If Northern put the evening restriction on all fares that they set and 100 people from Broad Green, and 100 people from Wavertree, travel into Manchester after 0930, and leave Manchester between 1600 and 1830, how much extra revenue will Northern make?

Is the ticket from Wavertree Technology Park valid via Liverpool? If yes, this sounds like a perfectly normal situation that already exists elsewhere. If not, Northern should clearly be in control of that flow.

I think it's merely symptomatic of the Northern franchise as a whole. Stick many unprofitable routes together and they will struggle to make money. How is that a surprise?

I'd love to see, in a year's time, what they have to say about how much the 'subsidy' has gone down as a result of this.

 

[Leeds1970]

Re STM security - all they are trained to do is operate (says loosely) ticket machines. with regards to tickets they are only checking dates- at a certain station in W.Y they will let you through with a first bus day ticket providing its the right date!!

 

[yorkie]

Is the ticket from Wavertree Technology Park valid via Liverpool?

The answers to this have been split to Permitted Routes Wavertree Technology Park to Manchesterhttp://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=109351

 

[dggar]

I wish to make a return trip from Stockport to Whaley Bridge.
Dep Stockport 10.01
Dep Whaley Bridge 15.39.

The fare comes up on National Rail and the Northern sites as being Anytime.

The departure from Whaley Bridge at 14.41 shows as Off Peak.

The Northern site states the evening restrictions apply after 16.01.

Why is the Off Peak fare not available for the 15.39 departure.

I started this thread after trying to get a return fare from Levenshulme to Whaley bridge, the national rail site told me that only Anytime returns were available for the 15.39 departure. ( I was getting the same answer if I changed Levenshulme to Stockport.)

I raised this with Northern rail and yesterday received this reply.

Northern Rail 408716

10 December 2014

Our Reference NR/ 408716

Dear Mr Xxxx

Thank you for your e-mail, which I received recently.

The journey back requires a change at Stockport after 16.01, so wouldn't be valid on the 16.29 train Stockport to Levenshulme but would be valid up to that point.

Yours sincerely


Neil Hebden
Customer Relations Officer
FREEPOST RLSL-ABEC-BGUU
Northern Customer Relations
First Floor, The Travel Centre
City Railway Station
Leeds
LS1 4DY

Tel 0333 222 0125
Fax 0113 2479 059

.

As this change would involve remaining on the platform at Stockport is this correct?

 

[Merseysider]

Yes, unfortunately so.

The restriction bars off-peak tickets on all departures between 1601 and 1829, whether that is the only train you're using or if you've just come off another train.