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Carmont (near Stonehaven) derailment - 12 August 2020

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Tazi Hupefi

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Previously been mentioned that the GSMR signal might have been out of range on this part of track.

That seems perhaps a bit unlikely if the driver had only shortly before been presumably communicating with his control room and the signalman to change direction and shunt the train on to the other line in the same sort of area?
 
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bunnahabhain

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Regarding the communication, I’ve just been talking to a friend. Apparently there’s a radio system called GSMR which sends out emergency calls.

However, even if the driver is incapacitated, after a few minutes, if the driver doesn’t press down a pedal (deadman’s pedal so to speak), it triggers the alarm automatically, think he said DSD Alarm or something like that.

So unless the GSMR equipment got damaged immediately when the incident happened or there was no mobile signal an alarm call would have automatically been sent within minutes.
There's a set in each power car, what I don't know is whether a handset was installed in the guards office. Provided the system wasn't destroyed on impact it would have sent out a distress call to the controlling signalbox approximately 90 seconds after the vigilance device lost detection.
 

DerekC

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I am very shocked like everyone else and thinking about the people involved and their families. Speculation is most unhelpful. All I will say is that if you look carefully at all the images already available online you can work out for yourself that the train was running northwards on the right line, that it passed through a cutting and derailed at some time prior to arriving at the bridge, that the leading power car plus one coach went over the parapet and down the embankment and that the second and third coaches overturned and/or were heavily damaged as the rest of the train came to a halt. Any more is pure guesswork and should be left until we have a preliminary report from RAIB.
 

Harbon 1

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Regarding the communication, I’ve just been talking to a friend. Apparently there’s a radio system called GSMR which sends out emergency calls.

However, even if the driver is incapacitated, after a few minutes, if the driver doesn’t press down a pedal (deadman’s pedal so to speak), it triggers the alarm automatically, think he said DSD Alarm or something like that.

So unless the GSMR equipment got damaged immediately when the incident happened or there was no mobile signal an alarm call would have automatically been sent within minutes.
That is true, but presumably relies on the radio still working. There was a derailment a few years back where the main circuit breaker(?) tripped and power was cut to the radio. However seeing the amount of damage here, I'd be surprised if the radio was still operating at all.
 

py_megapixel

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Is DSD the same thing as the Vigilance device?

Edit - just for clarity, I've already recieved a couple of answers to this question which you can find further down this page.
 
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Journeyman

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Is DSD the same thing as the Vigilance device?

Driver's safety device needs to be constantly depressed, by foot or hand. Vigilance buttons are an additional thing that needs to be pushed periodically, I think. I'm sure someone else will confirm/correct.
 

Domh245

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Does the back car not have OTMR too and would that then not duplicate as a failsafe should something like this occur?

The rear powercar would have an OTMR unit as well, which AIUI will have been recording the same as the front powercar, so in the event that the front OTMR unit was destroyed, the rear will have acted as a failsafe. OTMR standards are defined here if you want a bit of light reading as well as thorough descriptions of how they work and what they record. As for the FFCCTV question, I'm afraid I don't know the answer on that
 

The_Train

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I don't think it hit a landslip. It looks like possibly the tracks was undermined.
Of course i'm just speculating and am no expert.
'Hitting' landslip would possibly be also the land slipping from under/to the side of the rails leaving PC & leading coach to go sideways down the resultant slip, following the earth - not the earth slipping from above down to the track....from the photos, it looks like the former.

Edit: to say 'snap' to the poster above mine!

Must admit, this was my thinking once I'd seen a few pictures earlier today, particularly the one of the rear power car on the bridge. As with @skawtish, I am definitely no expert and I am also speculating (which ironically is something I have tried my best to avoid doing during the ongoing incident). I guess we will all get to hear the facts in due course once the RAIB complete their investigation
 

YorkshireBear

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Arieal imagery seems to suggest to me it might have been upright until striking the bridge. If so even more bad luck.
 

Beatbox00

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If the master controller is in forward or reverse and the DSD pedal is released an automatic GSMR emergency call is made.
 

43066

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Is DSD the same thing as the Vigilance device?

Separate systems which both operate through the same foot pedal. DSD applies the brake after a few seconds if you remove your foot from the pedal. If you don’t move any of the controls for a few seconds (and the direction switch is in forward) the vigilance alarm sounds and you need to release and depress the same pedal to prevent a brake application.
 

XCTurbostar

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Just for reference. It is unlikely to be a GSMR Issue.. the nearest FTN GSMR Node Mast (6300) is located 0.91 Miles away as the crow flies to the south and 1.52Miles away to the east (5427).
 

Tazi Hupefi

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I wonder if there is perhaps an overlooked defect in that if a train is making an emergency brake action- is it taken out of forward or reverse, and thus no GSMR DSD Alarm would be made?

tried to quote the above post from beatbox unsuccessfully.
 

Swanny200

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Whilst a bit of leeway is understandable, I think it reasonable to expect news organisations to present accurate version of events to the public, and at the time this was reported the type of train was perhaps one of the few things that was apparent, and thus the one thing that could be relied upon to be correct. Whilst the story is one of tragedy, I feel article readers would have been better informed with a potted description of the train such as: 'The HST was originally introduced in 1976 for high speed service on non electrified routes. One of the most distinctive train classes on the network, it is recognised as a British design icon, and its perennial popularity with passengers is one of the reasons it was selected for Scotrail's '7Cities' express service. Despite its age, the HST is considered a fundamentally sound design and has been extensively rebuilt prior to its most recent deployment.'

As soon as I read on the BBC this morning and it was said that the service was a locomotive and 4 carriages, my immediate thought was it will be an HST, so 4+2, most people with any UK railway experience especially with Scotrail and their recent stock would have known that it was an HST The media are always at it, you are supposed to get the facts right not fudge them first and then change them as you go along, until an hour ago the BBC were still running in their livefeed that the carriages had gone down the embankment.

Even a Breaking news, basic summary and a to follow would have been better than what they ran with first, this morning.
 

Horizon22

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Sort of, the DSD is the depressed 'dead mans' pedal, vigilance is the beeps that have to be acknowledged by releasing and depressing the DSD

Every 2 minutes I believe?

It truly is shocking seeing the state and the orientation of the coaches from the aerial perspective, thoughts are with the passengers, staff and their relatives & friendsat this difficult time.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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This from the BBC website live updates page;

Posted at 17:07
Previous landslides on the line at Carmont
The stretch of railway line where the derailment occurred has had problems with mudslides in the past.
On 22 October, 2002 the Aberdeen to Dundee line was closed due to a landslide at Carmont during torrential rain and gales.
And a Network Rail report from 2014 included Carmont in a "list of sites which in recent years have been greatly affected by earthslips”.
The track operator’s report said improvement work had been carried out at Carmont, specifically, “remediation of cutting slope following emergency, after mudslide due to flooding”.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-53751774

I wonder if this relates in any way to the work that was ongoing in the vicinity, although of course there is no suggestion whatsoever that the work in any way contributed to the accident.
 
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38Cto15E

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Condolences to the Rail fraternity, especially all affected by this terrible accident.

I will be waiting for RAIB for full details but it appears to me that the train heading north 2B13 was very lucky and 1T08 which was following 2B13 northwards wasn't.
 

neonison

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Naturally I have every sympathy with those and the families of those affected but also as a student of railway safety many of us want to understand the exact circumstances.

The history and study of incidents is not ghoulish but a genuine interest in how every incident is an opportunity to understand and learn to make things yet safer.
 

Harbon 1

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Every 2 minutes I believe?

It truly is shocking seeing the state and the orientation of the coaches from the aerial perspective, thoughts are with the passengers, staff and their relatives & friendsat this difficult time.
Every 60 seconds I think, but on some classes it is linked to the movement of controls, so the timer is reset every time power or brake controls are moved.
 

LAX54

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Just for reference. It is unlikely to be a GSMR Issue.. the nearest FTN GSMR Node Mast (6300) is located 0.91 Miles away as the crow flies to the south and 1.52Miles away to the east (5427).
Unless the accident took out the GSM-R on the train.
 

the sniper

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All this talk about wrong direction moves is pointless.

Indeed.

Regarding the communication, I’ve just been talking to a friend. Apparently there’s a radio system called GSMR which sends out emergency calls.

However, even if the driver is incapacitated, after a few minutes, if the driver doesn’t press down a pedal (deadman’s pedal so to speak), it triggers the alarm automatically, think he said DSD Alarm or something like that.

So unless the GSMR equipment got damaged immediately when the incident happened or there was no mobile signal an alarm call would have automatically been sent within minutes.

A lot of faith is put in GSMR nowadays, in the industry and this forum. But a collision with a cow managed to knock it OOU on a unit in an incident a few years ago. Given the forces and damage involved in this accident, I think we can assume the GSMR would have been destroyed.
 

43066

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I wonder if there is perhaps an overlooked defect in that if a train is making an emergency brake action- is it taken out of forward or reverse, and thus no GSMR DSD Alarm would be made?

tried to quote the above post unsuccessfully.

You wouldn’t typically take the train out of forward while on the move under any circumstances.

The GSMR also has a REC (“railway emergency call”) function which will trigger an emergency broadcast to the signaller and all other trains in the radio cell at the press of one button. Obviously we don’t know whether the driver in this case had time to make a broadcast.
 

swt_passenger

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The BBC 1746 update is still fairly categoric that the train was heading south when it derailed. I take it that’s considered wrong?
 
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