Carmont (near Stonehaven) derailment - 12 August 2020

[WestRiding]

In these sorts of conditions with water being above the rail in some parts this morning, would there have been a reduced speed limit set in the rulebook or would it be driver discretion (I am not for one second saying the driver is at fault as it is obvious that it is not). I am also assuming that there would have been adhesion factors to play with too?

There would only be a restriction or block as per the rules, if someone knew about water over the railway. Someones has to find it first. Looks like this train found it. (if of course it was even a factor)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Probably since Polmont sadly

I seem to remember that speculation about DVTs after Heck, similarly to Polmont.

As an aside on Sky News reporting that one vehicle "just looked like a locomotive": Sky will probably make their reporting available to Fox News in the US, where AIUI ex-locomotives are (or were) often used as control cabs to avoid having to run round. Just a thought.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

This is absolutely dreadful.

Have all of the passengers and staff now been found, either living or deceased?

Yes, according to the BTP statement.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

My thoughts are with those who sadly died from this tragic incident.

 

[yorkie]

This is a fast moving thread; can I ask people please do check what has already been posted before posting, thanks.

Also just another reminder that any concerns regarding any posts must be reported using the report button; no such concerns should be posted in the thread, and any concerning content must not be replied to, quoted, or referred to on the thread please.

This is absolutely dreadful.

Have all of the passengers and staff now been found, either living or deceased?

See BTP statement in a post made a few minutes ago; post #336

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/stonehaven-derailment.207648/post-4717429

 

[Tom Quinne]

Awful situation, and it's difficult to imagine how it could hae been entirely prevented, though it might be interesting to find out in the eventual RAIB report how quickly the train was moving - in an area with that sort of topography where a train has had to reverse due to a landslip, perhaps "dead slow" running might need to be enforced to reduce the loading on embankents that might well be weakened. R.I.P. to those who have died.

When encounter an obstruction, the train can reserve (wrong direction movement) upto 50mph on plain line, and then 10moh over points or crossings.

I’m not saying this happened, that is the rule book instruction.

I’ve had a 12 mile wrong direction move “dead slow” would have caused undue delay to the service, oh course is the key ultimately it’s up to the driver to decide the same as proceed at caution. Caution isn’t defined as a speed.

 

[syorksdeano]

Now confirmed as 3 dead. I know people are asking why the delay in the call, and I'm only assuming the delay in permission to go back due to the flooding in the area.

Thoughts are obviously with everyone involved including the person that would have given that final permission to go back.

 

[Alanko]

Absolutely no chance. It's going to take hours if not days to get suitable lifting equipment in place to start moving anything.
I'm certain as well that when reovery starts they won't just be tossing coaches on top of other coaches. That just makes a bigger mess and damages any evidence that investigators might want to collect.
What you see in the photos is how they ended up when everything stopped moving. The bottom one is inverted and everything above the window line and below the sole bar appears to have been torn away. There's another inverted but seemingly intact coach on top of it.
Horrifying.

I doubt there'd be a crane or winch on site by the time those photos were taken. I'd assume that's as they lay after the incident. Harrowing to say the least.

That makes sense, what a terrible outcome.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Thoughts and prayers with everyone involved in this harrowing incident. When I saw 'derailment' on the news, I was expecting something like Waterloo a few years ago, not this...

 

[Midnight Express]

Reported the Guard among the dead. RIP

If, as appears, both the driver and guard died in the accident (RIP), that might explain the seeming long delay in alerting the emergency services.

 

[Horizon22]

seems to me like network rail, or possibly a contractor must have been working in the vicinity. if you look at the images showing the lined up emergency vehicles you can see there is already metal sheeting down on the ground, a dumper and a port-a-loo. and in one of the images from the scene of the accident you can see a telehandler in the background.

Yes it was quoted that track workers were in close proximity and may have been some of the first people on site.

 

[Rob_76]

RAIB has sent a team of HMIs to the scene:

https://twitter.com/raibgovuk/status/1293519748014247937

We have been notified of a derailment in the Stonehaven area of Aberdeenshire where a five car passenger train has derailed. A team of RAIB inspectors are on their way to the site to conduct a preliminary examination

 

[LeeLivery]

Just seen the news and the pictures coming out. I'm totally stunned and saddened, full thoughts with everyone involved.

 

[najaB]

I’ve had a 12 mile wrong direction move “dead slow” would have caused undue delay to the service, oh course is the key ultimately it’s up to the driver to decide the same as proceed at caution. Caution isn’t defined as a speed.

Also factoring into the decisionmaking would have been that the train had already passed over the section in question, so neither the driver nor signallers would have had reason to suspect that there was anything amiss.

 

[Chris B]

Live helicopter pictures just on Sky News - could not even see the (leading presumably) loco.

If you read the whole thread, you'll discover that it was derailed, went down an embankment & caught fire. Beware, there is a photo of it alight on page 4.

 

[Dieseldriver]

When encounter an obstruction, the train can reserve (wrong direction movement) upto 50mph on plain line, and then 10moh over points or crossings.

I’m not saying this happened, that is the rule book instruction.

I’ve had a 12 mile wrong direction move “dead slow” would have caused undue delay to the service, oh course is the key ultimately it’s up to the driver to decide the same as proceed at caution. Caution isn’t defined as a speed.

That isn't the Rule Book instruction at all.

 

[Bonniepurple]

I’ve only just seen the horrendous picture on the news. Condolences to all those involved, the families waiting for news and those who are involved In the search, rescue and recovery of the wreckag.

 

[Swanny200]

If, as appears, both the driver and guard died in the accident (RIP), that might explain the seeming long delay in alerting the emergency services.

Another report stated that one member of onboard staff got to a signal box to raise the alarm (I assume they mean a lineside phone, as I assume a signal box round there would be non-existent) it kind of makes you glad that there were other members of staff onboard that would know to do this in an emergency, even more important if both Guard and Driver have indeed passed especially in such a remote place and probably carries weight when reduction in train staff gets mooted in future (although this is not a time to discuss that)

 

[w0033944]

When encounter an obstruction, the train can reserve (wrong direction movement) upto 50mph on plain line, and then 10moh over points or crossings.

I’m not saying this happened, that is the rule book instruction.

I’ve had a 12 mile wrong direction move “dead slow” would have caused undue delay to the service, oh course is the key ultimately it’s up to the driver to decide the same as proceed at caution. Caution isn’t defined as a speed.

Thanks for the information. I realise that delays would result from running at a greatly reduced speed, and that the cost-benefit analysis prior to this incident would probably have suggested that it wasn't worth implementing such a policy, but maybe this might change given what could have happened had the train been more densely-occupied?

 

[Chris B]

seems to me like network rail, or possibly a contractor must have been working in the vicinity. if you look at the images showing the lined up emergency vehicles you can see there is already metal sheeting down on the ground, a dumper and a port-a-loo. and in one of the images from the scene of the accident you can see a telehandler in the background.

Why don't people please *read* the thread before posting? I made the same points a few pages ago. Might be NR, or might be other works - both drainage & timber works seemed to be going on prior.

 

[Chris B]

Another report stated that one member of onboard staff got to a signal box to raise the alarm (I assume they mean a lineside phone, as I assume a signal box round there would be non-existent) it kind of makes you glad that there were other members of staff onboard that would know to do this in an emergency, even more important if both Guard and Driver have indeed passed especially in such a remote place and probably carries weight when reduction in train staff gets mooted in future (although this is not a time to discuss that)

Or it means someone was spreading false news without proof.....again

 

[backontrack]

Three now. What a tragedy.

 

[XCTurbostar]

Here is an Ariel image of the incident site. Image from SKY News https://news.sky.com/story/train-derails-in-aberdeenshire-emergency-services-at-the-scene-12047701

 

[w0033944]

That isn't the Rule Book instruction at all.

Could you possibly inform us as to what is in the Rule Book, please?

 

[4069]

Another report stated that one member of onboard staff got to a signal box to raise the alarm (I assume they mean a lineside phone, as I assume a signal box round there would be non-existent)

No, it meant what it said- Carmont signal box.

 

[SussexLad]

My thoughts are with the passengers, friends and family of those affected by todays events. Such sad news.

I hope the goverment makes concelling services available to everyone affected.

 

[Ianno87]

Another report stated that one member of onboard staff got to a signal box to raise the alarm (I assume they mean a lineside phone, as I assume a signal box round there would be non-existent)

There is a signal box locally at Carmont. The area appears to be Absolute Block.

 

[w0033944]

Here is an Ariel image of the incident site. Image from SKY News https://news.sky.com/story/train-derails-in-aberdeenshire-emergency-services-at-the-scene-12047701
View attachment 82148

Apears to be a Mk3 coach down the embarnkment rather than a power car, surely?

 

[Royston Vasey]

Apears to be a Mk3 coach down the embarnkment rather than a power car, surely?

The PC is just "below" the preview picture out of shot. Can be seen in other pictures

 

[LUYMun]

This is sad news. My thoughts to the families of those involved