Carmont (near Stonehaven) derailment - 12 August 2020

[Swanny200]

NR go up and down the country daily, measuring many things and landslides will certainly be one of them, but there are so many parameters that can cause them not just weather, I don't see it any different to a tyre bursting suddenly on a car for instance. Three people have lost their lives and are not going home to their families, the only thing that would have stopped this happening would have been not running at all, then what would be the point of running a railway at all?

 

[Robertj21a]

Given this is the first time a passenger on a train has died in a rail accident for 13 years I think there will be major changes to to the way railways are run to stop this happening again.

Really ? - if it's that incredibly rare I can't believe that any 'major changes' will be necessary.

 

[Howardh]

Of course something like this is tragic, but how on earth can any number of major changes guard against a sudden landslip (if that proves to be the cause)?

The weather was something like a once-in 100+ years phenomenon. Even if the area had been pronounced safe on the numerous inspections I'm sure the area would have had, can the inspectors say "unless 4" of rain falls in 15 minutes" - in which case no roads or rail could open anywhere! NB: I don't know the actual rainfall data, but understand it was beyond severe and localised.
Even when there's excessive heat, possibly causing buckling, trains can be slowed "just in case".
Anyhow, I assume all embankments and cuttings will be re-inspected as a matter of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It has a rather extreme failure mode, it just takes an awful lot to reach it. I've been in several car accidents ( I suspect I'm a bit statistically unlucky there ), never a rail or an air accident, and I'll carry on using all of them.

Personally:

Car - 2
Bicycle - about 4 (including one very serious one that very nearly killed me)
Bus - 1 (I bet most haven't! Wasn't serious but gave me a bit of whiplash for a week or two)
Train - 0
Air - 0 (and I've flown a lot more than most)

I suspect motorcycling would come up as the most dangerous, and I would probably do that if I wanted to, I don't find it attractive for various reasons, but not saying that won't change!

 

[43066]

From memory, the recording part of the OTMR is in the power car luggage van on Angel Trains power cars (as these two are), so good chance it will have survived. In any case a download will be done on the rear power car which will confirm parameters such as speed, brake position etc.

Interesting point. I had understood that the OTMR in the trailing cab didn’t record anything. I’ve been subjected to a random download where my train reversed halfway through the journey, leading cab became trailing cab, and only the portion of the journey where it had been the active driving cab was useable.

EDIT: I should say that wasn’t in an HST.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I disagree.
Awful news today, but the fact this is the first fatal accident for well over a decade demonstrates how incredibly safe this industry is.

Indeed. By a very substantial margin, that's the longest period without a fatal accident in the industry's 200-year history.

Precisely

 

[61653 HTAFC]

NR go up and down the country daily, measuring many things and landslides will certainly be one of them, but there are so many parameters that can cause them not just weather, I don't see it any different to a tyre bursting suddenly on a car for instance. Three people have lost their lives and are not going home to their families, the only thing that would have stopped this happening would have been not running at all, then what would be the point of running a railway at all?

Usually when something like a landslip occurs on the railway, it is spotted before it becomes a life-and-death situation (Lamington viaduct on the WCML for example). Unfortunately this morning circumstances combined with tragic effects. Meanwhile it seems like almost every "named storm" results in either a tragedy or a near miss with trees falling onto cars. When that happens, nobody calls for the banning of cars or widespread chopping of trees near to roads.

 

[Essan]

I disagree.

Awful news today, but the fact this is the first fatal accident for well over a decade demonstrates how incredibly safe this industry is.

I agree. A tragic event. And my thoughts to all involved. But, based on what we know so far, nothing to suggest our very safe working practices were at fault. Sadly, an act of god (whose god is a matter of debate)

 

[Class465pacer]

I'm guessing it's been a very long time since both driver and guard were killed in an accident.

19 years (Great Heck, 2001).

 

[LAX54]

If the master controller is in forward or reverse and the DSD pedal is released an automatic GSMR emergency call is made.

Is that true ?

 

[tiptoptaff]

Interesting point. I had understood that the OTMR in the trailing cab didn’t record anything. I’ve been subjected to a random download where my train reversed halfway through the journey, leading cab became trailing cab, and only the portion of the journey where it had been the active driving cab was useable.

EDIT: I should say that wasn’t in an HST.

I was under the impression it would record speed, and so would obviously show the acceleration and braking curves, but nothing else as the cab is inactive.

Leading end OTMR shows AWS warnings and our reactions to them. The rear AWS is effectively switched off when the cab isn't in us

 

[Irascible]

Personally:

Car - 2
Bicycle - about 4 (including one very serious one that very nearly killed me)
Bus - 1 (I bet most haven't! )
Train - 0
Air - 0 (and I've flown a lot more than most)

I suspect motorcycling would come up as the most dangerous, and I would probably do that if I wanted to, I don't find it attractive for various reasons, but not saying that won't change!

I believe bus is the safest mode per journey ( which just shows how you can prove anything with statistics... ). I've fallen off a motorbike enough times that I actually forgot that counts as an accident.

Interesting point. I had understood that the OTMR in the trailing cab didn’t record anything. I’ve been subjected to a random download where my train reversed halfway through the journey, leading cab became trailing cab, and only the portion of the journey where it had been the active driving cab was useable.

EDIT: I should say that wasn’t in an HST.

Given the nature of accidents that seems a slightly odd ( if understandable ) omission if so.

 

[tiptoptaff]

Is that true ?

After a delay, yes. Release the pedal and:
After 3 seconds the DSD will kick in and apply the emergency brake
After 60 seconds the vigilance alarm will sound.
30 seconds later an alarm goes off on the GSMR and it displays a warning that it is going to contact the signaller unless action is taken
30seconds later (2mins after releasing the pedal) it sends the alert to the signaller

Vigilance will also start it's process either every 60seconds or 60seconds after making a control input (stock dependant)

 

[baz962]

Every 2 minutes I believe?

It truly is shocking seeing the state and the orientation of the coaches from the aerial perspective, thoughts are with the passengers, staff and their relatives & friendsat this difficult time.

One minute

 

[LAX54]

After a delay, yes. Release the pedal and:
After 3 seconds the DSD will kick in and apply the emergency brake
After 60 seconds the vigilance alarm will sound.
30 seconds later an alarm goes off on the GSMR and it displays a warning that it is going to contact the signaller unless action is taken
30seconds later (2mins after releasing the pedal) it sends the alert to the signaller

Vigilance will also start it's process either every 60seconds or 60seconds after making a control input (stock dependant)

#
We do get a DSD alarm in the box, however I have never known REC call in these circumstances.

 

[py_megapixel]

One minute

Is it actually a straight 60 second gap, or is there some random variation introduced so that pressing it doesn't become a subconcious habit?
(Forgive my ignorance, I don't work on the railways)

 

[Driver2B]

"If the master controller is in forward or reverse and the DSD pedal is released an automatic GSMR emergency call is made."

Is that true ?

If a driver takes his/her foot off of the DSD while the master controller is in forward or reverse, an alarm will sound. The driver will then have approximately six seconds to replace his/her foot on the pedal before emergency brakes are applied. If after another 30 seconds, the driver doesn't press the DSD or move the master switch to neutral, another alarm on the GSM-R radio will sound. If after another 30 seconds, the driver still doesn't press the DSD or move the master switch to neutral, a text message will be sent to the signaller via GSM-R to report this.

 

[DidcotDickie]

From memory, the recording part of the OTMR is in the power car luggage van on Angel Trains power cars (as these two are), so good chance it will have survived. In any case a download will be done on the rear power car which will confirm parameters such as speed, brake position etc.

Wasn't that the end where the fire was in the forward power car? If the OTMR recorder didn't survive then hopefully the one in the rear power car will give investigators the information they need.

 

[najaB]

Car - 2
Bicycle - about 4 (including one very serious one that very nearly killed me)
Bus - 1 (I bet most haven't! Wasn't serious but gave me a bit of whiplash for a week or two)
Train - 0
Air - 0 (and I've flown a lot more than most)

I've been in two bus accidents and three car accidents. Nothing serious with any other method of travel.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Not really sure how to express what I'm feeling, other than sadness - my thoughts are with everyone involved & everyone in the industry at least.

I'm sure if there was a failing in GSM-R automation ( would the rear power car be able to make a panic call by itself? ) then the RAIB will have suitable recommendations.

I wonder in future whether there could be some sort of upgrade where a radio could do this...Must be a possibility...

 

[LOL The Irony]

Wasn't that the end where the fire was in the forward power car?

It was.

 

[Signal Head]

Yes, the train was heading north on the correct line after earlier travelling north wrong road and then traversing over the points to go right road at Carmont SB. The train had earlier travelled south through the area with no apparent issues - the timeline is a bit sketchy for the heading north move

From elsewhere in the BBC reporting:

"A rail industry source has confirmed that the 0638 Aberdeen to Glasgow service was heading south when it derailed.

It is thought that the train initially came across a landslip and the driver stopped and contacted control to ask permission to reverse.

It’s believed the driver reversed the train to a set of points and switched to a different set of tracks, which was clear.

The train then apparently continued on its route towards Glasgow before it possibly hit another landslide and derailed."

Which suggests 2 reversals, wrong road heading north back to the crossover, then wrong road heading south.

 

[Bow Fell]

If the master controller is in forward or reverse and the DSD pedal is released an automatic GSMR emergency call is made.

If the master controller is in forward or reverse and the DSD pedal is released an automatic GSMR emergency call is made.

If the master controller is in forward or reverse and the DSD pedal is released an automatic GSMR emergency call is made.

A very minor point to the above; but just so it is clear to all.

If the above occurs or there’s a driver “drops the DSD” it will send a DSD alarm to the signaller via the GSMR which sounds exactly the same as an urgent call, which is a number of repeated beeps.

The REC (Emergency) call is far more distinctive.

 

[tiptoptaff]

#
We do get a DSD alarm in the box, however I have never known REC call in these circumstances.

See what you mean, I've misread - it doesn't make a REC call off its own back. Just sends you the DSD alert

 

[baz962]

Is it actually a straight 60 second gap, or is there some random variation introduced so that pressing it doesn't become a subconcious habit?
(Forgive my ignorance, I don't work on the railways)

It's pretty much bang on . However as posted upthread , if you move the traction / brake controller , it starts the clock again. Or it does on the two types of train I drive.

 

[Juniper Driver]

The weather was something like a once-in 100+ years phenomenon. Even if the area had been pronounced safe on the numerous inspections I'm sure the area would have had, can the inspectors say "unless 4" of rain falls in 15 minutes" - in which case no roads or rail could open anywhere! NB: I don't know the actual rainfall data, but understand it was beyond severe and localised.
Even when there's excessive heat, possibly causing buckling, trains can be slowed "just in case".
Anyhow, I assume all embankments and cuttings will be re-inspected as a matter of course.

The possibility in the future is of this weather becoming more frequent...

 

[tiptoptaff]

From elsewhere in the BBC reporting:
"A rail industry source has confirmed that the 0638 Aberdeen to Glasgow service was heading south when it derailed.

It is thought that the train initially came across a landslip and the driver stopped and contacted control to ask permission to reverse.

It’s believed the driver reversed the train to a set of points and switched to a different set of tracks, which was clear.

The train then apparently continued on its route towards Glasgow before it possibly hit another landslide and derailed."

Which suggests 2 reversals, wrong road heading north back to the crossover, then wrong road heading south.

The BBC report has been rubbished already several times. The photos from the scene quite clearly show the train on the "right" road.

 

[Captain Chaos]

The BBC are reporting in their Live News Feed Updates that the Train Guard was also among one of those to have died. A very sad time for the Railways and thoughts to all those involved in this tragic event.

 

[43066]

Is that true ?

Yes - although that takes a few minutes to activate (the signaller can also make announcements over the train’s PA system via the GSMR). It’s to alert the signaller to driver incapacitation rather than accidents.

 

[Horizon22]

The possibility in the future is of this weather becoming more frequent...

Quite. This is a tragic incident that on initial observations seems to have had a number of elements of "bad luck" (unlike Watford), but these sort of landslip events are going to - and to some extent have already - become more likely as our climate in the UK changes.