Carmont (near Stonehaven) derailment - 12 August 2020

[Journeyman]

As stated earlier, the 158's are Aluminium, the same as the Thames Turbo, which did not fare well at Ladbroke Grove under heavy impact

Neither did the HST.

 

[No Fault Found]

There's no visible fire damage at that end, the bulkhead paint is still clean.

But isn’t the vehicle body that end grey and burnt whereas it should be First Group blue?

 

[LowLevel]

If I remember correctly, not long after it was new, 158862 was run into very hard near Stockport - I went past a few days later and the body had had the cab crushed and the body bent upwards by the leading bogie. Needless to say 52862 was written off and the spare bodyshell kept at Derby was fitted up with 52862's interior and running gear. It was numbered 52862 (2) and joined undamaged 57862. If you check the bodyshell serial numbers, imprinted on the mounts over the rear bogie, all other units have both coaches very close in number but 52862 has a very high number.

It was 861 and the cab structure survived fairly intact as did the body itself, the front vestibule buckled. It was generally considered to have performed well I believe.

 

[Chris B]

2B13 Montrose-Inverurie (which was terminated at Stonehaven) passed over that section of track at some point between 0658 and 0713. What we don't know is how much time passed between then, 1T08 passing over it and the emergency services being called at 0943. I'd imagine that having reached the obstruction on the up line, 1T08 would have been stationary for some time while driver, signaller and control liaised on the next move.

Does RealTimeTrains not give a passing time anywhere heading north?

 

[Darandio]

As stated earlier, the 158's are Aluminium, the same as the Thames Turbo, which did not fare well at Ladbroke Grove under heavy impact

Which has absolutely no bearing on whether one would have fared worse today. We simply don't know and hopefully we never have something similar again to test the theory.

 

[Journeyman]

But isn’t the vehicle body that end grey and burnt whereas it should be First Group blue?

ScotRail aren't using any blue power cars any more.

 

[the sniper]

To me this more proves quite how poor HSTs and Mark 3s are in comparison to modern stock. The 390 involved at Greyrigg came off the line at 95mph, went down an embankment, tumbled and remained structurally sound, mostly intact and coupled. As I understand it linespeed here was 75 but its likely the HST was doing significantly less, and we have one coach demolished, two upside down, one on it own down an embankment and a severely damaged power car.

We have no idea how the crash unfolded yet. I don't know how you can make a comparison at this point. Just because both fulfil the same basic criteria of have ended up off an embankment, there's no way of knowing what forces were involved.

Driving your car off the edge of an embankment into an empty field at 95mph could end up far better than driving your car head on into something solid at 75mph...

 

[Journeyman]

It was 861 and the cab structure survived fairly intact as did the body itself, the front vestibule buckled. It was generally considered to have performed well I believe.

Yup. The vestibules are designed as crumple zones.

 

[Royston Vasey]

But isn’t the vehicle body that end grey and burnt whereas it should be First Group blue?

The burnt end is the inner end, the cab end is closer to the camera in that picture of the PC. You can see that the bulkhead door visible is on the left hand side, so it must be the cab. I think a combination of muck/dust and sunlight is obscuring the colour of the paintwork. Also the grille is clearly towards the burnt end and you can see some light grey paint near there, as well as possibly the dark window ribbon.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

We have no idea how the crash unfolded. I don't know how you can make a comparison. Just because both fulfil the same basic criteria of have ended up off an embankment, there's no way of knowing what forces were involved.

Driving your car off the edge of an embankment into an empty field at 95mph could end up far better than driving your car head on into something solid at 75mph...

This.

The precise sequence of events will need to be established before rolling stock experts can assess whether different (note - not necessarily more modern) rolling stock could have resulted in fewer/no fatalities, or would have resulted in more fatalities and severe injuries.

 

[rebmcr]

It *looks* to be the case here that the train has jack-knifed and then one of the carriages ended up getting wedged in place. No vehicle is going to come out well in that situation, the energy simply has to go somewhere.

Indeed, there is some similarity to Eschede in that regard.

 

[dubscottie]

Neither did the HST.

Did you ever see the leading power car from Ladbroke Grove after the crash? There is a picture online somewhere of it at Crewe works. It was blackened/burnt but almost intact.

It kept its structural form.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I imagine those working / travelling on 2B13 will be thanking their lucky stars right now. With the aluminium bodies, a class 158 has never really been tested in a high energy accident (bar a few fairly low speed collisions) and the results could have been pretty bad as well.

The not-dissimilar Thames Turbo body has, and it didn't perform well, though that was a much higher speed collision.

 

[Domh245]

ScotRail aren't using any blue power cars any more.

I thought that the power cars were still blue underneath, with vinyls applied over the top. You can see this looking at the cab area where the blue goes from the matte of the vinyl to the gloss of the paint.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The BBC doesn't appear to care much about accurate reporting any more. The original reports about carriages going down the embankment may have terrified people who were waiting for news about their relatives, not that the correct situation was really any better given that three people had died in this tragedy.

It (mostly) wasn't inaccurate. One coach (plus a power car) did go down the embankment.

 

[FrodshamJnct]

Did you ever see the leading power car from Ladbroke Grove after the crash? There is a picture online somewhere of it at Crewe works. It was blackened/burnt but almost intact.

It kept its structural form.

Did you see the HST after the incident at Neville Hill last year? These things are all relative to the circumstances.

 

[ainsworth74]

I would ask members to exercise caution. I'm not sure there's much to be gained right now from comparisons between different types of rolling stock. There may be some value to these in the future once the full sequence of events is known in the meantime I think it might be best to leave it here.

 

[talldave]

My thoughts are with those involved today and with everyone who has to deal with the aftermath - either directly on scene or indirectly as a part of the railway family keeping services running tomorrow and beyond.

 

[DanBlanchflowe]

Tragic situation. My thoughts & prayers are with the family & friends of those who passed away, with all who were on the train and the valient people helping in the rescue.
I will continue to use as a passenger what I consider to be a very very safe and the most pleasant way of travelling.

 

[theironroad]

What a tragic day for the families, friends and colleagues of those who've died and been injured.

My heartfelt condolences go to all.

As a driver, it's days like this that remind me that life at the pointy end has its risks and not coming home from ' just another turn' is always a possibility.

I'm not interested in armchair speculation or over analysing pictures, I'll leave all that to the RAIB.

It's been an emotional day, but nothing in comparison to what those near to the incident are enduring.

To all fellow drivers, guards and on board crew, while it's not always possible - stay safe out there.

Good night.

 

[Rob_76]

I read in an earlier post in this thread that one of the news outlets, I forget which one, had reported that the alarm was raised by someone walking to a signal box.
Of course that may not be the case, however, there is a signal box - Carmont (prefix CM), which is manned 24 hrs - located around 2 km in the up direction (e.g. towards Edinburgh) from the accident site (between mileposts 220 and 221). The next box in the down direction is Stonehaven (prefix SV). It appears the area in question is signalled by Carmont.
There is a diagram of the track and associated infrastructure, albeit from a few years ago, on pages 18 and 19 of this Network Rail FOI disclosure document:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/315489/response/776316/attach/3/511828%20SC191%20Dundee%20Aberdeen%20Oct14%20Ver3.3%20102.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

 

[infobleep]

Does RealTimeTrains not give a passing time anywhere heading north?

When's train takes an unplanned route or returns on itself, Real Time Trains cannot take that into account.

For example if a train is diverted, you will just see no report against the timing points and stations it skipped. You will not see the timings along the route it actually took.

 

[PHILIPE]

Does RealTimeTrains not give a passing time anywhere heading north?

Only if they are recording/reporting points

 

[156443]

Scotrail have announced on their social media accounts that the guard died along with the driver and a passenger.

Nobody should go to work and not return.

 

[Eyersey468]

My condolences to all the families involved and I wish all those injured a speedy recovery

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Scotrail have announced on their social media accounts that the guard died along with the driver and a passenger.

Nobody should go to work and not return.

And no passenger should get on a train and not reach their destination alive through no fault of their own.

The death of any person, whether a staff member or a passenger entrusting their safety in the railway is tragic and a sad day for the industry.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Nobody should leave their life at work and it's a horrible job to go and have to tell their other half (in my case with a BTP WPC) - the moment she opened the door and you saw his things - those moments stay with you for ever.

Can I echo the comments about not comparing different traction types as speculation could lead to uninformed press comments. Turbos have great low speed collision strength but the closing speeds at Ladbroke Grove would have adversely tested many a DMU design to a greater or lesser extent. Every build type behaves differently in different situations and I am sure the RAIB will be all over that aspect of the accident.

 

[johntea]

We all die at some point, that’s life, but the thought of leaving the front door as either a member of rail staff or passenger for a routine journey and not returning back home is one I’m still struggling to process almost 12 hours on, (even more so when I woke up this morning here in Yorkshire to a bright blue sky with abroad style humid heat)

A complete tragedy, RIP to victims and a huge thanks to the emergency services of course

Excuse my scientific ignorance but what causes the fire, the force of the impact? Fuel?

 

[ScotRail158725]

Excuse my scientific ignorance but what causes the fire, the force of the impact? Fuel?

punctures/damages to the fuel tank and or combining with other things

 

[Bletchleyite]

Excuse my scientific ignorance but what causes the fire, the force of the impact? Fuel?

In most collisions involving vehicles powered by liquid fuels of whatever type (be that trains, cars or planes, though you'd have to put some effort in for that to occur with a ship) what happens is that the collision breaches either the fuel tank or the pressurised fuel line, causing fuel to spray out, and that fuel sprays around, lands on something hot (engine components, typically), evaporates and ignites. The heat from that can then cause a cycle of the remaining liquid fuel evaporating and burning.