Carmont (near Stonehaven) derailment - 12 August 2020

[weastebusdepot]

I imagine it'll be closed for a while.

The current disruptions page on National Rail Enquiries describes it as "No trains between Aberdeen and Dundee expected until the end of the day on 21 August".

All lines are closed between Aberdeen and Dundee as the emergency services continue to work at the site of the derailed train near Stonehaven. Consequently, no trains will run between those stations, and trains between Aberdeen and Glasgow Queen Street / Edinburgh may be cancelled or revised.

Lines are expected to reopen for the start of service on Saturday 22 August.

ScotRail

Amendments to service:

• Trains will not run between Aberdeen and Dundee.
• Trains will not run between Glasgow Queen Street and Aberdeen
• Trains will not run between Aberdeen and Edinburgh
• Trains will not run between Aberdeen and Montrose.

Alternative travel options:

The Scottish Government has made it clear that public transport should be used by those making necessary journeys only, so staff and passengers can maintain a physical distance from each other in stations and on trains. Please don’t travel if your journey isn’t a necessary one.

If your journey is necessary, your ticket will be valid on other trains between Edinburgh and Glasgow Central.

Rail replacement transport is running between Dundee and Aberdeen. Buses will be operated by Merlin Travel, First Aberdeen, Watermill Coaches, Kineil Coaches, Eazy Coaches and Ratho Coaches.

Ticket acceptance is also available on Stagecoach services as follows:

• Stagecoach East on route 73/A: Dundee, Broughty Ferry, Balmossie, Monifieth, Barry Links, Golf Street, Carnoustie and Arbroath.
• Stagecoach North 7B: Aberdeen, Portlethen and Stonehaven.

LNER:

Customers travelling between Aberdeen and Edinburgh are advised not to travel until further notice.

Replacement coaches are being sourced, but customers at advised that there is no guarantee of travel between these stations.

CrossCountry:

Trains are unable to run between Aberdeen and Edinburgh.

 

[yorkie]

There is a separate thread to discuss the reopening of the line: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ke-to-reopen-the-line-near-stonehaven.207762/

 

[Crossover]

Have you contacted them via the donation page?

Thus far no - I thought I would see whether the original poster of the donation page knew any more initially (as could be the case)

 

[30907]

And, as the preceding train along the route (2B13), had been delayed by 9 minutes between Carmont and Stonehaven, presumably because of weather conditions, would the driver have been made aware of this as a matter of course by train controls or others in authority?

What is the correct course of action in a situation such as this? Was I just lucky in that the trains I was on back in 2007 were driven cautiously, or would the train crew of 1T08 have been made aware, as a matter of course, to expect problems between Carmont and Stonehaven, and to act accordingly?

The delay to 2B13 (the northbound 158) approaching Stonehaven is consistent with it (stopping at Carmont and then) proceeding under caution to examine the line. If the driver reported no problems there would be no specific reason for 1T08 to proceed at caution.
However, the facts are not yet established, so this is (intelligent?) speculation.

 

[najaB]

However, the facts are not yet established, so this is (intelligent?) speculation.

It is consistent with the facts that we do have so far.

 

[43096]

It's allowed but would have to be specifically authorised. If the driver thought there was no need for it (had previously passed through the area on the other line, weather had improved, better light etc) then the guard would probably have stayed in the train - I'd suggest that in 99.9% of the time in these circumstaces, the guard would have remained in the train. They were likely in their office in the TGS, which appears to have been the leading passenger vehicle, right behind the leading PC. If the set had been in the opposite formation, or indeed travelling in the other direction, it's likely the guard would have been in the rear coach and therefore survived.

ScotRail HSTs do not have TGS vehicles. There is guard’s accommodation in the buffet/first vehicle, which is the one remaining upright one.

 

[matchmaker]

Excuse my ignorance but would this be in case of any potential criminal negligence?

Not at all. A Fatal Accident Inquiry will require to be held, as both the driver and conductor died during the course of their employment. Mandatory under the Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths Inquiry (Scotland) Act 1976.

 

[reddragon]

This is not dissimilar to Southall.

In this case 43140 hit an immovable object, so solid it was able to deflect the power car sideways off the track with coach 1 spreading diesel all over the place causing a fire . Sadly coach 2 seems to have taken all of the deceleration load and crushing as did coach 2 at Southall. Even at 30 mph the result is devastating however strong the coach design happens to be.

Normally the sheer weight / kinetic energy of a train is enough to plough through most obstructions. Clearly not this time, although the images do not seem to show what that immovable object was.

Climate change is causing significant rainfall events as happened in Stonehaven the night before. What we called a freak or 1 in 1000 year storms happens too often these days, something we will all have to live with.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

Not at all. A Fatal Accident Inquiry will require to be held, as both the driver and conductor died during the course of their employment. Mandatory under the Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths Inquiry (Scotland) Act 1976.

Is this why Police Scotland and not BT Police are reported as undertaking this?

 

[matchmaker]

Is this why Police Scotland and not BT Police are reported as undertaking this?

It will be. It is also the reason that the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service are mentioned.

 

[LOL The Irony]

That was Tom Burridge, the BBC's Transport Correspondent. His background is a news and foreign correspondent, but you would expect that he would be more on top of his brief than he was last night.
The coverage from the BBC News at Ten is here:

Can I suggest anyone who has taken issue with his reporting of the situation email BBC Newswatch at [email protected], as well as contacting ofcom.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

heres The Sun’s take on yesterdays tragedy, absolute vile scumbags they are with a title like this.View attachment 82172

I concur.

 

[neonison]

Am i right in thinking the HST set was following the 158 north to Stonehaven? Would it have had to wait for the 158 to clear the section before it could move? Once allowed to move the assumption could be that there was no discernible obstruction (would the 158 have reported it to the signaller if there were?) so the HST could have proceeded 'safe in the knowledge' that the line was clear. Therefore, it is possible that whatever caused the derailment was not something the driver could have seen from a distance and therefore not braked or even cut power?

I think many people are astounded by the catastrophic resting places of the vehicles with the train being imagined as travelling at not a very high speed. My question is, assuming the driver took no action, at what point would the trailing powercar stop taking power? I imagine as soon as the trailers disconnected that eh brakes would apply, but what would cut the power to the trailling powercar?

2B13 was about 3 hours earlier though it was delayed 9 minutes before being terminated at Stonehaven.

It’s not clear if is was still at platform when 1T08 set off North.

 

[mpthomson]

Not at all. A Fatal Accident Inquiry will require to be held, as both the driver and conductor died during the course of their employment. Mandatory under the Fatal Accidents and Sudden Deaths Inquiry (Scotland) Act 1976.

The police involvement is to assist in determining whether or not something happened that broke the law and that contributed to the accident and subsequent deaths and to ensure that any relevant evidence is gathered/preserved to support any possible subsequent prosecution. That needn't involve the people who have sadly died, it could be at a negligence at corporate (or any other) level, or anything else involved in the incident ie contractors working nearby, criminal actions by third parties etc.

Please note I'm not speculating whether anything unlawful happened or not, more able people than I will be involved in deciding that and it appears to be a horrible set of circumstances combining, but that is why the police are involved.

 

[westcoaster]

Drone footage of the site shows a slip before the left hand bend onto the bridge. (Not known if this was before or after the train passed by).

Home

2209434

www.eveningexpress.co.uk

 

[Swanny200]

2B13 was about 3 hours earlier though it was delayed 9 minutes before being terminated at Stonehaven.

It’s not clear if is was still at platform when 1T08 set off North.

is there any facilities either before or after Stonehaven that had 2B13 detrained there that had they decided to terminate the train, allow it to set off and switch tracks to come back and terminate at the other platform, thereby letting 1T08 terminate there too. I know there are is an old siding just past Stonehaven on the way to Aberdeen but unsure if that is still connected and used.

NB: Evening Express have named the passenger.

 

[30907]

is there any facilities either before or after Stonehaven that had 2B13 detrained there that had they decided to terminate the train, allow it to set off and switch tracks to come back and terminate at the other platform, thereby letting 1T08 terminate there too. I know there are is an old siding just past Stonehaven on the way to Aberdeen but unsure if that is still connected and used.

NB: Evening Express have named the passenger.

Trailing crossovers at both ends of the station, so no difficulty.

 

[reddragon]

Drone footage of the site shows a slip before the left hand bend onto the bridge. (Not known if this was before or after the train passed by).

Home

2209434

www.eveningexpress.co.uk

Looks like it derailed at that slip (shown for a few seconds) before the bridge and then hit the bridge which deflected it down the embankment.

 

[Swanny200]

Looks like it derailed at that slip (shown for a few seconds) before the bridge and then hit the bridge which deflected it down the embankment.

Have looked at the footage and I would suspect, even at low speed, factoring in the curve and the distance between the slip and the bridge itself, it would have been unavoidable, if he was at linespeed which I doubt he was, it could have been a hell of a lot worse.

 

[GB]

Looks like it derailed at that slip (shown for a few seconds) before the bridge and then hit the bridge which deflected it down the embankment.

What part of the video are you referring to with regards the slip? The only slip visible is where it derailed....and we don't know how much of that was the slip itself or as a result of the derailment.

 

[InOban]

Which I suspect will take months, not weeks. I read that there have been issues with mudslides in this area before. They might have to rebuild the embankment to modern standards.

 

[westcoaster]

Shown top left of the screen in the first few seconds, and again mid video.

 

[MarkyT]

Drone footage of the site shows a slip before the left hand bend onto the bridge. (Not known if this was before or after the train passed by).

Home

2209434

www.eveningexpress.co.uk

That definitely confirms the train was proceeding north on the down line when the incident occurred. If the material visible on the track had diverted the derailed power car sufficiently from the alignment, it may have fallen from the embankment and bridge encountered very shortly afterwards, dragging the following carriages with it. Greater provision of derailment containment measures such as extra guardrails inside the four foot in such areas might help.

 

[najaB]

Drone footage of the site shows a slip before the left hand bend onto the bridge. (Not known if this was before or after the train passed by).

Home

2209434

www.eveningexpress.co.uk

Screen grab from the video showing the slip at the top-left of the image.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

The driver and guard have been named on the bbc

 

[reddragon]

What part of the video are you referring to with regards the slip? The only slip visible is where it derailed....and we don't know how much of that was the slip itself or as a result of the derailment.

top left 00:40

 

[GB]

Screen grab from the video showing the slip at the top-left of the image.
View attachment 82179

Thanks

 

[GB]

top left 00:40

Thanks

 

[Simon11]

I still cant believe this BBC article around the ‘facts’ of the derailment, updated only 50mins ago still has at least two errors, the biggest of which it states there were 12 people onboard.... Stonehaven train derailment: What we know https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-53764992

It is believed a total of 12 people, including the crew, were on board.

 

[Starmill]

Goodness. That image / video really does show up some damage on the bridge. It further highlights just how far to fall the leading vehicle or vehicles could have had.


What an awful situation. I cannot imagine the fear involved with being onboard a train that did that.