• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Stop-and-search powers ruled illegal by European court

Status
Not open for further replies.

eos

Member
Joined
7 Apr 2006
Messages
233
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8453878.stm
From the newspage:-
- - - - - - - - -
Police powers to use terror laws to stop and search people without grounds for suspicion are illegal, the European Court of Human Rights has ruled.

The Strasbourg court has been hearing a case involving two people stopped near an arms fair in London in 2003.

It said Kevin Gillan and Pennie Quinton's right to respect for a private and family life had been violated.

It awarded them 33,850 euros (£30,400) to cover legal costs.

Section 44 of the Terrorism Act 2000 allows the home secretary to authorise police to make random searches in certain circumstances.

But the European Court of Human Rights said the people's rights under Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights had been violated.

- - - - - - - - -
Lets see how much 'wiggle-room' the Government has on that!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Polls

Member
Joined
16 Dec 2009
Messages
81
Location
West London
If you are innocent and have nothing to hide why would a stop and search bother you? My partner works at Heathrow airport and I am stil shocked at the stories I hear of people refusing to be searched!....maybe they would like to board a plane where no body has been through a security check but I know I certainly wouldn't! :roll:
 

gordonthemoron

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2006
Messages
6,592
Location
Milton Keynes
having been subjected to an unjustified search by 'security' at Waterloo International a few years back I think that this is great news.
 

eos

Member
Joined
7 Apr 2006
Messages
233
If you are innocent and have nothing to hide why would a stop and search bother you?

You mean you really have been brainwashed into thinking section 44 has anything whatsoever to do with terrorism.?
Ask Mr Plod to define 'terrorism' or 'terrorist' and they say it could be an OAP holding his bus pass upside down when boarding a bus!!
I'm all in favour of fighting terrorism , but even when they have the terrorism information on a plate in front of them , plod choose to ignore it.
 

GB

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
6,457
Location
Somewhere
If you are innocent and have nothing to hide why would a stop and search bother you? My partner works at Heathrow airport and I am stil shocked at the stories I hear of people refusing to be searched!....maybe they would like to board a plane where no body has been through a security check but I know I certainly wouldn't! :roll:

The two scenarios are entirely different. Perhaps you would be happy with strip searches? After all, if you have nothing to hide....
 

Polls

Member
Joined
16 Dec 2009
Messages
81
Location
West London
If I was asked to do a strip search then I would imagine they would have found something on me already or I was refusing to let them do the simple search in the first place.

The only times I have been stopped and searched is at the airport or at a concert or club where a lot of people would be in danger if someone slipped in a knife or something worse. All I'm saying is I'm glad somone is checking. Also I have a lot of friends in the MET and BTP (or 'plod' as they have been called) and they do not stop and search anyone without probable cause. People attending a Arms fair might be seen as probable cause, but clearly not.

I have not been brainwashed but I do think with the amount of maniacs out their hell-bent on killing as many people as possible the authorities need to take some responsibility to make sure it doesn't happen as much.
 

GB

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
6,457
Location
Somewhere
and they do not stop and search anyone without probable cause

Maybe your friends dont, but there is clear evidence to the contrary that some officers do.

Id be interested to know just how many terrorists have been caught via stop and search.
 

Polls

Member
Joined
16 Dec 2009
Messages
81
Location
West London
that'd be trainspotters, photographers & artists I suspect <D

...and a few OAPS! They are the most evil :lol:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Maybe your friends dont, but there is clear evidence to the contrary that some officers do.

Id be interested to know just how many terrorists have been caught via stop and search.

Yeah those would be the power corrupt idiots that give every other police officer a bad name....believe me patting down randoms (for no reason) in the street is the very last thing any of the police officers, I know, would want to do. It is not only a form of aggrivation to the citizen involved (as you can imagine) it is also statistically one of the most hazardous things to do. Many officers have been injured from having to do searches on people who have needles/weapons in thier pockets or just simply get aggresive.
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
20,386
Location
0035
Because you do have something to fear! This isn't being used on terrorists, it's being used to hassle protestors, photographers doing nothing at all wrong and the press. Have a look through this forum and you'll see countless posts on the law being misused.
 

Polls

Member
Joined
16 Dec 2009
Messages
81
Location
West London
Because you do have something to fear! This isn't being used on terrorists, it's being used to hassle protestors, photographers doing nothing at all wrong and the press. Have a look through this forum and you'll see countless posts on the law being misused.

So do you know what a terrorist looks like? I don't. Is it fair to pick and choose who gets searched and who doesn't?
 

GB

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
6,457
Location
Somewhere
I ask again, how many terrorists have been caught using random stop and search?
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,721
Location
Yorkshire
If you are innocent and have nothing to hide why would a stop and search bother you? My partner works at Heathrow airport and I am stil shocked at the stories I hear of people refusing to be searched!....maybe they would like to board a plane where no body has been through a security check but I know I certainly wouldn't! :roll:
As you have nothing to hide please provide your full name, address, telephone number, DOB and bank number, and state your regular journeys and what you look like so we can randomly stop and search you. Thanks in advance ;)
 

ralphchadkirk

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
5,753
Location
Essex
Maybe for a police officer who is bound by rules of confidentiality. Bit different for your example Yorkie.
 

eos

Member
Joined
7 Apr 2006
Messages
233
Maybe for a police officer who is bound by rules of confidentiality. Bit different for your example Yorkie.

Something to hide then ? Ehh? Hides behind an anonymous pseudonym ... mmmmmmm... very suspicious..

Police and confidentiality do not go hand in hand, unless its in their favour.. Only need to watch #Police Camera Action and others to see that... Even photography in peoples bedrooms is fair game if its for TV, but we will blur the naughty bits.. Yehh Quite.
 

Old Timer

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
3,703
Location
On a plane somewhere at 35,000
If you are innocent and have nothing to hide why would a stop and search bother you? :roll:

Whilst on the face of it, The Terrorism Act would appear to be a benevolent piece of Legislation aimed at protecting the UK, in actual fact like much, if not all of Labour’s Legislation, it was malevolently conceived, very poorly drafted, forced through Parliament by cynical manipulation, and is being misapplied by (in some cases) Police Forces who are Politically inspired and led.

Labour has introduced enormous amounts of Legislation which in the main has removed more and more of our historic freedoms, and given it, and its Politicised Police Forces, the ability to suppress any opposition, and stifle free speech, and permit the collection and retention of personal information against which we can be examined at a later stage.

Like other Legislation, The Terrorism Act (particularly Section 44) has allowed the Police to harass and detain law abiding citizens who are going about their lawful business. It has also been used by the Police to suppress dissent and free speech. Maybe you recall the aged protestor at the Labour Conference who was arrested and detained under Terrorism Legislation simply for barracking Bliar from the floor of the conference hall.

Other Legislation has been enacted to prevent free association, limit the power to peacefully protest, and removed the right of the common person to even march to Parliament unless they have “Authority” from the Police. Labour even passed a Law to make a long standing protest against the Iraq invasion outside the House of Commons illegal simply because it “embarrassed Bliar”

The Police meanwhile continue to call for greater and greater powers and limits on our freedom, to the point that the UK now has the most oppressive laws in the World, far and away beyond anything that the Former Soviet Union ever had, and the Russian Communists as they regain power are looking towards the UK laws as a new and better means of suppression.

Labour and their placemen in the Media have long pedalled this ridiculous argument that if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear.

What you have to fear is the amount of personal information that is now held about you or is legally available to the Police simply on “suspicion”, and the ability of the Police to use far reaching powers to detain you and hold you even though you have committed no criminal offence.

You can see also that we move even faster towards a Police State, when Media photographers have been harassed and arrested, and are filmed and photographed (for what purpose?) simply for turning up to do their job.

Our greatest fear has to be that the Administration can suppress any legitimate opposition to its actions. Sadly this situation is practically upon us, and the previously Labour-fawning Media and some (but not all) of its proponents have suddenly woken up to the monster that has been created. Those that have sought to raise this have found themselves slandered, libelled and subject to pernicious smears and stories about their intentions and their mental health. Indeed this has not been confined to the Media, but to Labour Ministers and MPs who it is considered have gone “off message” such as Frank Field, Claire Short, and the late Gwyneth Dunwoody.

It is only by looking at the bigger picture and seeing how all and any opposition has either been removed or emasculated whilst oppressive Legislation has been brought into Statute that you can judge just how bad things have now become.

We should be afraid….VERY afraid.
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
20,386
Location
0035
Now our own courts have revealed misuse of "reasonable suspicion" stop & search (a different kind to s44).

"The stop and search of 11-year-old twins at the Kingsnorth Climate Camp was unlawful, Kent police have admitted at London's High Court."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/8454959.stm
 

GB

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
6,457
Location
Somewhere
Now our own courts have revealed misuse of "reasonable suspicion" stop & search (a different kind to s44).

"The stop and search of 11-year-old twins at the Kingsnorth Climate Camp was unlawful, Kent police have admitted at London's High Court."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/8454959.stm

...and what will be done about it? Absoloutly nothing I bet!:roll: Its about time that Police forces are held to account for their actions and not just do what they want when they want and apologise for it later. Officers who misuse their powers should be held liable.
 

Polls

Member
Joined
16 Dec 2009
Messages
81
Location
West London
Ok I totally understand where all of you are coming from and in particular like how eloquently 'Old Timer' has put his veiws and facts over....

I think all law is misused by people in power at some stage. This comes when you give anyone any kind of power and unfortunately human nature. Any Government proves this fact. We are indeed the ones that suffer and Section 44 (after looking into it in more depth) was rushed out and poorly written and WIDE OPEN for interpretation. However I think we do need something that will give Police the authority to stop and search someone with reasonable suspicion and cause. I found out this morning that they actually need no reason to search you at the moment and this is not good! I also still welcome searches at airports, clubs, sports venues (generally places with a lot of people). I would personally be nervous being at those places knowing how many people want to do some serious damage to us at the moment. I know of occasions where Police have found items intended for serious harm to people in searches and it happens frequently, but a lot of those stories are not published to avoid fear mongering.

I dont agree with information authorities hold on us and how our privacy is invaded daily. I always feel that the governments insistance in making sure you are on the electoral list is just so they can keep tabs on you. I honestly hate that with a passion....surely voting is a choice? So why is it mandatory that I have to give you my name and address details, if I don't want to vote? <(

So in summary all I am trying to say is we need authorities to take action against the crazies out there that mean to harm us, but yes I agree Section 44 is not the way and needs to be changed.
 

the sniper

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2007
Messages
3,499
We should be afraid….VERY afraid.

Though I agree that Section 44 should be scrapped as it does more harm then good, I find talk that Britiain is now a Police state ridiculous. If this is a Police state, then it's the softest Police state ever...

As long as people who bemoan 'Big Brother Britain', with it's CCTV and DNA records, don't mind being a victim of crime and never getting justice, then that's fine by me. If the same people are then going to cry about crime and the amount of unsolved crime cases, then I'm afraid they don't have a leg to stand on in my book.
 

Old Timer

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
3,703
Location
On a plane somewhere at 35,000
Though I agree that Section 44 should be scrapped as it does more harm then good, I find talk that Britiain is now a Police state ridiculous. If this is a Police state, then it's the softest Police state ever...

As long as people who bemoan 'Big Brother Britain', with it's CCTV and DNA records, don't mind being a victim of crime and never getting justice, then that's fine by me. If the same people are then going to cry about crime and the amount of unsolved crime cases, then I'm afraid they don't have a leg to stand on in my book.
Does the harrassment of photographers, trainspotters and those who object a little too loudly at Labour Party Conferences not disturb you ?

IF the Police cocentrated on tackling true crime then no one would have a problem however a dozen or so Police turning up to eventually arrest a press photographer taking wedding pictures whilst weekly you can watch scrotes, undesriables and ne'er do wells being told to go home with no Police action after getting involved in street brawls.

As for DNA only 7% of crimes have been solved by that and in the vast majority of cases only because the perpetrator has been arrested for some other crime.

We live in a Society where we are frightened even to look at people in the eyes anymore in case we are attacked, and where whole estates are terroised by feral youths who are allowed to roam unchallenged.

Your right to talk to friends in a group has been removed in some situations as you can be ordered to disperse.

Your letters, emails, and telephone calls can be monitored and recorded without your knowledge (and are incidentally) despite the fact that you have committed no crime.

These are the things that occurred in Germany under the Nazis and in the Former Soviet Union.

And you suggest that crime is under control ??



If you are happy with that then fine, I would however suggest you take a read of a comment made by Niemoller about Germany under the Nazis. There are striking similarities and his words portend what is happening here.

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out.


I would also suggest you look at some of the freedoms that have been lost in the past 12 years.
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
20,386
Location
0035
It's being directed at the wrong people (ie: easy targets). Jackboot Jacqui told us she'd start harassing the harassers but instead she's sent her American style robocops armed with comedy style cameras to stand outside church halls where campaigners meet up.

1200335887_02a9be146a.jpg

Pic courtesy of Fit Watch
 

ralphchadkirk

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
5,753
Location
Essex
Actually those FIT (Forward Intelligence Team) officers provide a very important service. While you may or may not like being filmed by them, they may in fact be gathering intelligence on a serial criminal standing next to you.
 

Old Timer

Established Member
Joined
24 Aug 2009
Messages
3,703
Location
On a plane somewhere at 35,000
Actually those FIT (Forward Intelligence Team) officers provide a very important service. While you may or may not like being filmed by them, they may in fact be gathering intelligence on a serial criminal standing next to you.
The thought is good but lets be honest serious criminals and terrorists are unlikely to move in those sorts of circles because they do not wish to draw attention to themselves.

The purpose of the Police presence is to intimidate those who can be.

The "professionals" ignore them because the Police can never get them.
 

the sniper

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2007
Messages
3,499
Does the harassment of photographers, trainspotters and those who object a little too loudly at Labour Party Conferences not disturb you ?

It does to an extent, but looking at the bigger picture, I honestly believe these are the highly publicised exceptions rather then the day to day rule.

Though I haven't personally interrupted a politician at a political conference so can't speak personally on that, I can offer my own personal experiences of being rail enthusiast. Honestly, I've never had any bother from the BTP while out on the railway taking pictures, but the other day I did put the 'war on rail enthusiasts' theory to the test at Birmingham New Street. I was on the bridge at the west side of the station and leads to the Navigation Street entrance, it was snowing quite a lot and I was amazed to see that every train on the departure board was shown as being on time, so, as you do, I decided to take a picture of the departure board, problem was though, the screen was right next to a bunch of CCTV camera's!

Knowing all the horror stories about rail enthusiast being strip searched under Section 44 by abseiling armed Police officers for having the audacity to even look at a CCTV camera, I have to admit I was a little wary. Nevertheless, I decided to chance it and take the picture. After I had done so I turned around and saw two BTP officers walking along the bridge, they must definitely have seen me and, as I do wish to join the BTP as a Special Constable, I have to admit I was a bit worried about what could happen next... What happened? Absolutely nothing! I gave them a quick smile, one of them nodded at me, and that was it. I'm not some nice sweet looking old chap either, I'm 20 years old and was wearing a baseball cap!

So, personally I've never witnessed this harassment on my travels, ever, so I'm not massively inclined to be scarred.

IF the Police cocentrated on tackling true crime then no one would have a problem however a dozen or so Police turning up to eventually arrest a press photographer taking wedding pictures

How often does this happen?

whilst weekly you can watch scrotes, undesriables and ne'er do wells being told to go home with no Police action after getting involved in street brawls.

It depends what you class a 'street brawl'. If people have been injured and the Police have seen who is involved then they'll nick them. If it's just a couple of drunks having a minor scrap amongst themselves then sometimes it can surely just be more effective to send both parties in home, as, unfortunately, I doubt the system could handle taking in everyone involved in a kerfuffle on a Friday or Saturday night.

As for DNA only 7% of crimes have been solved by that and in the vast majority of cases only because the perpetrator has been arrested for some other crime.

I guess every little counts isn't the answer your looking for? :lol:

Just to play the devils advocate, what would be the harm in everyone being on a DNA database? What harm could it do to ordinary law law-abiding folk?

We live in a Society where we are frightened even to look at people in the eyes anymore in case we are attacked

Sorry to be a party pooper, but I don't :lol: . I live in a pretty crappy part of Birmingham but when I'm walking along I almost always give an acknowledging nod or small smile (trust me, it doesn't look as odd as it sounds :lol:) with someone walking in the opposite direction and try to get eye contact... I've always found that it's hard for people to attack you once you've got some kind of connection with them. The worst reception I ever got was was not from a youth or druggy looking chap, but from a really old Chinese women! Old people will normally say hello or return the smile, especially in nice areas (like Sutton Coldfield/Four Oaks, if any knows them), but this women spat at my feet! :lol:

and where whole estates are terroised by feral youths who are allowed to roam unchallenged.

Your right to talk to friends in a group has been removed in some situations as you can be ordered to disperse.

Odd point. Hasn't your complaint in the second paragraph just been brought about as a remedy to combat the former complaint. In a perfect world, no-one would need to be dispersed, but that power was brought it to tackle the 'feral youths'.

Personal, I've never heard of anyone I know being issued with a dispersal order, so it's never occurred to me that the power was being abused. Do you believe the power is being abused? I would have thought many people would say it's underused, if anything.

Your letters, emails, and telephone calls can be monitored and recorded without your knowledge (and are incidentally) despite the fact that you have committed no crime.

The crucial word being can. The government can make an MI5 agent follow you everywhere you go, but they probably won't. You'd have to had done something wrong, or at least raised a lot of suspicion, to have the authorities trace you in the way you describe.

And you suggest that crime is under control ??

Nowhere did I suggest that, I believe totally the opposite.

If you are happy with that then fine, I would however suggest you take a read of a comment made by Niemoller about Germany under the Nazis. There are striking similarities and his words portend what is happening here.

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out.

When the Nazis came for the communists first (modern equivalent, Photographers? :| ), did the SS also leave them with a piece of paper with 'Section 44 search' written on it and a nice story for their blog, or did they just skip to the beatings and murders?

EDIT: I'll address Oswyntail's comment tomorrow. :)
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,038
Location
UK
As long as people who bemoan 'Big Brother Britain', with it's CCTV and DNA records, don't mind being a victim of crime and never getting justice, then that's fine by me. If the same people are then going to cry about crime and the amount of unsolved crime cases, then I'm afraid they don't have a leg to stand on in my book.

I could have written that myself! Well done.





(Now in a few years come back and see if you still think the same way)


Knowing all the horror stories about rail enthusiast being strip searched under Section 44 by abseiling armed Police officers for having the audacity to even look at a CCTV camera, I have to admit I was a little wary.

Why say that? You know that this would never happen. Therefore, if I don't have that happen to me then what am I complaining about?

What about taking a photo where a police officer is in the shot, he comes over and demands to know what I'm doing (he can get lost), why I was doing it (he has no reason to know) and wanting to see the footage (not without a court order). Then I'm being threatened for non-compliance and may be arrested and the camera taken (again, he can't do that - and he knows it - so WHY is he saying it?).

I give my name and date of birth, as required, a PNC check is all clear. I produce my accredited press card and invite him to call up and verify me. Suddenly, he's not so big. Oh, am I working... blah blah blah.. he's my best mate. Off he goes, have a nice day.

That's more likely what happens and it's no nicer than your strip search example - but it is happening every single day and increasing. Most people would comply or argue that if I wasn't doing anything wrong then why didn't I give him the camera and let him look at the pictures and video. In fact, if he then asks nicely for me to delete a photo because he didn't like the way he looked, I should delete it out of courtesy? I'm not saying that I wouldn't, but he can't make me do anything if I am not committing an offence! I'm not sure when protesting or taking photos became offences.
 
Last edited:

the sniper

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2007
Messages
3,499
That is exactly it. Read "1984" and see just how much has come into being. Ironic it was written by someone called Blair!

I'm always puzzled by people who complain about the amount of CCTV in Britain or even the presence of any CCTV at all, what is so wrong with it?

Imagine you are walking down an empty high street late on a Wednesday night/early Thursday morning, there's no-one around except two dodgy suspects sitting on a bench. As you walk past they get up and tell you to give them your money, you refuse, they beat to within an inch of your life and leave you for dead, taking your money and phone. Thanks to your friends in the CCTV office the Police are already on the way and go on to pick up the offenders walking along a nearby street thanks the description given by the CCTV operator. An Ambulance gets to you within 10 minutes.

Without the CCTV you'd could have been lying in a pool of you own blood until someone came across you or you managed to stumble to a phone box, hopefully one that works. By this time the dodgy geezers are long gone and never get caught.

Another question for any CCTV haters, if a loved one was murdered and the perpetrators were caught on CCTV, be it in a shop, on a train or a street, where ever, would you refuse the images being used in the investigation, released to the public or used in a later court case due to you moral objection to CCTV?

Also, I haven't read 1984, but did Orwell envisage it'd not only be 'them' filming us, but the public filming them too? Be that via the dreaded CCTV (clicky) or hand held personal camera's (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/8458822.stm - Damn our oppressors!!! :lol: )?

Why say that? You know that this would never happen. Therefore, if I don't have that happen to me then what am I complaining about?

I was just exaggerating to be humorous... :|

What about taking a photo where a police officer is in the shot, he comes over and demands to know what I'm doing (he can get lost), why I was doing it (he has no reason to know) and wanting to see the footage (not without a court order). Then I'm being threatened for non-compliance and may be arrested and the camera taken (again, he can't do that - and he knows it - so WHY is he saying it?).

Seeing how rude you appear to be I'm not surprised the Police officer treated you like this, but that isn't the point. Are you saying this all happened to you personally? Be honest.

I give my name and date of birth, as required, a PNC check is all clear. I produce my accredited press card and invite him to call up and verify me. Suddenly, he's not so big. Oh, am I working... blah blah blah.. he's my best mate. Off he goes, have a nice day.

Here's a tip for free, you are NOT required to give your name and date of birth under Section 44. Check this out for yourself, but I believe the only bit of information the Police Officer actually has to have is your ethnicity, as that has to go on the form and onto a record so to ensure the officer/force isn't picking on any specific ethnic groups.

That's more likely what happens and it's no nicer than your strip search example - but it is happening every single day and increasing. Most people would comply or argue that if I wasn't doing anything wrong then why didn't I give him the camera and let him look at the pictures and video. In fact, if he then asks nicely for me to delete a photo because he didn't like the way he looked, I should delete it out of courtesy? I'm not saying that I wouldn't, but he can't make me do anything if I am not committing an offence! I'm not sure when protesting or taking photos became offences.

I would totally disagree that this is increasing, if anything it's now decreasing as Police Officers and PCSO's have been told to use Section 44 more carefully recently.

If your story is something you've personally experienced then I feel sorry for you, but I still maintain that these instances aren't as common as some people love to make out.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top