Stopping short...but

[Bensonby]

I know that advanced fares prohibit “breaking the journey” and stopping short. However, what are people’s thoughts on stopping short when you hold an additional ticket that would otherwise be valid at a particular station?

For example: if you had a Crewe to Euston Advance but already held a Milton Keynes to Euston Season Ticket. Could you alight at Miltons Keynes Central and leave the gate line (obviously the ticket would work)? Could you alight at Milton Keynes and change trains to a local service and stop at, say, Watford Junction? Or does the fact that you got to Milton Keynes by an advance ticket mean you have to stay onboard until Euston?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I know that advanced fares prohibit “breaking the journey” and stopping short. However, what are people’s thoughts on stopping short when you hold an additional ticket that would otherwise be valid at a particular station?

For example: if you had a Crewe to Euston Advance but already held a Milton Keynes to Euston Season Ticket. Could you alight at Miltons Keynes Central and leave the gate line (obviously the ticket would work)? Could you alight at Milton Keynes and change trains to a local service and stop at, say, Watford Junction? Or does the fact that you got to Milton Keynes by an advance ticket mean you have to stay onboard until Euston?

The fact that you have a season ticket doesn't change the terms of an Advance - which include that BoJ is unquestionably not permitted. Now, in practical terms, if you have a season ticket and no-one spots the fact that you have left a southbound train and no-one checks your ticket before you 'mix' with passengers from other trains, then it's unlikely anything will happen. I still wouldn't try it - the theoretical penalty is to have to pay the excess to the relevant walk-up fare. At peak times, that could be a very pricy excess.

 

[Mag_seven]

The fact that you have a season ticket doesn't change the terms of an Advance - which include that BoJ is unquestionably not permitted. Now, in practical terms, if you have a season ticket and no-one spots the fact that you have left a southbound ticket and no-one checks your ticket before you 'mix' with passengers from other trains, then it's unlikely anything will happen. I still wouldn't try it - the theoretical penalty is to have to pay the excess to the relevant walk-up fare. At peak times, that could be a very pricy excess.

Something similar came up a while back when someone asked if they could stop short at Preston on a Euston - Lancaster ticket (not an "advance" ticket as such rather a ticket with no BOJ allowed at Preston except to change trains and said ticket much cheaper than a similar Euston-Preston ticket) provided they had a Wigan-Preston ticket in their possession. I'm sure the consensus of opinion was "no" then as well.

 

[Nicholas43]

The 'no stopping short with an advance' rule is absurd and unjust. I hope it would be held to be an unfair term, and therefore unenforceable. It's like MacDonalds claiming that you can't leave any of your burger uneaten.

 

[Merseysider]

The 'no stopping short with an advance' rule is absurd and unjust. I hope it would be held to be an unfair term, and therefore unenforceable. It's like MacDonalds claiming that you can't leave any of your burger uneaten.

Not this again.

Food analogies don’t work.

 

[yorkie]

The 'no stopping short with an advance' rule is absurd and unjust. I hope it would be held to be an unfair term, and therefore unenforceable....

Rail industry policy is not to enforce it. ATOC (now known as RDG) issued a memo to that effect after several negative press stories.

In theory, you can be charged the difference between the fare paid and the cheapest walk-up fare that would have allowed the journey made. In practice I don't think I've ever heard of anyone being excessed in this manner before.

Instead some alternative incorrect actions have occurred, which arguably brought the industry into disrepute with the resulting press coverage.

 

[Bensonby]

To be honest, I only asked it as an academic question as I had to go from London to Birmingham for work last month and am off to Stafford next week. Both times I’m travelling on a good value advance but actually am a member of a travel scheme where I have a pass that takes me as far as Milton Keynes: there’s nothing worth stopping for there as far as I know so it’s a theoretical question!

 

[yorkie]

I guess this is one advantage of splitting, in that you can cut short your intended journey at any of the split points, without breaking the T&Cs.

 

[najaB]

However, what are people’s thoughts on stopping short when you hold an additional ticket that would otherwise be valid at a particular station?

It would still be breaking the T&C's. If you have an Advance from A to C and a single from B to C you'd still effectively be stopping short at B when you transferred between tickets.

That said, you'd be very unlikely to be detected.

 

[a_c_skinner]

In practice I don't think I've ever heard of anyone being excessed in this manner before.

There was a high profile case where an academic with an advance to Durham got off at Darlo a few years ago, if that fits the case.

The Preston to London off peak issue isn't stopping short at Preston as break of journey is allowed on the return leg, the issue was starting a journey at Preston on the one train of the day that is off peak from north of Preston but only any time tickets from Preston and south.

 

[cuccir]

Something similar came up a while back when someone asked if they could stop short at Preston on a Euston - Lancaster ticket (not an "advance" ticket as such rather a ticket with no BOJ allowed at Preston except to change trains and said ticket much cheaper than a similar Euston-Preston ticket) provided they had a Wigan-Preston ticket in their possession. I'm sure the consensus of opinion was "no" then as well.

Though your example here isn't quite the same as that suggested by the OP of holding a Milton Keynes-London season ticket. A closer example would be if you did a BOJ at Preston but also had a valid ticket covering travel from Lancaster-Preston. In this instance, you would still be breaking the terms and conditions of the original fare by breaking the journey BUT you'd hold suitable tickets - in effect, you'd hold the tickets to travel London - (Preston) - Lancaster - Preston but just wouldn't have done the actual travelling between Preston-Lancaster-Preston. However, perhaps this misuse of off-peak tickets is still slightly different as you'd be on a busier train at the wrong time.

In contrast, and while I'd emphasise that it is still technically breaking the T&Cs of an Advance, if you hold a valid ticket from the end point for the Advance ticket to where you're breaking, you've purchased a valid set of tickets - there's no fare evaded in that instance, you've just used the tickets in slightly different way. Whereas, if you just buy (for example) the cheapest ticket that will get you through the barriers, there's a stronger case that you've deliberately avoided paying the fare for the actual journey you wanted to make.

 

[a_c_skinner]

The Preston example isn't good. It is a single train each day and Virgin often do a full check before Preston and mark the tickets they check and then accuse people after Preston with Lancaster tickets not so marked. One could of course have travelled from LAN to PRE on TPE, not had the Virgin ticket check north of PRE and still be within the law. It only applies southbound, the return allows breaks.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

The Preston example isn't good. It is a single train each day and Virgin often do a full check before Preston and mark the tickets they check and then accuse people after Preston with Lancaster tickets not so marked. One could of course have travelled from LAN to PRE on TPE, not had the Virgin ticket check north of PRE and still be within the law. It only applies southbound, the return allows breaks.

It would also be possible to use an EUS-LAN SVR as a commuter - since the return portion is valid for a month. Obviously you would be breaking the rules to break your journey at PRE on the outbound (and would be liable to an excess to the Anytime) but it would be entirely OK when going southbound (the critical direction, really). I doubt anyone would demand the excess fare when leaving at PRE anyway, though of course it's possible.

 

[methethpropbut]

It would also be possible to use an EUS-LAN SVR as a commuter - since the return portion is valid for a month. Obviously you would be breaking the rules to break your journey at PRE on the outbound (and would be liable to an excess to the Anytime) but it would be entirely OK when going southbound (the critical direction, really). I doubt anyone would demand the excess fare when leaving at PRE anyway, though of course it's possible.

Ride all the way to Lancaster, then immediately use the portion of the return to Preston?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Ride all the way to Lancaster, then immediately use the portion of the return to Preston?

Of course that's another option, so it's the potential cost of an excess vs the time saved by not doubling back via Lancaster.

 

[neilmc]

Virgin Trains' Preston/Lancaster scam has been well and truly covered by the national media when they wrongly accused a businessman of boarding at Preston with a Lancaster ticket (CCTV subsequently exonerated the man) so the whole world in the North-West must know about it. And thus Virgin will be hot about enforcing it.

If I really and truly needed to catch the train it applied to, and lived in the Preston area, I would get a friend to drive me to Lancaster and give him petrol costs plus a portion of the savings I'd made. Don't give the scammers a penny more than you need, but don't try any ticket tricks which may not work.

 

[robbeech]

Virgin Trains' Preston/Lancaster scam has been well and truly covered by the national media when they wrongly accused a businessman of boarding at Preston with a Lancaster ticket (CCTV subsequently exonerated the man) so the whole world in the North-West must know about it. And thus Virgin will be hot about enforcing it.

If I really and truly needed to catch the train it applied to, and lived in the Preston area, I would get a friend to drive me to Lancaster and give him petrol costs plus a portion of the savings I'd made. Don't give the scammers a penny more than you need, but don't try any ticket tricks which may not work.

The case (one of many) where it cannot be denied the man was guilty until proven innocent.

 

[Nicholas43]

Rail industry policy is not to enforce it. ATOC (now known as RDG) issued a memo to that effect after several negative press stories.

Thanks, glad to hear that.