Stopping short - special case or same as usual?

[jawr256]

Hi all,

I'm thinking of stopping short at a particular station using my season ticket and wanted to pick your brains to make sure the normal rules apply. There are no fare anomalies - just hoping I don't need to buy an extra ticket for the journey.

There are various cases around the network where station B lies on a permitted route from A to C, yet all trains which stop at B either continue no further (eg. A-B-C = Alnmouth - Chathill - Berwick) or diverge onto a different route before their next stop (eg. Manchester - Patricroft - Wigan, or Crewe - Acton Bridge - Warrington, or Exeter - St James Park - Pinhoe). In such circumstances, stopping at B cannot form part of a valid itinerary for a full journey from A to C.

Could this fact disallow stopping short at B on a journey form A to C, or is stopping short permitted as usual as B still lies on a valid route?

 

[AlterEgo]

You can always stop short or break your journey on a season ticket as long as you are on a route permitted by your ticket. There is nothing else to consider.

 

[greatkingrat]

As long as trains from A to C could call at B (even if none are currently scheduled do so) it should be fine. The grey area would be something like breaking a Lancaster - Oxenholme journey at Carnforth as the WCML platforms at Carnforth are no longer in use.

 

[najaB]

The grey area would be something like breaking a Lancaster - Oxenholme journey at Carnforth as the WCML platforms at Carnforth are no longer in use.

Light grey at worst since the Routeing Guide lists stations, not platforms.

 

[xotGD]

Carnforth station isn’t on the line from Lancaster to Oxenholme just like Ravensthorp isn't on the line from Huddersfield to Wakefield or Knottingley isn't on the line from Pontefract to Doncaster. Surely you are going off-route if you baled there?

 

[yorkie]

Hi all,

I'm thinking of stopping short at a particular station using my season ticket and wanted to pick your brains to make sure the normal rules apply. There are no fare anomalies - just hoping I don't need to buy an extra ticket for the journey.

There are various cases around the network where station B lies on a permitted route from A to C, yet all trains which stop at B either continue no further (eg. A-B-C = Alnmouth - Chathill - Berwick) or diverge onto a different route before their next stop (eg. Manchester - Patricroft - Wigan, or Crewe - Acton Bridge - Warrington, or Exeter - St James Park - Pinhoe). In such circumstances, stopping at B cannot form part of a valid itinerary for a full journey from A to C.

Could this fact disallow stopping short at B on a journey form A to C, or is stopping short permitted as usual as B still lies on a valid route?

If you can run this by me in a format that does not use algebra, I will be happy to advise.

(Send me a PM if you prefer).

Edit: having had a quick read, I think in general it would be fine, for example if you held a Season ticket from Rugeley Trent Valley to London, you could legitimately purchase a Rugeley Trent Valley to Manchester ticket to travel on non-stop trains; the first ticket is absolutely valid as far as Rugeley and the fact that Manchester services do not stop there does not in any way negate that fact.

However a small minority of Guards refuse to honour valid tickets because of non-existent rules that have been invented, e.g. a ticket that was valid between Manchester and Stalybridge was falsely rejected by a Northern Guard for travel between Manchester and Guide Bridge. That's a training issue.

 

[najaB]

Carnforth station isn’t on the line from Lancaster to Oxenholme...

As built it certainly was, they've just closed and removed the edges from the WCML platforms.

 

[PeterC]

As built it certainly was, they've just closed and removed the edges from the WCML platforms.

Or for an example where the platforms were removed and tracks realigned before living memory - Liverpool Street to Bethnal Green on a Liverpool Street - Chelmsford ticket.

 

[jawr256]

Thanks all for your responses. I wondered how long it would take before cases like Carnforth were mentioned.

If you can run this by me in a format that does not use algebra, I will be happy to advise.

Thanks for your interest, yorkie. My specific case is whether anyone could argue against making a Manchester to Patricroft journey on a Preston to Manchester season ticket. The consensus so far is that there's nothing to worry about.

 

[yorkie]

As built it certainly was, they've just closed and removed the edges from the WCML platforms.

I don't think many Northern Guards would have an issue with a Lancaster to Oxenholme ticket being used for a Lancaster to Carnforth journey. Whether or not it's valid or not would perhaps require research to see if there is any evidence on maps, timetables etc published by the rail industry.

In the unlikely event that they did take issue with it, the excess would be zero as the fares are the same.

Or for an example where the platforms were removed and tracks realigned before living memory - Liverpool Street to Bethnal Green on a Liverpool Street - Chelmsford ticket.

It would be very difficult for anyone to argue that Bethnal Green is not on a permitted route for this journey as it is a timing point.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As built it certainly was, they've just closed and removed the edges from the WCML platforms.

You've also got stuff like Watford High St and the Northampton loop.

Or, less awkwardly, Euxton Balshaw Lane, which doesn't have fast-line platforms (and never has had in its current incarnation) but is unquestionably on the WCML.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for your interest, yorkie. My specific case is whether anyone could argue against making a Manchester to Patricroft journey on a Preston to Manchester season ticket. The consensus so far is that there's nothing to worry about.

It's valid on map KM. Season tickets allow starting/finishing short.

99%+ of Guards will accept it without quibble.

A small number of Northern Guards who don't understand the rules on determining ticket validities (but think they do), might make up rules to say it isn't valid. They are a minority but they do exist!

You've also got stuff like Watford High St and the Northampton loop.

Or, less awkwardly, Euxton Balshaw Lane, which doesn't have fast-line platforms (and never has had in its current incarnation) but is unquestionably on the WCML.

The problem here is the use of algebra has brought all sorts of ideas into peoples imaginations, which is all very interesting stuff to those of us with a personal or professional interest (or both!) in ticket validities, but the OP's query is actually much more simple than any of these more complex examples.

 

[jawr256]

The problem here is the use of algebra has brought all sorts of ideas into peoples imaginations, which is all very interesting stuff to those of us with a personal or professional interest (or both!) in ticket validities, but the OP's query is actually much more simple than any of these more complex examples.

I'll confess that I was quietly hoping that leaving the question abstract would inspire some interesting discussions - as well as answering my particular question.

 

[PeterC]

I don't think many Northern Guards would have an issue with a Lancaster to Oxenholme ticket being used for a Lancaster to Carnforth journey. Whether or not it's valid or not would perhaps require research to see if there is any evidence on maps, timetables etc published by the rail industry.

In the unlikely event that they did take issue with it, the excess would be zero as the fares are the same.


It would be very difficult for anyone to argue that Bethnal Green is not on a permitted route for this journey as it is a timing point.

It would be very difficult for most people to argue that as you would need to be a railway nerd or a professional to even understand the concept.



So the answer to the OP is that there is no consistent answer, if the site of the former non branch platform is a timing point (as at BET) then stopping short is OK but not otherwise?

 

[najaB]

So the answer to the OP is that there is no consistent answer...

So far the answer has been the same for all the examples presented (i.e. it's fine) so I'm not sure where the inconsistency is?

 

[xotGD]

So far the answer has been the same for all the examples presented (i.e. it's fine) so I'm not sure where the inconsistency is?

What about the Ravensthorpe and Knottingley examples?

What about going to Dore on a Sheffield - Chesterfield ticket?

 

[yorkie]

What about the Ravensthorpe and Knottingley examples?

What journey(s) and what ticket(s)? I'll then give you an answer.

What about going to Dore on a Sheffield - Chesterfield ticket?

Should be no issue. The data says Dore is an intermediate station on the shortest route between Sheffield and Chesterfield.

 

[xotGD]

What journey(s) and what ticket(s)? I'll then give you an answer.

Should be no issue. The data says Dore is an intermediate station on the shortest route between Sheffield and Chesterfield.

Knottingley on a Pontefract to Doncaster ticket

Ravensthorpe on a Huddersfield to Wakefield Kirkgate ticket

Surprised about Dore.

 

[yorkie]

Knottingley on a Pontefract to Doncaster ticket

Given all that's missing is some points between the tracks with platform faces and the Doncaster line, which at one point in the distant past were probably present, and you are literally adjacent to the platforms, I do not think it would be a sensible argument to claim such a fare is not valid.

However, for the same price, you may as well purchase a Pontefract to Kirk Sandall ticket. This would be completely indisputably valid!

Ravensthorpe on a Huddersfield to Wakefield Kirkgate ticket

It's obviously a permitted route (maps YN+HL) but I guess you are asking about a "Not via Leeds" ticket. One may argue the case is less strong than the Knottingley example, as the lines diverge before the platforms. I think it would be reasonable to honour the ticket, but the worst a Guard could do is charge the appropriate excess (e.g. for one portion of a an Off Peak Day Return, assuming no discounts, this would be 80p; the argument probably is not worth 80p).

 

[xotGD]

Given all that's missing is some points between the tracks with platform faces and the Doncaster line, which at one point in the distant past were probably present, and you are literally adjacent to the platforms, I do not think it would be a sensible argument to claim such a fare is not valid.

However, for the same price, you may as well purchase a Pontefract to Kirk Sandall ticket. This would be completely indisputably valid!

It's obviously a permitted route (maps YN+HL) but I guess you are asking about a "Not via Leeds" ticket. One may argue the case is less strong than the Knottingley example, as the lines diverge before the platforms. I think it would be reasonable to honour the ticket, but the worst a Guard could do is charge the appropriate excess (e.g. for one portion of a an Off Peak Day Return, assuming no discounts, this would be 80p; the argument probably is not worth 80p).

Thanks. If you look on RTT, trains to Doncaster do not pass through Knottingley [KNO] - they route Knottingley West Jn to Knottingley South Jn. Therefore the lines are considered to diverge to the west of KNO. Whether this makes a difference regarding validity, I don't know.