Stops to Pick-up only Problem

[First class]

Hi,

Was travelling on the 1910 Euston-Holyhead service with the following stopping pattern:

Euston
Milton Keynes Ctl (Stops to pick up only)
Crewe
Chester
>onwards to Holyhead

The train manager did a ticket check shortly on departure, and there happened to be a young professional looking male with a ticket to Milton Keynes sitting opposite me. From what I could fathom it appeared he had an Off-Peak Single ticket route ANY PERMITTED.

The train manager informed him the train did not stop there and he would have to pay for a Full undiscounted ticket to Crewe, the next OFFICIAL stop. Which after speaking to him cost him £95.

Now, there's one or two things I don't think are 100% correct with this situation.

1) Firstly, the excess amount. She's charged him the fare from Euston-Crewe, not taken into account the fare already paid for the Euston-MKC ticket.

2) The NRCoC state a combination of tickets can be used, providing the train stops at the relevant stations. How does this affect Pick Up/ Set Down services? Does the train 'stop' in terms of ticketing at the station?

3) Is Break-of-Journey permitted at a Pick-Up only station? I.e. if I choose to get off the train at MKC, instead of staying onwards to Chester... Nobody is physically going to stop me getting off- I can't think of anything they could do, they can't excess you because you hold a ticket that was valid to the next stop. You're permitted to cut your journey short, so

4) Is Virgin's set up/set down only timetable to do with preventing locals from taking capacity or is this more about revenue issues with London Midland?

 

[dan_atki]

1) I believe (and I'm sure someone will confirm one way or another) that in such circumstances the rules stipulate the passenger must be treated as though they are not holding any ticket. Milton Keynes Central would not be listed as a stop on the departure board at Euston as the service does not allow passengers to leave the train there.

2) My interpretation is that a 'stop' is a station the train calls at to both set down AND pick up passengers. Theoretically, this means you are permitted to leave the train at that station, buy another ticket, and get straight back on that same train (presuming it has waited!).

Of course, in most cases the other ticket is purchased in advance and the charade of getting off the train and getting straight back on isn't actually necessary - it just needs to be technically feasible that you have transferred from one ticket to another.

3) Technically, I doubt it, although that doesn't mean you wouldn't get away with it. You are correct with nobody will force you to stay on and I wonder what would happen if a member of staff saw you getting off - you could say you felt really ill or something...
(I've often wondered about Advance tickets being used to finish a journey short of the destination at a station without ticket checks).

4) I guess it's a case of both of those things. WSMR have similar revenue issues at their pick up and set down stations, and SWT have Clapham Junction as a pick up only stop on long distance services to prevent a whole load of Waterloo to Clapham passengers using them.

 

[rail-britain]

The departure boards at Euston CLEARLY state that Virgin Train tickets / restrictions apply

Equally, it would not have shown Milton Keynes Central as a destination

Sounds more like either this person knows it calls at Milton Keynes and has done it before or got on the wrong train

Sadly it would be the case to pay for the entire journey Euston to Crewe, the Euston to Milton Keynes Central remains unused so the passenger will have to claim for that ticket
The reason being that Virgin Trains would not receive any revenue for that ticket

 

[Mojo]

4) I guess it's a case of both of those things. WSMR have similar revenue issues at their pick up and set down stations, and SWT have Clapham Junction as a pick up only stop on long distance services to prevent a whole load of Waterloo to Clapham passengers using them.

If that was the case though, then why have Virgin introduced a 'Virgin only' ticket from Milton Keynes to Euston which is cheaper and the LM only and Any Permitted tickets? Admittedly the Off-peak ticket has more restrictions, but there are a much larger number of them than LM only.

 

[dan_atki]

If that was the case though, then why have Virgin introduced a 'Virgin only' ticket from Milton Keynes to Euston which is cheaper and the LM only and Any Permitted tickets? Admittedly the Off-peak ticket has more restrictions, but there are a much larger number of them than LM only.

Some of Virgin's services do indeed stop at Milton Keynes to both set down and pick up passengers - xx13 and xx50 coming from Euston, and xx19 and xx47 going to Euston. Other services stop there to pick up/set down only.

This would then suggest that the issue is more to do with capacity for those trains that stop to pick up/set down only rather than fares distribution.

I guess Milton Keynes is in a different situation to Watford being further out of London.

 

[yorkie]

I'll assume it was an Off Peak Day single, priced at £22.70 as there is no Off Peak Single that I can find.

An Off Peak single to Crewe is £59.30

The excess should therefore be £36.60.

There are some 'desperate' guards on VT as we've heard several stories before, my advice to the customer would be to threaten to go to the Press, as VT do not like bad press. Any sign of bad press and they give out a free first class ticket usually.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sadly it would be the case to pay for the entire journey Euston to Crewe, the Euston to Milton Keynes Central remains unused so the passenger will have to claim for that ticket
The reason being that Virgin Trains would not receive any revenue for that ticket

This is total and utter nonsense.

VT do get revenue and even if they don't, they still have to excess it.

You can excess a London to Long Buckby into a London to Rugby (for example) and VT would have to accept it on a fast train avoiding Long Buckby. They'd also have to accept, for example, a season ticket from London to Harrow plus a Harrow to Milton Keynes day return on a fast train from MKC to EUS, even though they'd get no revenue. The revenue allocation is irrelevant to the customer and does not determine validity.

 

[rail-britain]

I've checked with two different VT Train Managers today, and it is correct that the customer MUST be charged for the shortest pick up and drop off point, in this case Euston - Crewe

I've also looked at the DfT contract and it specifies that revenue is excluded where the train is not specified to stop, but may pickup
This is where the ticket problem begins

There is a similar problem with several other routes which are "abused" and result in people paying the longer journey :
Edinburgh Waverley - Haymarket
Glasgow Central - Motherwell
Cardiff Central - Crewe

 

[yorkie]

I've checked with two different VT Train Managers today, and it is correct that the customer MUST be charged for the shortest pick up and drop off point, in this case Euston - Crewe

They can show discretion. It's a moneymaking scam, but I can't deny that the rules allow them to do it. But they should excess.

I've also looked at the DfT contract and it specifies that revenue is excluded where the train is not specified to stop, but may pickup
This is where the ticket problem begins

There is a similar problem with several other routes which are "abused" and result in people paying the longer journey :
Edinburgh Waverley - Haymarket

Err, nope! The guards don't come round between those stations, there's not enough time and both are barriered so there's no point.

Glasgow Central - Motherwell

if you're unlucky enough to see the TM within about 10 minutes, yes.

Cardiff Central - Crewe

on which service?

 

[First class]

Cardiff-Crewe has no pick-up only points do they?

The sleeper is an interesting thought though. The train picks up only at Eus, Wfj, Cre and Pre and all Scottish stations are Set-down only. Imagine getting on the train at Crianlarich wanting a ticket to Fort William and being chinged for an entire Euston-Fort William ticket!!

 

[John @ home]

The sleeper is an interesting thought though. The train picks up only at Eus, Wfj, Cre and Pre and all Scottish stations are Set-down only. Imagine getting on the train at Crianlarich wanting a ticket to Fort William and being chinged for an entire Euston-Fort William ticket!!

That's not right. Table 227 of the GB rail timetable shows the Fort William sleeper picking up at all stops (Ardlui, Corrour and Roy Bridge by request). It is, however, fully reservable.

John

 

[90019]

Err, nope! The guards don't come round between those stations, there's not enough time and both are barriered so there's no point.

Waverley depends on the platform.
And the ScotRail platforms are easy to get to without going through the barriers.

 

[bengolding]

I've travelled on the 17:10 Super Voyager service from Euston a few times. Again, this is pick-up only at Milton Keynes, but what I found odd on all occasions is that on approach to MKC, the TM came on the tannoy to advise customers that the next stop was MKC and requesting customers take their belongings with them when alighting. On one occasion, a chap actually alighted from the train in my First carriage with no questions asked, even after a ticket check from Euston.

My thoughts are that some VT TMs enforce the pick-up policy more so than others.

 

[me123]

if you're unlucky enough to see the TM within about 10 minutes, yes.

(RE: MTH-GLC)

I've seen people charged for this. TMs do cover the train between Glasgow and Motherwell; it's actually anything from 14 to 20 minutes. Also, the barrier staff at Motherwell are very observant. They will know if you've done that and can charge accordingly. This is helped because platforming at Motherwell is usually very consistent; only a few variations can occur and I've never seen it happen.

Of course, this isn't as much of an issue now; Glasgow-Motherwell passengers are happily conveyed on many intercity services now.

 

[dan_atki]

but what I found odd on all occasions is that on approach to MKC, the TM came on the tannoy to advise customers that the next stop was MKC and requesting customers take their belongings with them when alighting.

I had exactly this a couple of weeks ago with SWT on approach to Clapham! It struck me as particularly odd the guard deciding to announce this when the train had working auto-announcements which were set up to know CLJ was a pick-up only stop.

What was weirder is that he did no other announcements that journey so must have thought it was a normal stop and that the announcements were set up incorrectly!

 

[rail-britain]

Cardiff-Crewe has no pick-up only points do they?

16:15 Cardiff - Holyhead
I have been given permission to travel Cardiff - Crewe for a press release today, leaving the train at Crewe, but my ticket is to Chester as that is the first set down point, everything before that is pickup only

Waverley depends on the platform.
And the ScotRail platforms are easy to get to without going through the barriers

I noticed that on a visit with Network Rail during May around Edinburgh Waverley, but unless you know the fence is open at each end then it does appear to be a complete barrier!

I've seen people charged for this. TMs do cover the train between Glasgow and Motherwell; it's actually anything from 14 to 20 minutes
Of course, this isn't as much of an issue now; Glasgow-Motherwell passengers are happily conveyed on many intercity services now

Some services are posted as arr/dep, but most of the Virgin Trains ones are still restricted to pickup (southbound) set down (northbound)

 

[krus_aragon]

16:15 Cardiff - Holyhead
I have been given permission to travel Cardiff - Crewe for a press release today, leaving the train at Crewe, but my ticket is to Chester as that is the first set down point, everything before that is pick-up only

Are you sure? That train is Arriva's northbound loco-hauled express service. It stops at Shrewsbury for Cambrian-bound passengers, as well as Newport, Cwmbran and Abergavenny (like the commuter service it's replaced). I haven't travelled northbound on that train, but I wasn't aware of any set-down only restrictions: they're not mentioned in any promotional flyers I've seen.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'll assume it was an Off Peak Day single, priced at £22.70 as there is no Off Peak Single that I can find.

An Off Peak single to Crewe is £59.30

The excess should therefore be £36.60.

There are some 'desperate' guards on VT as we've heard several stories before, my advice to the customer would be to threaten to go to the Press, as VT do not like bad press. Any sign of bad press and they give out a free first class ticket usually.

I think the passenger would be treated as having joined without a valid ticket, I imagine VT policy is for an Anytime ticket to be issued where the origin station (in this case Euston) has ticket facilities.

However if we are to go along the 'excess' route, it would have to be for 'over-riding' which is to the 'full priced ticket' in this case, the £95 Anytime Single, an excess of £72.30.

 

[CosherB]

Not quite the same thing, but it shows that VT revenue staff take no prisoners.

A few years ago I had a ticket-type which I don't think is available now - Wilmslow to Euston return (first) out and return by specified train, ticket purchased at the Wilmslow ticket office. The booking clerk should have written the departure times of the specified trains on the back of the ticket, but omitted to do so.

Outward travel was no problem, but as I came down the platform ramp at Euston that evening for my train home, I saw there was a ticket check in progress by VT staff. An officious VT woman said to me "this ticket should specify the train departure. It doesn't, so you can't use it. Go to the ticket office and get it checked and approved for your train". Arguing that by then this train would have departed cut no ice, so I dashed up to the Euston ticket office.

Luckily there was a free 'first class' window, and the booking clerk said "silly cow; there's no way I can check whatb train this ticket was issued for. Here you go..." ....and he stamped it 'valid any service', and I caught my train!

So, VT were punishing the passenger for something overlooked by the Wilmslow booking clerk. Some of those VT revenue folk need to wind their necks in!