• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Storm Dennis disruption 15th & 16th

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,554
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
If the expenses are incurred as part of a work trip, I'd be expecting the employer to foot the bill.

If it was employer-initiated certainly (and my employer indeed did when the ash cloud stranded me abroad on a work trip), but not if that person took the job based in London themselves.
 

SuperNova

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2019
Messages
957
Location
The North
Going home is not a non-essential journey unless the railway is coughing up for hotels (despite NRCoT they were not doing so) and providing indemnity against loss of pay/being sacked due to non-attendance at work.

Sorry, but this argument doesn't cut it. Last weekend a 'Do Not Travel' was released on Thursday PM for Sunday given people plenty of advance warning, alternative travel options, ticket restrictions lifted etc. They could've traveled back home on the Saturday evening or Monday had travel allowed it. But plenty of people just didn't think that this information related to them and there should be some personal culpability for these kind of decision making - to me it just seems selfish and yes there is always the 1% who had no other option (e.g returning from holiday etc) but not the numbers that were seen last weekend.

I was supposed to go to Edinburgh this weekend. Chose not to - raided Sainsbury's and stayed in all weekend. Why? I took the advice of the rail operators and the Met Office - because they just might know what they're on about.
 

Mathew S

Established Member
Joined
7 Aug 2017
Messages
2,167
Sorry, but this argument doesn't cut it. Last weekend a 'Do Not Travel' was released on Thursday PM for Sunday given people plenty of advance warning, alternative travel options, ticket restrictions lifted etc. They could've traveled back home on the Saturday evening or Monday had travel allowed it. But plenty of people just didn't think that this information related to them and there should be some personal culpability for these kind of decision making - to me it just seems selfish and yes there is always the 1% who had no other option (e.g returning from holiday etc) but not the numbers that were seen last weekend.

I was supposed to go to Edinburgh this weekend. Chose not to - raided Sainsbury's and stayed in all weekend. Why? I took the advice of the rail operators and the Met Office - because they just might know what they're on about.
It's not always that simple though is it. I, like an increasing number of people, work away from home for a week or more at a time. If I have to travel home on a given day, I have to - it's not a non essential journey and, often, can't be rearranged with anything less than 10 days notice. I'm also self-employed, so I would be very, very surprised if my 'clients' were willing to foot the bill.

Disruption I can accept, but my contract with the train company is clear: get me there, by alternative transport if needs be; or if not put me up in a hotel.

Other than one occasion when I had to 'encourage' a Northern staff member to get me a taxi (I was perfectly polite, I should add, just firm) I've never had any problems. But, I would have absolutely no hesitation at all in taking a TOC to court if I was treated in the way other passengers have been this, and last, weekend.

It comes down to this: a contract is a contract. Weather like this is not unforeseeable, and TOCs were well aware it could happen when they entered into a contract with me. I have every right to expect, even demand, that they meet their responsibilities, and to enforce that right if needs be.
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,316
It comes down to this: a contract is a contract. Weather like this is not unforeseeable, and TOCs were well aware it could happen when they entered into a contract with me. I have every right to expect, even demand, that they meet their responsibilities, and to enforce that right if needs be.

I'm not sure they could have foreseen storm Dennis when they sold an Advance ticket for a specified train three months ago, or a season ticket a year ago?
 

Baxenden Bank

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
4,003
London North Western are quite clear. They will get you home or pay for a hotel. I cannot imagine they are being more generous than any other operator.

NO reference to a get out clause in terms of bad weather or 'do not travel' warnings.

Having abandoned all services between Stafford and Crewe via the Stoke-on-Trent wobble this afternoon, and only provided one train in three before any incidents happened, I do hope there are significant numbers of people holding them to this promise.

No RRB provision, no taxis, not even a mention of any cancellations on their website. Every hour I checked, every hour the 'live travel' section stated that the service had left Crewe on time. It still says that even though RTT has it as cancelled!

Hopeless. Complete contempt for the paying customer.

Delay Repay:
If your journey is delayed by 15 minutes or more, you're entitled to compensation under our Delay Repay scheme. Please keep a hold of your ticket and submit your claim within 28 days.

Get your money back if you choose not to travel...
Under the National Rail Conditions of Travel, if you have purchased a ticket and your train is cancelled or delayed, and you choose not to travel, you can return the unused ticket to the retailer you bought the ticket from and you will be given a full refund with no administration fee being charged. This applies to all tickets including those which are usually non-refundable.

We won't leave you stranded...
If it's late in the day, don't worry if you're already travelling - we will look after you. Where it is not possible to carry on by train, we will provide a bus or a taxis - and if all else fails, we'll book you into a hotel.

It shouldn't cost you any more...
You shouldn't have to pay more because of this incident.

We will:

  • refund any additional rail tickets you had to buy to travel by alternative rail routes, where you followed our advice
  • not charge you any extra for parking your car at our stations because of this disruption. Please speak to station staff on arrival at the station.
  • consider reimbursement of any out-of-pocket expenses in exceptional circumstances on a case-by-case basis. Any out-of-pocket costs should be kept to a minimum and any claim supported by an itemised receipt.
Give us the opportunity to help you...
Please let us try and help you before you incur any cost or if you are stranded:

  • speak to staff at our stations or on board our trains
  • call us on 0333 311 0039
  • use the 'Help Point' telephone on the platform at our stations.
  • as a last resort, call National Rail Enquiries 03457 48 49 50 (available 24 hours a day)
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,554
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I'm not sure they could have foreseen storm Dennis when they sold an Advance ticket for a specified train three months ago, or a season ticket a year ago?

It is certainly foreseeable that weather of that nature occurs in the UK. It's not frequent (though we've been unlucky enough to have it two weeks running this year) but it is certainly foreseeable that it occurs (and will occur more due to climate change).

One thing that has largely not occurred due to that weather, though, is mass closure of hotels.
 

Baxenden Bank

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
4,003
Sorry, but this argument doesn't cut it. Last weekend a 'Do Not Travel' was released on Thursday PM for Sunday given people plenty of advance warning, alternative travel options, ticket restrictions lifted etc. They could've traveled back home on the Saturday evening or Monday had travel allowed it. But plenty of people just didn't think that this information related to them and there should be some personal culpability for these kind of decision making - to me it just seems selfish and yes there is always the 1% who had no other option (e.g returning from holiday etc) but not the numbers that were seen last weekend.

I was supposed to go to Edinburgh this weekend. Chose not to - raided Sainsbury's and stayed in all weekend. Why? I took the advice of the rail operators and the Met Office - because they just might know what they're on about.
What is YOUR advice for people already away, having travelled out before Thursday PM. If you have an Advance, and wished to come home early, you were not allowed to do so. This week, the advice for Dennis was to still travel, no refunds were being offered.
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,383
What is YOUR advice for people already away, having travelled out before Thursday PM. If you have an Advance, and wished to come home early, you were not allowed to do so. This week, the advice for Dennis was to still travel, no refunds were being offered.

Well, you were allowed to, but you'd need to buy a new ticket.

The risk you run opting for a cheaper Advance ticket.

My advice would have been - get a new ticket and get home before the worst of the weather.
 

dangie

Member
Joined
4 May 2011
Messages
1,181
Location
Rugeley Staffordshire
According to RealTimeTrains there has been no service at all today on the Chase Line between Birmingham New Street (BHM) and Rugeley. That's to be expected there's flooding.

However looking at the West Midlands Railway website it only says no trains are running between New Street and Walsall. Now I know us on here will know that if there's no trains from BHM to Walsall there'll be none to Rugeley either. But for many travellers that won't be clear.

The rail companies aren't very helpful sometimes.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

al78

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2013
Messages
2,404
It is certainly foreseeable that weather of that nature occurs in the UK. It's not frequent (though we've been unlucky enough to have it two weeks running this year) but it is certainly foreseeable that it occurs (and will occur more due to climate change).

Often storms can come in succession, when the temperature contrast on the other side of the Atlantic is enhanced, boosting the strength of the jet stream, and that jet stream takes aim close too or at the UK, you have a sucession of low pressure systems coming across, and it just needs one or more to interact with the jet in a favourable way to cause explosive cyclogenesis. This happened in the winters of 1989/90 and 2013/14, both of which were very stormy and wet.

I don't think with Dennis, the wind was such a problem, it seems to be primarily a rain event. What has happened this weekend is comparable to the atmospheric river which happend with storm Desmond in December 2015, which dumped record breaking rains on Cumbria. Basically a conveyor belt of very mild air advected from the Caribbean picking up a lot of moisture en-route, then convergence along weather fronts, plus forced ascent by topography, causes that moisture to rain down.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228384-300-atmospheric-rivers-caused-the-uks-worst-floods/
http://www.met.reading.ac.uk/~sgs02rpa/PAPERS/Lavers11GRL.pdf
 

al78

Established Member
Joined
7 Jan 2013
Messages
2,404
Well, you were allowed to, but you'd need to buy a new ticket.

The risk you run opting for a cheaper Advance ticket.

My advice would have been - get a new ticket and get home before the worst of the weather.

When I had an advance ticket in December 2013 booked for a train time which would have coincided with the worst impacts of windstorm Dirk (which was forecast days in advance), I was allowed to travel a day early to pre-empt the storm without having to buy a new ticket (by Virgin and Southern). Why were people not allowed to do that this time?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclone_Dirk (Scroll down to Transport where it mentions people being allowed to travel a day earlier)
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,316
According to RealTimeTrains there has been no service at all today on the Chase Line between Birmingham New Street and Rugeley. That's to be expected there's flooding.

However looking at the West Midlands Railway website it only says no trains are running between New Street and Walsall. Now I know us on here will know that if there's no trains from BHM to Walsall there'll be none to Rugeley either. But for many travellers that won't be clear.

The rail companies aren't very helpful sometimes.

I'm speculating here, but could there be a unit trapped between Walsall and Rugeley under some sort of emergency signalling which isn't being reported to RTT etc?
 

Llanigraham

Established Member
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,074
Location
Powys
There have been threads over the years on this website that discuss the possibility of re-opening of the Carmarthen to Aberystwyth former rail line. Can anyone say how the areas passed through by that particular line have fared over the last two days.

It would have been totally waterlogged, especially across Traeth Mawr, the big bog near Tregaron.
 

Glenn1969

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2019
Messages
1,983
Location
Halifax, Yorks
Meanwhile more strong winds and rain are forecast for Thurs/Fri. So Ellen maybe on her way. I wonder when we will get some respite and really hope the infrastructure can cope and can in some way be made more resilient
 

Baxenden Bank

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
4,003
Well, you were allowed to, but you'd need to buy a new ticket.

The risk you run opting for a cheaper Advance ticket.

My advice would have been - get a new ticket and get home before the worst of the weather.

Taking the final point first, we are not all on train drivers salaries. It may be that paying for an Advance, as soon as they are released, is the only way I can afford to make a journey. Paying again, especially last minute walk-up prices, will cause significant financial problems. I have an Advance to the west coast of Scotland in a few weeks time. Bargain at £25.50 each way. Paying a further £170+ for a new ticket when I already have a perfectly valid one is not an option.

Turning to the previous point. No, it is the risk the rail industry runs by offering passengers bargain basement tickets where they (the passenger) is then tied to travelling on a specific train, which they (the operator) are then unable to operate, nor offer any alternative. A free refund, stranding me hundreds of miles from home, is not an option.
 

Scotrail314209

Established Member
Joined
1 Feb 2017
Messages
2,346
Location
Edinburgh
Storm Dennis done a number on the Inverclyde line this weekend.

Saturday there was flooding at Langbank, Today an aqueduct at Bishopton broke and gushed tons of water onto the live OHLE. Very lucky there wasn’t a train there.
 

Elecman

Established Member
Joined
31 Dec 2013
Messages
2,881
Location
Lancashire
Storm Dennis done a number on the Inverclyde line this weekend.
Saturday there was flooding at Langbank, Today an aqueduct at Bishopton broke and gushed tons of water onto the live OHLE. Very lucky there wasn’t a train there.

The Aqueduct didn’t break If was full of vegetation so it’s through flow was badly affected and it therefore overtopped
 

philthetube

Established Member
Joined
5 Jan 2016
Messages
3,749
If it was employer-initiated certainly (and my employer indeed did when the ash cloud stranded me abroad on a work trip), but not if that person took the job based in London themselves.

I do hope that you made similar comments about the lack of air replacement boats and coaches as it would be possible to run these despite the ash cloud.

I also wonder what your views are on the tourists who had to be rescued from the top of Ben Nevis, advice is not to go but they did anyway, had the rescue not been sucessful would the council have been to blame despite everything.

The advice was not to travel, anyone who decides to risk it deserves what they get, I think NIRCOT should be changed to absolve the TOC's from their responsibilities after giving this advice, they should also be required to allow travel on the day before or after the advice is for.
 

SuperNova

Member
Joined
12 Dec 2019
Messages
957
Location
The North
It's not always that simple though is it. I, like an increasing number of people, work away from home for a week or more at a time. If I have to travel home on a given day, I have to - it's not a non essential journey and, often, can't be rearranged with anything less than 10 days notice. I'm also self-employed, so I would be very, very surprised if my 'clients' were willing to foot the bill.

Disruption I can accept, but my contract with the train company is clear: get me there, by alternative transport if needs be; or if not put me up in a hotel.

Other than one occasion when I had to 'encourage' a Northern staff member to get me a taxi (I was perfectly polite, I should add, just firm) I've never had any problems. But, I would have absolutely no hesitation at all in taking a TOC to court if I was treated in the way other passengers have been this, and last, weekend.

It comes down to this: a contract is a contract. Weather like this is not unforeseeable, and TOCs were well aware it could happen when they entered into a contract with me. I have every right to expect, even demand, that they meet their responsibilities, and to enforce that right if needs be.

If a threat to life warning is issued and people ignore Do Not Travel warnings 48+ hours in advance, that's a different kettle of fish. Of course, as I explained, some circumstances are different. However, you can't tell me that all those people who chose to travel last Sunday needed to and couldn't have traveled the day before or after. It's nonsense - some people simply don't think that the advice given applies to them and for them I have no sympathy. It seems too many are quite happy to put the safety of others at risk.
 

Toast is nice

Member
Joined
21 Jan 2020
Messages
10
Location
Haddington
I am in the CS southbound Lowlander. All going tickety-boo (and about 10 mins ahead of schedule) but have come to a halt north of Stafford and been stuck here for well over half an hour. I am no expert on either trains or topography but a quick look at Google Maps suggest that area around Shugburough looks like it might get a bit moist... Anyone know what’s up?
 

Toast is nice

Member
Joined
21 Jan 2020
Messages
10
Location
Haddington
I am in the CS southbound Lowlander. All going tickety-boo (and about 10 mins ahead of schedule) but have come to a halt north of Stafford and been stuck here for well over half an hour. I am no expert on either trains or topography but a quick look at Google Maps suggest that area around Shugburough looks like it might get a bit moist... Anyone know what’s up?

On the move again now...(via Tamworth and Nuneaton though, I think)
 
Last edited:

iainbhx

Member
Joined
8 Jul 2014
Messages
211
It's all very damp around Stafford. The 07:15 Birmingham to Glasgow just proceeded through the Stafford area quite slowly until Norton Bridge, lots of standing water on both sides of the line and it hasn't rained heavily for about 12 hours here.
 

Mathew S

Established Member
Joined
7 Aug 2017
Messages
2,167
If a threat to life warning is issued and people ignore Do Not Travel warnings 48+ hours in advance, that's a different kettle of fish. Of course, as I explained, some circumstances are different. However, you can't tell me that all those people who chose to travel last Sunday needed to and couldn't have traveled the day before or after. It's nonsense - some people simply don't think that the advice given applies to them and for them I have no sympathy. It seems too many are quite happy to put the safety of others at risk.
The problem, I think, isn't people being reckless so much as it's the fact that, to the individual, of course their journey is 'essential'. Random examples, but the person who has non-refundable tickets to a gig, a non-flexible hotel booking, or had arranged to visit an elderly relative, etc. Whilst, objectively, we might argue those are non-essential journeys, they're not likely to be seen as such by the people actually making them.

Ultimately, the railway can ask people not to travel but, genuinely unforeseeable events aside (which this weather wasn't), if people do decide to travel the TOCs have to stick to their side if the contract and provide transport and/or accommodation.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top