Stranded At Berney Arms

[duncanp]

Indeed - there should be a notice at Berney Arms station informing passengers what to do if the train doesn't turn up.

After all someone who has paid for a ticket has a contract with the train company to be conveyed to their destination (not necessarily on time, or by train)

I seem to recall that some stations on the Settle - Carlisle line have a help point that is connected to the signal box.

So perhaps the help point at Berney Arms needs to be re-routed to someone who is able to help out.

After all there is vehicular access (albeit down a private road) to the pub (otherwise how would the beer get delivered) so it wouldn't be impossible for the TOC to order a taxi from Great Yarmouth and send it down there to pick up anyone who is stranded by a cancellation.

 

[Greenback]

As long as the Help point can provide some help, it doesn't really matter what that help is. The point is that having the Help Point direct the passenger to someone who isn't aware of the real time situation, is no help at all. All it is, in reality, is a timetable and fares enquiry point. It doesn't matter much where the member of staff is located, it;s the information that they have access to that is crucial.

 

[Zoidberg]

...

After all there is vehicular access (albeit down a private road) to the pub (otherwise how would the beer get delivered) so it wouldn't be impossible for the TOC to order a taxi from Great Yarmouth and send it down there to pick up anyone who is stranded by a cancellation.

There's been a few posts mentioning access via a private road, all, seemingly, with the assumption that access will be permitted to collect the stranded passengers.

If it was my private road, I'd not take kindly to someone, not entitled to, simply deciding to use it.

Ought not the responsible parties ensure that there is an agreement in place to use the private road to gain access for cases such as this.

Maybe such an agreement exists.

 

[Richard1960]

In this instance yes, but as the station has no road access had they turned up and seen a PIS showing "Cancelled" they should have been in the position to walk to the nearest road for a taxi at railway expense, or not gone there at all.

There is no PIS at Berney Arms.!

I was there a few weeks ago.

The real problem here it would seem is lack of any interaction via the help point on the station and the Indian Call Centre and Abellio Greater anglia customer services in Norwich.

Surely its not beyond the wit of man that the call centre in India could call customers services in Norwich and find out what exactly the problem was.

 

[Greenback]

The call centre could be in Cardiff, Plymouth or Timbuktoo. If they don't have access to live information, and they don't have the training or knowledge on how to contact someone who does, or find things out for themselves in other ways, it won't make any difference where they are!

It's the 21st century, and I think it's appalling that this sort of thing can happen. Something needs to be done, and I'd very much like to see the result of the investigation Abellio is supposed to be carrying out.

 

[Richard1960]

The call centre could be in Cardiff, Plymouth or Timbuktoo. If they don't have access to live information, and they don't have the training or knowledge on how to contact someone who does, or find things out for themselves in other ways, it won't make any difference where they are!

It's the 21st century, and I think it's appalling that this sort of thing can happen. Something needs to be done, and I'd very much like to see the result of the investigation Abellio is supposed to be carrying out.

Totally agree with you on that.

 

[duncanp]

Yes I agree with you.

If it is a private road, then the TOC should contact the owner first to obtain permission to send a taxi to pick up stranded passengers.

Or preferably negotiate an agreement in advance for such circumstances.

 

[Phil.]

Total failure by the rail industry!

The passengers job is to get themselves to the station in good time. They did that - 30 minutes early.

They used the help point as instructed.

They waited patiently, being at the station for 3 hours and 20 minutes before 'phoning the police.

Just how much equipment do the righteous posters on this thread expect a family with 2 small kids to carry with them? Do you really expect, a probably already tired 3 year old to walk back to Great Yarmouth (and a parent to carry a 3 month old), or Reedham, or to go and stand by the nearest main road and flag down a passing bus late on a Sunday afternoon? How much additional water should they carry?

Berney Arms is served by road, it is just a private road and rough surfaced. A taxi can get there if necessary. A minibus can get there if necessary.
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Surely the fact that the call is answered in India (or Scotland) is not relevant, it is the lack of communication between the call centre, Network Rail and Abellio.

The contractual agreements between the three should be good enough to ensure that issues raised through a help point are appropriately handled and responded to.

Well said Sir. Too many people both within and without the rail system seem to think that passengers should be as nerdy as they often are about ticketing regulations and timetables.

 

[HLE]

Thanks for the update about the Berney Arms pub. Will just have to assume that it is closed. However I will check and report back if it does happen to be open.

Have booked a return trip from London on 4th June, and will walk along the River Yare to Reedham.

Any recommendations for good pubs in Reedham?

The ferryman - next to the car ferry but not in the main village.

Or the pub whose name escapes me that is also on the river, with Reedham swing bridge to the left

 

[Crossover]

The really shoddy bit of this is probably this quote:
“Thirty minutes later we were told the train had already served Berney Arms and was arriving into Norwich which clearly was not the case as we were standing on a single platform.”

Clearly someone had access to the relevant data but didn't/couldn't interpret that there is more than one route it can take

This appears to be the service in question - I wonder if the Reedham entry is an oddity in the system - I don't think it could have gone Reedham to Great Yarmouth in 6 mins generally
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L81416/2016/05/08/advanced

 

[OwlMan]

The ferryman - next to the car ferry but not in the main village.

Or the pub whose name escapes me that is also on the river, with Reedham swing bridge to the left

The Ship?

 

[2HAP]

http://www.norfolkpubs.co.uk/norfolkr/reedham/reedind.htm Pubs in Reedham, Norfolk (past and present)

 

[MedwayValiant]

Just a minor point of clarification. The boat which conducted this rescue was the Broads Inshore Lifeboat, which is operated not by the RNLI but by the Hemsby Inshore Rescue Service. HIRS has posted an incident report on its Facebook page, which states:

" Paged by Humber Coastguard at 17:35hrs on the 8th May to a family in distress. The Broads Lifeboat was launched and proceeded towards The Berney Arms, west of Breydon water to reports of a family (2 adults, 1 infant and 1 baby) stranded on the western bank with no means of returning to Gt.Yarmouth due to a fault on the main rail line and with the approaching sunset. The family were safely boarded onto the Lifeboat and taken to Goodchild Marine, who opened their gates for access, where the family were then transported back to Gt.Yarmouth. Hemsby Lifeboat returned to station and were back on service at 23:10hrs."

Hemsby Inshore Rescue Service is a voluntary organization reliant on donations, and relevant parts of the railway industry should certainly be thinking about making one.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

Yes I agree with you.

If it is a private road, then the TOC should contact the owner first to obtain permission to send a taxi to pick up stranded passengers.

Or preferably negotiate an agreement in advance for such circumstances.

In general, if it is a private road, there is a good chance that there are gates padlocked shut.

 

[infobleep]

TOC's twitter accounts are the fastest and best way of getting help from my experience. Depends which one though I guess.

Also depends on whether you have any data connectivity. If on 02 or anyone using their network, you might be more out of luck than you would like.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[bramling]

Is it not reasonable to expect the TOC to get you from A to B, regardless of if the train is cancelled or not? Why should a passenger have to plan (and pay for) additional transport options?

I feel at times too much blame is placed on the passengers, and not the companies operating a service.

All well and good, but Berney Arms is hardly the typical sort of station.

It's obvious on maps that the station is remote and has no road access, and reality is that there's always a possibility the train might not turn up.

What would happen if the train turned up too full to board?

 

[Kite159]

Also depends on whether you have any data connectivity. If on 02 or anyone using their network, you might be more out of luck than you would like.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

I had a good HSPA (3.5G) data signal on my phone when at Berney Arms, a few months ago, and that was on Tesco (which piggybacks onto O2)

 

[Bletchleyite]

To me the issue isn't so much who pays, as that someone going into remote countryside (whether by train or otherwise) needs to be prepared with suitable provisions and protection to be able to spend a prolonged period there in the event of emergency (I'm thinking stuff like enough water for a good few hours, not so much a tent!)

Just because it has a station doesn't mean it's not remote. Get off the last train of the day at Altnabreac or one of the remote West Highland stations without proper equipment in winter and you'll likely be dead by morning.

 

[pitdiver]

For those who are interested here is a link to a YouTube video published in April of this year showing the current condition of "The Berney Arms Pub"

www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiNWhsP6FQk

 

[DarloRich]

To me the issue isn't so much who pays, as that someone going into remote countryside (whether by train or otherwise) needs to be prepared with suitable provisions and protection to be able to spend a prolonged period there in the event of emergency (I'm thinking stuff like enough water for a good few hours, not so much a tent!)

Just because it has a station doesn't mean it's not remote. Get off the last train of the day at Altnabreac or one of the remote West Highland stations without proper equipment in winter and you'll likely be dead by morning.

they weren't climbing in the Cairngorms - they went for a walk in Norfolk, close to a large ( if grotty) town with the reasonable expectation that the booked train service might turn up! You shouldn't have to pack survival gear for an afternoon trip out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

they weren't climbing in the Cairngorms - they went for a walk in Norfolk, close to a large ( if grotty) town with the reasonable expectation that the booked train service might turn up! You shouldn't have to pack survival gear for an afternoon trip out.

You can be in a remote area without being in mountains. In the situation (small children) the risk was much greater than a pair of fit adults. They were not prepared. They made a silly error which could have caused them to end up quite ill.

If people don't get that and really need nannying in such a situation, they should close the station. It has no other purpose.

 

[duncanp]

You can be in a remote area without being in mountains. In the situation (small children) the risk was much greater than a pair of fit adults. They were not prepared. They made a silly error which could have caused them to end up quite ill.

If people don't get that and really need nannying in such a situation, they should close the station. It has no other purpose.

What nonsense.

You can have a debate about whether the station should be open or closed. That is a separate issue.

The fact is that it was open and people have a perfectly reasonable expectation that trains should run to the published timetable. If the advertised train service does not run, then the train company still has a responsibility to get you to your destination.

The Help Point at Berney Arms should be connected to someone is gave give practical help when someone is stranded. There should also be a notice at the station to say "call the help point if the train does not arrrive within fifteen minutes of the advertised time"

 

[DarloRich]

You can be in a remote area without being in mountains. In the situation (small children) the risk was much greater than a pair of fit adults. They were not prepared. They made a silly error which could have caused them to end up quite ill.

If people don't get that and really need nannying in such a situation, they should close the station. It has no other purpose.

you don't half spout some stuff at times!

How much water should they pack? one bottle each? 2? 17? How many hours between advertised train services should people prepare to be stranded?

Should they pack water purification tablets, flares, body bags? What would be preparing in your book?

They went for a short walk in easy country from a railway station with a reasonable expectation that the advertised train would arrive to take them home as I assume it deposited them earlier in the day. No they doubt prepared accordingly for those circumstances. It shouldn't take a volunteer life boat to provide that service!

IF they were out in rough country miles from anywhere i would agree. They weren't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How much water should they pack? one bottle each? 2? 17? How many hours between advertised train services should people prepare to be stranded?

As there is no public road access, when planning such a trip they should prepare for the eventuality of having to walk to the nearest road access (a few miles) and phone for a taxi, which the railway should pay for. Though it would be wise to carry sufficient cash to pay for it and reclaim.

If that isn't viable, it is not sensible to go there. There are plenty of other places you can go with populated buildings and public road access.

What do you expect, a rail replacement helicopter service?

Should they pack water purification tablets, flares, body bags? What would be preparing in your book?

Don't be ridiculous.

I would suggest that they needed:-

1. Sufficient cover against the sun i.e. long sleeved, white tops and sun hats
2. Sun cream sufficient for a couple of applications
3. A couple of litres of water per person including the children (maybe a litre would suffice for the very small one).
4. Food to suffice if they had to walk out - perhaps a couple of boxes of granola bars or similar.
5. Warm clothes and waterproofs (it is British weather! )

If I took my Scouts there, that's what I'd have.

They went for a short walk in easy country from a railway station with a reasonable expectation that the advertised train would arrive to take them home as I assume it deposited them earlier in the day. No they doubt prepared accordingly for those circumstances. It shouldn't take a volunteer life boat to provide that service!

Without permission to use a private road which may be gated as the pub is closed, how else would it have been provided?

I agree the Help Point service was inadequate, but equally I wouldn't have thought "walk to the nearest public road and we will send a taxi" to have been a wrong answer from it, just a bit earlier! They should also have prepared for the eventuality of the help point not working and their phone running out of battery.

Actually, I mention the Scouts...our definition of remoteness is not just mountains etc - we need a qualification to lead a hike which is more than 30 minutes travelling time on foot from the nearest public road or inhabited building. Due to the closure of the pub, Berney Arms might well fail that!

Think about it. It truly is an exception. People need to be able to look after themselves in what is a remote area.
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2 minutes with Google Street View shows that the road is gated. Therefore a railway taxi would probably not gain access.

Other than not cancelling the train, again, what would you propose they did?

 

[hounddog]

They made a silly error which could have caused them to end up quite ill.

The only error I can see is believing the helpline when they were told the train was on its way. How much incorrect information from an incompetent railway should they have allowed for?

 

[Tetchytyke]

They made a silly error which could have caused them to end up quite ill.

The only error they made was believing the NRES staff member who told them the train was on the way. That was why they ended up on the platform for hours and hours, with dusk coming. If NRES had done their job properly- "no the train's not coming, can you walk to the main road, we'll pick you up in a taxi from there"- none of this would have happened. If they'd been told to set off walking at 1pm they'd have had time to do it safely, the walk is a little under five miles back to Great Yarmouth. Leave them waiting until 6pm before telling them and suddenly they don't.

Of course the real issue is that the help point went to someone in India rather than someone in Norfolk who might actually know where the hell Berney Arms actually is.

 

[Starmill]

Could Abellio Greater Anglia make a donation to the RNLI? Is that permissible?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only error they made was believing the NRES staff member who told them the train was on the way. That was why they ended up on the platform for hours and hours, with dusk coming. If NRES had done their job properly- "no the train's not coming, can you walk to the main road, we'll pick you up in a taxi from there"- none of this would have happened. If they'd been told to set off walking at 1pm they'd have had time to do it safely, the walk is a little under five miles back to Great Yarmouth. Leave them waiting until 6pm before telling them and suddenly they don't.

Of course the real issue is that the help point went to someone in India rather than someone in Norfolk who might actually know where the hell Berney Arms actually is.

This is all a good point - and I am now increasingly thinking that NRES, a service that has always been very hit and miss, has had its day and should be closed. TOCs can handle timetable enquiries well enough, and Help Points need to go to the TOC control (probably a dedicated person, but one would probably suffice), not a call centre.

I should clarify that the thing that made me think they were unprepared was the talk of sunburn and dehydration - both of which would have occurred with a 5 mile walk if they were unequipped. They were unequipped both for sitting on a platform and for a 5 mile walk.

I agree the help point should have gone somewhere useful, which should have advised them to walk to the road for a railway provided taxi. But then again...it's a remote station...personally I would not have planned on the assumption that the help point was even working, or even existed in the first place. I'm surprised it has any infrastructure other than the sleeper-edged cinder platform (not many of those left!) and a nameboard!

 

[AndyPJG]

Could Abellio Greater Anglia make a donation to the RNLI? Is that permissible?

See post #43.

 

[Greenback]

NRES should not be closed, it should just be run properly.