Stranded At Berney Arms

[DarloRich]

I was on the broads with my family in 1980, and I never saw any freight on any of the lines. We moored near Reedham, Berney Arms and Somerleyton and I kept my eyes open for any and all trains!

perhaps we should split this off into another topic?

Last freight on rural routes?

 

[Greenback]

perhaps we should split this off into another topic?

Last freight on rural routes?

Good idea! I've started a new thread and moved a couple of posts from here.

 

[lejog]

Having looked at a map, it appears to be on a line all of its own - so closure potentially would give significant savings. Does freight use it or just this service? Or is maintenance so cheap of such an infrequently-served single line with tourist interest that it actually makes a profit?

I suggest you read Wiki, the railway tried to end services to Berney Arms a couple of years after opening. The High Court decreed that the station is to be served in perpetuity. You would need Parliament to overide the original act orthe court system to overide precedence

Norwich to Yarmouth via Reedham trains use the line.
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There are a few videos about of the pub, and it doesn't look the nicest in the world, bit like a fairly scummy estate pub.

Wash your mouth out. I spent much of my earlier life drinking in basic country pubs like this in North Hertfordshire, along with the locals, anyone from a labourer to the lord of the manor.

Sadly most have closed or have been sanitised to cater for the mealies on wheelies brigade, but there are still a few gems.

 

[Camden]

In this instance yes, but as the station has no road access had they turned up and seen a PIS showing "Cancelled" they should have been in the position to walk to the nearest road for a taxi at railway expense, or not gone there at all.

Why? Not aware of anything in the NRCoC that says passengers should be prepared at all times to walk should all trains be cancelled, nor anything that says they should have to get themselves to an easy location for a taxi pickup. The fact it's remote and poorly served is of no relevance. There is a train service and if the train is cancelled then they should be got to where they need to be by other means. It's a 5 mile walk to the edge of the nearest urban area, and if what you say were to be the case then you may as well close the stop entirely as no one in their right minds would use it ever. Perhaps if they didn't have a mobile phone with them you might be able to call them "badly prepared", but otherwise I do not think so.

 

[scott118]

There are a few videos about of the pub, and it doesn't look the nicest in the world, bit like a fairly scummy estate pub.

wow.

probably the most sanctimonious and pompous post, I've read on this forum.

 

[Bletchleyite]

wow.

probably the most sanctimonious and pompous post, I've read on this forum.

That seems a little over the top - it just didn't look a particularly nice pub!
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Why? Not aware of anything in the NRCoC that says passengers should be prepared at all times to walk should all trains be cancelled, nor anything that says they should have to get themselves to an easy location for a taxi pickup. The fact it's remote and poorly served is of no relevance. There is a train service and if the train is cancelled then they should be got to where they need to be by other means. It's a 5 mile walk to the edge of the nearest urban area, and if what you say were to be the case then you may as well close the stop entirely as no one in their right minds would use it ever. Perhaps if they didn't have a mobile phone with them you might be able to call them "badly prepared", but otherwise I do not think so.

In that case, it should close immediately.

Would you expect them to send a helicopter if the train at Altnabreac was cancelled?

People have to look after themselves properly. If you choose to go somewhere remote, you choose to accept some consequences if, as is inevitable at some point, something goes wrong.
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I suggest you read Wiki, the railway tried to end services to Berney Arms a couple of years after opening. The High Court decreed that the station is to be served in perpetuity. You would need Parliament to overide the original act orthe court system to overide precedence

Only if someone who would benefit from the initial deed of covenant (or similar) raised it with the Courts, I guess. Is a descendent of the original landowner in the position to do that? Would they care to do that? It sounds rather similar to the deeds of covenant you get on houses that are basically unenforceable.

 

[bramling]

That seems a little over the top - it just didn't look a particularly nice pub!
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In that case, it should close immediately.

Would you expect them to send a helicopter if the train at Altnabreac was cancelled?

People have to look after themselves properly. If you choose to go somewhere remote, you choose to accept some consequences if, as is inevitable at some point, something goes wrong.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm generally in agreement with this. Regardless of the rights or wrongs of what alternative arrangements a TOC could, might or should make, the *reality* of the situation is there's always the possibility that the train won't turn up. The remoteness of the location then becomes a potential problem compared to most stations.

It is definitely a good idea to plan round the possibility of the train not turning up.

The wrong information from NRES is another matter however - that was bad and shouldn't have happened.

I haven't yet been to Berney Arms but it is on my "to do" list at some point. Even before this my plan was to alight from a train and then walk to either Yarmouth or Reedham, precisely to avoid the risk of being stranded there. Same with the likes of Altnabreac, Rannoch, Stanlow & Thornton or even British Steel Redcar.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've alighted the last train, camped and then boarded at Altnabreac in the middle of winter. A magical experience when properly equipped (and the guard was very sure to make sure I was properly equipped before letting me off!) but I did accept that there was the chance of a long walk out to civilisation if something had gone wrong. Fortunately it didn't, and at about 6am the next day I enjoyed the nicest cup of railway coffee I have ever had.

 

[lejog]

That seems a little over the top - it just didn't look a particularly nice pub!

I have to agree totally with scott118, calling a pub scummy is particularly unpleasant. I doubt I find the type of pubs you frequent to my taste, but I don't insult them. The Berney Arms was nominated pub of the year many times by the local CAMRA branch and has been listed by the local council as an "Asset of Communuty Value" so I'm by no means alone in having a view different from you.

In that case, it should close immediately.

Would you expect them to send a helicopter if the train at Altnabreac was cancelled?

More complete nonsense, it is perfectly feasible to drive a normal car/van to Altnabreac. Indeed in season many fisherman do, to fish in the lochs. Yes the road is gated, but when I passed by the gates weren't locked at Forsinain or Strathmore Lodge - indeed at Strathmore the Royal Mail van was entering as I left.

I doubt any gate on the Berney Arms track is locked, since it serves 2 or 3 farms, a few houses and a major pumping station, and Berney Arms the settlement.

I must admit I'm a little surprised the police didn't send a car, having worked on police command and control IT systems in my younger days the emergency services would have the route to Berney Arms on their control system and contact numbers for any locked gates. But they decided to pass it to the Coastguard, perhaps they were busy.

People have to look after themselves properly. If you choose to go somewhere remote, you choose to accept some consequences if, as is inevitable at some point, something goes wrong.

Yes but the railways also have a duty to their passengers. The argument that Berney Arms/Altnabreac are too inaccessible is complete and utter rubbish (although I wouldn't expect anyone from Milton Keynes to comprehend this).

Only if someone who would benefit from the initial deed of covenant (or similar) raised it with the Courts, I guess. Is a descendent of the original landowner in the position to do that? Would they care to do that? It sounds rather similar to the deeds of covenant you get on houses that are basically unenforceable.

More complete and utter poppycock. Your guess is completely wrong and you are again showing complete and utter ignorance of the situation. Its nothing at all to do with "Deeds of Covenants" or the rights of landowners. The High Court decided that an Act of Parliament should be interpreted that trains should serve the station in perpetuity.

As I previously stated, that can only be overridden by the Parliament changing the Act or the High Court changing its mind. If the railway tried to stop serving the station, anybody could apply for a Court Order to prevent it, it would be an illegal act, contrary to the sovereign will of Parliament.

(*Here I have to admit there is a possibility Parliament has changed the bill via subsequent legislation.)

I'm afraid this forum badly needs a block members function.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm afraid this forum badly needs a block members function.

For all I think we often disagree, I can't see why you would want that, because it would remove your ability to post your disagreement.

 

[lejog]

Just a couple more points about "helicopters to Altnabreac" -

- Altnabreac was served by a post bus service until a few years ago, (IIRC Royal Mail axed their Highland post bus services in around 2010???). If Royal Mail can run a bus service there.........
- The Lochdu Lodge was a hotel until 1975. I'm sure lots of visitors took the train and walked there.

Courtesy of this page.

 

[AndyPJG]

I would suggest that they needed:-

1. Sufficient cover against the sun i.e. long sleeved, white tops and sun hats
2. Sun cream sufficient for a couple of applications
3. A couple of litres of water per person including the children (maybe a litre would suffice for the very small one).
4. Food to suffice if they had to walk out - perhaps a couple of boxes of granola bars or similar.
5. Warm clothes and waterproofs (it is British weather! )

If I took my Scouts there, that's what I'd have.

So equally you need to carry water in case you're stranded ON a train when that fails to reach a station for reasons outside your control?

In both cases you're stranded due to failures by NR/ToC.

 

[Llanigraham]

In that case, it should close immediately.

As has been pointed out earlier, this station is mentioned in the Enabling Act for the line and it would need Parliamentary time for the Act to be altered.
That costs money and time, and I cannot see NR or the TOC sponsoring a Bill to do that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So equally you need to carry water in case you're stranded ON a train when that fails to reach a station for reasons outside your control?

In both cases you're stranded due to failures by NR/ToC.

It's not an utterly terrible idea to carry water for any situation where you might need it, airports aside. I usually do.

 

[Starmill]

I try not to go anywhere without at least some water so I'm not anxious about getting thirsty, which seems to happen to me more quickly than most. In similar fashion, it's a good idea to use the facilities even if you don't really need to before boarding, especially if there are none onboard.

 

[tsr]

I doubt any gate on the Berney Arms track is locked, since it serves 2 or 3 farms, a few houses and a major pumping station, and Berney Arms the settlement.

I must admit I'm a little surprised the police didn't send a car, having worked on police command and control IT systems in my younger days the emergency services would have the route to Berney Arms on their control system and contact numbers for any locked gates. But they decided to pass it to the Coastguard, perhaps they were busy.

Yes but the railways also have a duty to their passengers. The argument that Berney Arms/Altnabreac are too inaccessible is complete and utter rubbish (although I wouldn't expect anyone from Milton Keynes to comprehend this).

I wouldn't be surprised if the gates on routes to Berney Arms were locked and secured; I am extensively familiar with how the farming community and many of their neighbours operate in this part of Norfolk, and indeed my family and I have known many local farmers for some years. There is a definite acceptance of footpath and bridleway use, and anything reasonable which surrounds it; however, many of the tracks and byways in that area involve hazards such as unmarked dykes and marshes, and access to fields containing valuable livestock, and as such you do not anybody able to drive through them at will, or take anything away. And before anybody posts any photos of unlocked gates, you'll find that there is generally a lot more security of late than there was. I keep on finding newly padlocked gates in that area which make things rather awkward, which nobody's told me about, and I've got permission to access the places I go to...

The A47 vaguely near Berney Arms, and the public roads surrounding it, has an almost disproportionately high number of police patrols which do keep a good eye out for this sort of activity (as well as speeding and breakdowns on the single carriageway - another two major targets for them), but farmers will also be very vigilant, and funnily enough pumping station operators tend to keep a tight perimeter around crucial facilities to prevent disruption caused by third party damage.

If you need to contact a landowner, tenant or other responsible party to access the gates, there can be several complications. That area of Norfolk has notoriously poor phone signal; if the farmer is not in range, you won't be able to call them to get the keys. There may not be a practical landline alternative. You have to hope that the keys are also not five fields away in that shed over there. And you have to identify exactly which access point is needed, and direct replacement transport to it. Network Rail will be familiar, but the local taxi companies may not be - Berney Arms will not be a regular job. Then you have to hope the taxis are not busy with easier jobs in Yarmouth or Reedham or Cantley or... you know, somewhere with more people. BTP will have to deploy one of their resources instead, and thus probably think it to be much easier to get another party in to the site by means of boat, and as it happens there are a number of appropriate rescue services. Berney Arms may be hard to get to by road, but it is not especially hard to get to by water if you are a competent Broads user; this sort of thing would definitely take up valuable time, but it would be an easier task than using a road, if the channels are all navigable at that time of day. You don't need to unlock any gates for that, and it's a perfectly safe method of transport - far better than driving down endless boggy farm tracks at twilight.

 

[theironroad]

Having walked from Yarmouth to Berney Arms yesterday afternoon, it's safe to say the pub is in a very poor state. It's a shade over 5 miles and while I walked along the sea wall the track seemed OK, but it's accessible by most cars I would have thought, though I didn't check to see if gates are locked.

A tired family with small kids would probably find the walk back to Yarmouth a drag, but I did notice 2 numbers for taxi firms on the station info board and I did have signal and data throughout (o2/giffgaff).

I got to the station about 20 minutes early, potterted about, saw a headlight and train, stuck my hand out and the 1754 whisked me back to Norwich.

However, the more official advice seems to be to take the train TO Berney and then start the walk from there and ending in Yarmouth, which seems sensible especially if there is any chance of missing a train from Berney. (I also couldnt find any notices at the station to tell potential passengers that it is a request stop and that they will need to flag the train down).

However, I do feel for the family involved as it is certainly a pretty remote stop.

 

[cornishjohn]

More complete nonsense, it is perfectly feasible to drive a normal car/van to Altnabreac.

I can imagine scenarios where roads are blocked by snow in Scotland making access tricky.

Yes but the railways also have a duty to their passengers. The argument that Berney Arms/Altnabreac are too inaccessible is complete and utter rubbish (although I wouldn't expect anyone from Milton Keynes to comprehend this).

Surely this duty is limited in some sense of what is "reasonably practicable". And in what if the putative passenger that has hiked into the station expecting a pickup but has not yet bought a ticket? There is no contract in place to bring the NRCOC into action! (Although I can see that with this Berney Arms family they probably did have a ticket.)

Clearly the police thought access to Berney Arms sufficiently tricky they organised boat transport instead!

What is important is finding out sooner rather than later that the rail industry is unable to perform due to particular circumstances, but sadly the help point failed to achieve this.

 

[theironroad]

I can imagine scenarios where roads are blocked by snow in Scotland making access tricky.



Surely this duty is limited in some sense of what is "reasonably practicable". And in what if the putative passenger that has hiked into the station expecting a pickup but has not yet bought a ticket? There is no contract in place to bring the NRCOC into action! (Although I can see that with this Berney Arms family they probably did have a ticket.)

Clearly the police thought access to Berney Arms sufficiently tricky they organised boat transport instead!

What is important is finding out sooner rather than later that the rail industry is unable to perform due to particular circumstances, but sadly the help point failed to achieve this.

I'm no lawyer and imagine this could get convoluted, but as Berney has no ticket issuing facilities, potential passengers are entitled to request the train to stop and buy a ticket at the earliest opportunity. When I boarded at Berney on Friday, the guard who opened the local door asked if I needed a ticket or did I have one. (I did have my return from Yarmouth to Norwich).

 

[EbbwJunction1]

To answer an earlier question, it seems that the Baronetcy of Berney still exists.

The Berney Baronetcy, of Parkehall in Redham in the County of Norfolk, is a title in the Baronetage of England. It was created on 5 May 1620 for Richard Berney, Sheriff of Norfolk in 1622.

The 8th Baronet, Sir Hanson Berney, oversaw the renovation and extension of the family seat, Barton (Bendish) Hall. Designed by James & Turner of Norwich, the existing east wing was renovated and the south-west double wing was added in 1865. Sir Hanson also established the village pub known at today as “The Berney Arms".

The 10th Baronet was Sir Thomas Reedham Berney (1893–1975) and he was succeeded by Sir Julian Reedham Stuart Berney, 11th Baronet (born 1952).
The heir apparent to the baronetcy is William Reedham John Berney (born 1980), eldest son of the 11th Baronet.

 

[jumble]

This reminds me of a friends experience at the very same station
He and his wife left their car at Great Yarmouth got on a train got off and decided to walk back from Berney Arms along Braydon
They got off the train which then went on its way and his wife who had been advised to wear her high hiking boots but didn't promptly stepped in a cow pat.
She stamped her feet and demanded to go back and squawked "When is the next train ?"
She was not particularly amused by the answer " Tomorrow Morning"
Fortunately a few wines at The Berney Arms pub placated matters.

 

[Richard1960]

This reminds me of a friends experience at the very same station
He and his wife left their car at Great Yarmouth got on a train got off and decided to walk back from Berney Arms along Braydon
They got off the train which then went on its way and his wife who had been advised to wear her high hiking boots but didn't promptly stepped in a cow pat.
She stamped her feet and demanded to go back and squawked "When is the next train ?"
She was not particularly amused by the answer " Tomorrow Morning"
Fortunately a few wines at The Berney Arms pub placated matters.

Sadly you could not do that now,the Berney Arms is closed and in an awful state.ad:ad:

 

[scott118]

http://www.edp24.co.uk/property/nor...ey_arms_to_be_auctioned_for_140_000_1_4541698

The Berney Arms pub on the Norfolk Broads has been put up for sale along with two former wooden lodges, two static caravans and various other buildings situated on the Broads alongside the River Yare.

 

[signol]

Thanks for the update about the Berney Arms pub. Will just have to assume that it is closed. However I will check and report back if it does happen to be open.

Have booked a return trip from London on 4th June, and will walk along the River Yare to Reedham.

Any recommendations for good pubs in Reedham?

I grew up in Reedham, and can recommend the Ship as the best of the 3 current pubs. It's on the quay, right next to the railway swing bridge.

signol

 

[Tio Terry]

I grew up in Reedham, and can recommend the Ship as the best of the 3 current pubs. It's on the quay, right next to the railway swing bridge.

signol

Reedham Ferry used to be very good, but my experience of the place is around 20 years ago and a lot can change in that time.

The Ship used to be owned by a Big Band Leader, I think it was Alan Breeze. Christine Keeler and Mandy Rice-Davis escaped to there at the height of the Profumo affair. They could be seen sunning themselves on the roof of the pub from the signal box, as a teenager at the time I took a particular interest!

 

[HLE]

Reedham Ferry used to be very good, but my experience of the place is around 20 years ago and a lot can change in that time.

The Ship used to be owned by a Big Band Leader, I think it was Alan Breeze. Christine Keeler and Mandy Rice-Davis escaped to there at the height of the Profumo affair. They could be seen sunning themselves on the roof of the pub from the signal box, as a teenager at the time I took a particular interest!

Used to go for lunch at the ferryman almost every time I visited Reedham while in Norfolk. Switched to the ship about 3 years ago. Food is better and so is the beer.

Admittedly I haven't been in 2016 yet.

 

[berneyarms]

Reedham Ferry used to be very good, but my experience of the place is around 20 years ago and a lot can change in that time.

The Ship used to be owned by a Big Band Leader, I think it was Alan Breeze. Christine Keeler and Mandy Rice-Davis escaped to there at the height of the Profumo affair. They could be seen sunning themselves on the roof of the pub from the signal box, as a teenager at the time I took a particular interest!

Was the latter interest from a news perspective or was there something else piquing your attention?

 

[najaB]

Was the latter interest from a news perspective or was there something else piquing your attention?