Stranded person and dead milage running

[175mph]

I'm sure it's been discussed here before where someone attempts to board the last bus of the night, but then realises they've lost their wallet, but the driver let's them on anyway as they don't want that person to be stranded all night and anything bad happen.

But if you were a bus driver, what would you do in this situation?

You are doing the last run to Brigg from Scunthorpe (this is just an example as I'm from Scunthorpe), and when you go back to Scunthorpe, you put the destination sign to say "Sorry Not In Service". As the last passengers get off at Brigg, a very vulnerable elderly person attempts to board your bus, and you point out to them that you're going out of service, so no more passengers. He or she asks "But you're going back to Scunthorpe, right?" and you say yes, but not in service. Even if they seemed in a vulnerable situation, such as no money to get a taxi back and nobody they could call to bring them back to Scunthorpe, would you still stiffly enforce the rules, and still refuse to take them back, or would you risk it, if only so your conscience is clear?

If it was me, I'd risk it for them.

And has anybody here ever been in this situation themselves and was you able to convince the driver to help you home?

 

[Busaholic]

Yes, I have been in the situation and, yes, the driver did take me. What I would say in this hypothetical situation is that there is no good reason imo why the bus should not be in public service on the way back, even if only to the depot and not the town centre, and the bus company concerned should explain this to the council if the service has been tendered i.e. the council would not be charged for it.

 

[175mph]

Yes, I have been in the situation and, yes, the driver did take me. What I would say in this hypothetical situation is that there is no good reason imo why the bus should not be in public service on the way back, even if only to the depot and not the town centre, and the bus company concerned should explain this to the council if the service has been tendered i.e. the council would not be charged for it.

Well, in the day time, the route (4) run by this company: www.hornsbytravel.co.uk is commercially run, but the ones after 6 are council subsidised. When I asked why they couldn't run back to the depot in public service they said insurance costs prohibit it when there's likely to be nobody at all using it at such a time.

 

[ChathillMan]

Yes, I have been in the situation and, yes, the driver did take me. What I would say in this hypothetical situation is that there is no good reason imo why the bus should not be in public service on the way back, even if only to the depot and not the town centre, and the bus company concerned should explain this to the council if the service has been tendered i.e. the council would not be charged for it.

What if the bus operator makes some bus working changes and the bus goes dead to an outstation in the middle of nowhere instead of back to main town?

 

[6Gman]

I'm sure it's been discussed here before where someone attempts to board the last bus of the night, but then realises they've lost their wallet, but the driver let's them on anyway as they don't want that person to be stranded all night and anything bad happen.

But if you were a bus driver, what would you do in this situation?

You are doing the last run to Brigg from Scunthorpe (this is just an example as I'm from Scunthorpe), and when you go back to Scunthorpe, you put the destination sign to say "Sorry Not In Service". As the last passengers get off at Brigg, a very vulnerable elderly person attempts to board your bus, and you point out to them that you're going out of service, so no more passengers. He or she asks "But you're going back to Scunthorpe, right?" and you say yes, but not in service. Even if they seemed in a vulnerable situation, such as no money to get a taxi back and nobody they could call to bring them back to Scunthorpe, would you still stiffly enforce the rules, and still refuse to take them back, or would you risk it, if only so your conscience is clear?

If it was me, I'd risk it for them.

And has anybody here ever been in this situation themselves and was you able to convince the driver to help you home?

What would be the insurance position carrying a passenger on a "not in service" journey?

If the person is genuinely vulnerable how far does any duty of care extend?

 

[Busaholic]

Well, in the day time, the route (4) run by this company: www.hornsbytravel.co.uk is commercially run, but the ones after 6 are council subsidised. When I asked why they couldn't run back to the depot in public service they said insurance costs prohibit it when there's likely to be nobody at all using it at such a time.

If they'd said 'we won't do it because (a) we don't have to and (b) the council won't pay us any extra' then I'd have believed them. The only extra cost I suspect would be in the pay of the driver as a bus in service has to be allowed more time than a bus out of service; insurance is a red herring.

 

[175mph]

If they'd said 'we won't do it because (a) we don't have to and (b) the council won't pay us any extra' then I'd have believed them. The only extra cost I suspect would be in the pay of the driver as a bus in service has to be allowed more time than a bus out of service; insurance is a red herring.

So you'd say the insurance thing is largely just a quick fire excuse?

 

[richw]

So you'd say the insurance thing is largely just a quick fire excuse?

Definitely. The bus will be insured if it’s driving on the road on an annual policy, and public liability surely would be an annual thing as well.
The more likely issue is the traffic commissioner and route registration. I helped a friends operation over the summer and his registration allowed the registered times, plus x number of extra services, which covered running late services for one off events. His registration only permitted x number of extra public services per month.
If there is no provision for extra services in their route application it contravenes rules to run back in service.

I’ve known a driver take the duty of care to give an elderly person who missed the last service bus, a ride as far as the depot and then with a colleague present have driven the elderly person home in a car.

 

[RJ]

I'm sure it's been discussed here before where someone attempts to board the last bus of the night, but then realises they've lost their wallet, but the driver let's them on anyway as they don't want that person to be stranded all night and anything bad happen.

But if you were a bus driver, what would you do in this situation?

.....


If it was me, I'd risk it for them.

And has anybody here ever been in this situation themselves and was you able to convince the driver to help you home?

Whatever the company wants. I have bills to pay and my priority is to protect my ability to do that.

When I was a student in Loughborough, I applied for a bus driving job with Kinchbus, a local commercial bus operator. The interviewer quizzed me about what I'd do in several scenarios where a passenger couldn't or wouldn't pay, including drunks, rude people and repeat offenders. Kinchbus' stance was that everyone and anyone who wants to be let on for free should be carried, as anyone can be considered vulnerable and a reputation for good customer service is paramount. I didn't get the job for failing to clock that fare payment was optional and being "too London" with regards to seeking assistance help to get rid of abusive passengers and fare evaders. From that point on, I learned you can't go wrong in an interview by simply stating you'd follow the company's established policies.

Back in London, I do give out of service lifts to uniformed bus staff whose faces I know. Giving unauthorised lifts to members of the public is very risky. Some people may become distressed, demand you drop them somewhere away from where you originally agreed or even put in spurious claims against the driver - many have found that out the hard way in the past. It's one risk that isn't worth taking without an explicit indemnity from management. I usually just say no or offer help with local buses or finding them the number of a taxicab office.

 

[CatfordCat]

I find the insurance angle a bit hard to swallow about not registering garage journeys in service.

Yes, an operator's insurance would to some extent be proportionate to the number of miles operated, but i can't see that much difference with one more journey a day.

Some operators tend to register their dead workings (even at either end of a council contracted service) on the basis that they need to run anyway and they may as well be open to occasionally getting a few fares. If you include them as part of the same registration when you start the service, there's no additional service registration cost, and at one time you used to get fuel duty rebate on 'service' journeys but not garage journeys run 'not in service' (although i'm a bit out of date on BSOG or whatever it's called this week.)

Although the added time / mileage involved in running in service / running to or from a bus station terminus rather than going straight to / from depot has got to be paid for, and it may not be considered worth it for the sake of a fare paid once every few weeks. And the time might just push the driver's duty over a 'drivers hours' limit.

In London of course it's different, as TFL don't want odd 'when working' journeys happening that will change (and therefore generate complaints about their removal) if a route moves to a different garage either at re-tender or if the operator has a re-shuffle between garages.

If an operator (or driver acting on their own initiative) charged a fare to carry someone on a non-registered garage journey, that of course would be dodgy...

 

[Busaholic]

I find the insurance angle a bit hard to swallow about not registering garage journeys in service.

Yes, an operator's insurance would to some extent be proportionate to the number of miles operated, but i can't see that much difference with one more journey a day.

Some operators tend to register their dead workings (even at either end of a council contracted service) on the basis that they need to run anyway and they may as well be open to occasionally getting a few fares. If you include them as part of the same registration when you start the service, there's no additional service registration cost, and at one time you used to get fuel duty rebate on 'service' journeys but not garage journeys run 'not in service' (although i'm a bit out of date on BSOG or whatever it's called this week.)

Although the added time / mileage involved in running in service / running to or from a bus station terminus rather than going straight to / from depot has got to be paid for, and it may not be considered worth it for the sake of a fare paid once every few weeks. And the time might just push the driver's duty over a 'drivers hours' limit.

In London of course it's different, as TFL don't want odd 'when working' journeys happening that will change (and therefore generate complaints about their removal) if a route moves to a different garage either at re-tender or if the operator has a re-shuffle between garages.

If an operator (or driver acting on their own initiative) charged a fare to carry someone on a non-registered garage journey, that of course would be dodgy...

One of the (unintended, I'm sure) consequences of the move to privatisation on London buses has been the removal of some wonderful garage workings in service, many of very longstanding and of some use to the general public, or the proportion of it that were aware of them. Some appeared on timetables, others didn't, and one of the last of which I'm aware was the comparatively recent one when London Northern was running RMs on the 139 out of Holloway and you could travel beyond Golders Green Station to Archway on it at a time (iirc) when the 210 was still single deck and no double deckers had ever operated via Spaniards' Corner on Hampstead Heath : some years prior to that the 13 had been extended 'live' from Golders Green to Muswell Hill Garage when that shed briefly operated a few buses on it.

 

[SUB62]

If running back dead you'e not insured for passengers,so if anything goes wrong you're to blame. if vulnerable person involved weigh up the odds. In my experience too many tryers on, but obviously if vulnerable keep you're mouth shut and I'll drop you off.If last bus blobbed get a taxi ask for a receipt and bill the company.

 

[Busaholic]

If running back dead you'e not insured for passengers,so if anything goes wrong you're to blame. if vulnerable person involved weigh up the odds. In my experience too many tryers on, but obviously if vulnerable keep you're mouth shut and I'll drop you off.If last bus blobbed get a taxi ask for a receipt and bill the company.

That sounds a proportionate response to me - we all have to weigh things up and make decisions based partly on our own experience of life. Being born not long after WW11 I was always taught the 'only obeying orders' response was not good enough. Don't disobey rules for the sake of it, but 'rules were made to be broken'.

 

[freetoview33]

If running back dead you'e not insured for passengers,so if anything goes wrong you're to blame. if vulnerable person involved weigh up the odds. In my experience too many tryers on, but obviously if vulnerable keep you're mouth shut and I'll drop you off.If last bus blobbed get a taxi ask for a receipt and bill the company.

On this topic, how long would you wait as a passenger before deciding that the last bus was not going to show?

 

[6Gman]

If running back dead you'e not insured for passengers,so if anything goes wrong you're to blame. if vulnerable person involved weigh up the odds. In my experience too many tryers on, but obviously if vulnerable keep you're mouth shut and I'll drop you off.If last bus blobbed get a taxi ask for a receipt and bill the company.

That seems to confirm my feeling that insurance issues are not a red herring.

 

[overthewater]

The rules are pretty clear on vulnerable passengers... You can even take there name and address and would over ride the insurance thing.

 

[daodao]

Nearly 30 years ago, I was once helped out by a Cardiff bus driver by being permitted to travel on a "out of service" bus.

The last service 36 bus from Tredegar to Cardiff (formerly a joint route with Cardiff Bus as one of the operators) had failed to turn up at Caerphilly and I asked the driver of the last Cardiff to Caerphilly 36 bus, which was now out of service, to allow me to travel back to Cardiff on his journey back to depot. He ascertained by radio that the other bus had broken down north of Caerphilly, and after I showed him my return ticket, kindly allowed me to travel on the bus on his trip back to Cardiff. He dropped me off on Manor Way, which was on his direct route back to the depot, and luckily very close to where I then lived.

 

[Stan Drews]

That seems to confirm my feeling that insurance issues are not a red herring.

This 'insurance' issue is quite definitely a red herring. A bus is either insured or it is not. Carrying fare paying passengers on an unregistered journey would potential create an issue with completely separate legislation regarding the operation of bus services etc, but nothing to do with insurance.

One of the many urban myths surrounding the operation of bus services, just like carrying standing passengers on a motorway!

 

[6Gman]

This 'insurance' issue is quite definitely a red herring. A bus is either insured or it is not. Carrying fare paying passengers on an unregistered journey would potential create an issue with completely separate legislation regarding the operation of bus services etc, but nothing to do with insurance.

One of the many urban myths surrounding the operation of bus services, just like carrying standing passengers on a motorway!

You work the last service out of town, drop off your last passengers at the outer terminus, turn the blind to Out Of Service and prepare to run empty to depot. At the last minute somebody taps on the door and asks for a lift back into town. You let them on.

On the way you are involved in a Road Traffic Accident and your "passenger" is badly injured. Do you think your insurer would act on your behalf in meeting any claim? I think not. The bus may be insured but I'd question whether your passenger liability insurance would apply.

 

[overthewater]

You work the last service out of town, drop off your last passengers at the outer terminus, turn the blind to Out Of Service and prepare to run empty to depot. At the last minute somebody taps on the door and asks for a lift back into town. You let them on.

On the way you are involved in a Road Traffic Accident and your "passenger" is badly injured. Do you think your insurer would act on your behalf in meeting any claim? I think not. The bus may be insured but I'd question whether your passenger liability insurance would apply.

IF it's clearly a vulnerable passengers then yes....

 

[Stan Drews]

You work the last service out of town, drop off your last passengers at the outer terminus, turn the blind to Out Of Service and prepare to run empty to depot. At the last minute somebody taps on the door and asks for a lift back into town. You let them on.

On the way you are involved in a Road Traffic Accident and your "passenger" is badly injured. Do you think your insurer would act on your behalf in meeting any claim? I think not. The bus may be insured but I'd question whether your passenger liability insurance would apply.

Of course, I'd expect the Motor Insurance and PUBLIC liability insurance to be applicable to any injuries/damage resulting from an accident involving the bus.

 

[6Gman]

Of course, I'd expect the Motor Insurance and PUBLIC liability insurance to be applicable to any injuries/damage resulting from an accident involving the bus.

I have to manage insurance cover for an organisation (non-transport) and my experience is that insurers, quite rightly, want to minimise their risk. I would assume - perhaps incorrectly - that insurance cover for bus operators would include:
1. The vehicle against loss, theft, damage etc
2. The driver (and other staff) i.e. employer liability
3. Public liability i.e. loss or injury to members of the public going about their ordinary business
4. Passenger liability i.e. loss or injury involving passengers.

I just feel that in the scenario that I set out, carrying a member of the public as a "favour", the insurer could - and probably would - argue that none of these categories would apply.

 

[Stan Drews]

During my many years in the bus industry, I've never come across Passenger Liability Insurance, just Motor Insurance and the Public and Employee Liability Insurance. If a bus is involved in a Road Traffic Accident the relevant insurance would kick in regardless of whether the bus was empty/full, in/out of service, on/off route. This idea that a passenger on a bus would not be covered by insurance if it was out of service is just nonsense. You'd effectively be saying that your Public Liability Insurance only covered some members of the public, when it clearly covers everyone regardless of how/where you may injure them.
Believe it or not, you also have a liability to a thief that breaks into your depot!

 

[jon0844]

During my many years in the bus industry, I've never come across Passenger Liability Insurance, just Motor Insurance and the Public and Employee Liability Insurance. If a bus is involved in a Road Traffic Accident the relevant insurance would kick in regardless of whether the bus was empty/full, in/out of service, on/off route. This idea that a passenger on a bus would not be covered by insurance if it was out of service is just nonsense. You'd effectively be saying that your Public Liability Insurance only covered some members of the public, when it clearly covers everyone regardless of how/where you may injure them.
Believe it or not, you also have a liability to a thief that breaks into your depot!

I expect the insurance WOULD cover a member of the public on a bus that was involved in an accident when out of service and where the passenger didn't even pay. Why? Because the driver allowed them travel and so it's not the fault of the member of the public. I doubt any insurer would dare not pay on that basis.

BUT I can also imagine a whole world of pain for the employer and driver, and it being something the driver may wish s/he hadn't done.

 

[Stan Drews]

I expect the insurance WOULD cover a member of the public on a bus that was involved in an accident when out of service and where the passenger didn't even pay. Why? Because the driver allowed them travel and so it's not the fault of the member of the public. I doubt any insurer would dare not pay on that basis.

BUT I can also imagine a whole world of pain for the employer and driver, and it being something the driver may wish s/he hadn't done.

Exactly, and I think this is where people get confused. It may well be against company regulations/guidance, and could well result in serious disciplinary action, however that is entirely separate to the question of insurance.

 

[Martin2012]

Had a situation last year when I was waiting to catch the last bus back from somewhere and it failed to show up (it turned out it had broken down) .

The company's office had closed for the day and a driver doing a journey the other day was totally unsympathetic and unwilling to help.

 

[philthetube]

I am not sure if an insurance company could specify that passengers were only covered on service journeys, I suspect not as I think passenger liability for all seats in mandatory,

The argument about insurance costs increasing because of a little extra mileage in service is bull.

 

[175mph]

Had a situation last year when I was waiting to catch the last bus back from somewhere and it failed to show up (it turned out it had broken down) .

The company's office had closed for the day and a driver doing a journey the other day was totally unsympathetic and unwilling to help.

Was it a "So?! Not my problem!" styled response?

 

[BestWestern]

Had a situation last year when I was waiting to catch the last bus back from somewhere and it failed to show up (it turned out it had broken down) .

The company's office had closed for the day and a driver doing a journey the other day was totally unsympathetic and unwilling to help.

Should that have said "a driver doing a journey the other way..."?

If so, what might you have expected them to do? You say the company had effectively shut down for the night, and there is no requirement to provide any alternative anyhow. It's unlikely a solitary driver would have been able to do a great deal to assist, sadly.

 

[overthewater]

Should that have said "a driver doing a journey the other way..."?

If so, what might you have expected them to do? You say the company had effectively shut down for the night, and there is no requirement to provide any alternative anyhow. It's unlikely a solitary driver would have been able to do a great deal to assist, sadly.

Thats a crap company then isn't. Surly the traffic office in the depot would still be open. If its a council route phone the council...