Strathclyde Manning Agreement

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mbreckers

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Hi folks,

Anyone know what the current state of the Strathclyde Manning Agreement is? My understanding is that there basically must be a TE on a DOO service or it must be cancelled.

I regularly see evening services with no TE on them, and wondering whats happening
 
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Starmill

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They definitely don't need to be cancelled if there is no ticket examiner, as you have spotted. However, one should be provided on all services. I understand some sort of penalty regime applies if they are not.
 

mbreckers

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They definitely don't need to be cancelled if there is no ticket examiner, as you have spotted. However, one should be provided on all services. I understand some sort of penalty regime applies if they are not.

Yes, I have some (read a lot) of experience with no Ticket Examiners on DOO services.

As a companion of a permanent wheelchair user, what is the proper course of action for alighting a train with no TE on board and unmanned stations, or stations where staff are not available at the time?
 

Starmill

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mbreckers

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www.scotrail.co.uk/sites/default/fi...e_-_helping_older_and_disabled_passengers.pdf

Take a look at 'Assistence for Passengers' on p11 and the station index at the end.

I have personally done the bookings days in advance and staff claim they dont get them or somebody didnt phone somebody. That doesnt really help when my friend is stuck on a train because nobody turns up at a station with a ramp, other passengers moaning because the train is delayed.

Just because the Disabled Persons Protection Policy says they will do something, doesnt mean it happens in real life
 

Haig paxton

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I have personally done the bookings days in advance and staff claim they dont get them or somebody didnt phone somebody. That doesnt really help when my friend is stuck on a train because nobody turns up at a station with a ramp, other passengers moaning because the train is delayed.

Just because the Disabled Persons Protection Policy says they will do something, doesnt mean it happens in real life

Drivers are not trained nor required to use the yellow ramps at any time. So if you are in this this situation you should be conveyed to the next staffed station and taxied back to your destination. It's stupid, costly and inconvenient but that's the policy. Drivers must not leave the cab and have been instructed by ASLEF to report any doo service that does not have a TE on board. Even with a TE, many of them seem to be very lazy, only patrolling their train once or twice in an hour's journey.
 

Class 170101

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Hi folks,

Anyone know what the current state of the Strathclyde Manning Agreement is? My understanding is that there basically must be a TE on a DOO service or it must be cancelled.

I regularly see evening services with no TE on them, and wondering whats happening

I don't think it has to be cancelled but Train Planning are required to diagram a driver and a TE. If the TE goes sick the train can still run.
 

mbreckers

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Drivers are not trained nor required to use the yellow ramps at any time. So if you are in this this situation you should be conveyed to the next staffed station and taxied back to your destination. It's stupid, costly and inconvenient but that's the policy. Drivers must not leave the cab and have been instructed by ASLEF to report any doo service that does not have a TE on board. Even with a TE, many of them seem to be very lazy, only patrolling their train once or twice in an hour's journey.

I do understand that the driver is not permitted to use the ramp, I do not have an issue with that at all. The incident I am talking about the driver did come down to see what the problem was, from how he spoke he believed that there was a TE on the train.

The issue(s) are:

  • The driver was under the impression there was a ticket examiner on the train
  • We were alighting at a staffed station (Motherwell)
  • According to Motherwell it was Glasgow's fault (it always is)
  • It was the computers fault
  • It was Network Rails fault
  • It was everybodys fault but Motherwell
  • There are no more staffed stations on that route in the evening
  • Assistance was booked more than 48 hours in advance

Although I must say that whenever I have travelled during the day there is always a TE on the services, and apart from one time, they are always pleasant and do offer and enquire about what assistance you may need on alighting.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I don't think it has to be cancelled but Train Planning are required to diagram a driver and a TE. If the TE goes sick the train can still run.

But what about services (I am referring Glasgow Central to Lanark services here) where the TE is only on as far as Motherwell with no replacement? I see this happen often during the evening
 

scotraildriver

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Loads of trains run every day without a TE. At the weekend they sometimes simply get off for their own safety. Who can blame them given the shocking behaviour of some passengers. This forms the basis of the current conductors dispute. There are not te's provided on the trains we have and no guarantee they will on new services.
 

68000

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I mainly travel during the day and have always seen a TE (on the short formed services, it is not always possible that they travel through the train but that is another matter).

I caught the last service from Exhibition Centre to Cambuslang after a recent concert at the Hydro and there was one on as well
 

Starmill

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As I understand it, if a company is found not to be following their DPPP, the potential consequences are quite severe.
 

Mojo

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When I worked at a major Network Rail managed station we would always phone up the destination station, even if assistance was prebooked, to advise the station staff of the location of the customer and type of assistance required. Sounds to me like that was the problem rather than the fact there was no onboard staff.
 

XC90

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If you get off the train at an unstaffed station, press the help point. If you dont get off the train the driver will help you some way or another. They are not permitted to travel out of service with passengers still onboard. You will not be left stranded. Of course, these are extreme circumstances.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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There are some on here who think that the Strathclyde model of DOO is an ideal way forward for all urban networks. Leaving aside the safety issues I have to say that my experiences of it are not favourable. A Strathclyde TE seems to be just as likely as a guard anywhere else to have little interest in actually patrolling their train (ie no less likely for there to be lazy so-and-sos amongst their ranks) in spite of having very little else to do and the only part of the national network where I have ever had a problem with an All Line Rover being recognised and accepted is on the Strathclyde DOO network. And my first such jaunt was in 1978! Of course this is all anecdotal and maybe I have simply been unlucky. But it also says to me that when you eventually replace Guards with somewhat lower paid Ticket Examiners that you are risking the commitment of on-board staff to customer service. Pay peanuts.....
 

route:oxford

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As I understand it, if a company is found not to be following their DPPP, the potential consequences are quite severe.

So is the correct situation to repeatedly pull the emergency handle and wait until British Transport Police arrive to mobilise the ramp?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Pay peanuts.....

Get Glaswegians?

Seriously though, doesn't Scotrail have an intensive "mystery shopper" and CCTV review programme?
 

overthewater

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I can deffo say I have been on SPT train with no ticket person. I had no ticket, since the ticket office and machines were out of action ( around 10am ) and no one appeared... I was the only one on the train passenger wise.

So free travel for me.
 

Robertj21a

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As I can't find a simple answer anywhere else.......... are the imminent Scotrail strikes due to an expansion of DOO in Scotland - if not, what's the reason ?
 

Observer

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As I can't find a simple answer anywhere else.......... are the imminent Scotrail strikes due to an expansion of DOO in Scotland - if not, what's the reason ?
No, that's exactly what you think. They want to remove conductor duties and replace them with Ticket Examiners when Class 385s are introduced as seen as the majority of the electric trains there.
 

455driver

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They definitely don't need to be cancelled if there is no ticket examiner, as you have spotted. However, one should be provided on all services. I understand some sort of penalty regime applies if they are not.

As long as the non-appearance of the TE is reported in the correct manner! ;)
 

455driver

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Seriously though, doesn't Scotrail have an intensive "mystery shopper" programme?

Yeah, do you think you will see any of them on the trains after 20:00? :lol:

As for CCTV, which station/train/time would you like, of course what you get could be something completely different! ;)
 

bramling

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Yeah, do you think you will see any of them on the trains after 20:00? :lol:

Lol when I read that!

If it's anything like where I am, the mystery shopper reports (in our case mainly for PAs) are basically Mon-Sat, let's just say "daytime" hours. Struggling to remember any reports coming in for outside these timings.
 

47271

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I have a genuine question regarding the consistency of the RMT's position on the extension of Scotrail DOO beyond Strathclyde routes. Airdrie-Bathgate saw the first appearance of DOO in Edinburgh in 2010, and this was partly the consequence of the route being an extension of an existing DOO service operating DOO stock. So how do the 380s work out to North Berwick and Dunbar? Do they have conductors or TEs?
 
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najaB

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So how do the 380s work out to North Berwick and Dunbar? Do they have conductors or TEs?
As I understand it, conductor as far as Glasgow Central, ticket examiner from Central to Ayr.
 
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47271

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Thanks for the clarification on 380s east of Edinburgh
 
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bb21

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I will just remind all forum members to remain on topic. The subject is very clearly stated in the first post. This is not a place for discussing the pros and cons of DOO. There is already an active thread for it so please do not drag other threads that way. We do not need multiple threads discussing the same thing.

I'm sorry I have had to take the axe to the majority of the thread, but this was getting ridiculous, just people repeating the same things already said elsewhere, and subsequently getting into the same arguments.
 

XDM

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The Strathclyde manning agreement has been extended to Waverley since electrification from Airdrie,Bathgate to the capital a few years ago. The units run DOO all the way. But Waverley on to North Berwick still needs a conductor currently.
 

najaB

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The Strathclyde manning agreement has been extended to Waverley since electrification from Airdrie,Bathgate to the capital a few years ago. The units run DOO all the way. But Waverley on to North Berwick still needs a conductor currently.
According to several sources, that is not the case. For example, Realtime Trains says they are DOO from Ayr to Glasgow only. Besides, I may be being thick here, but I don't think North Berwick trains run through Bathgate.
 

Altnabreac

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According to several sources, that is not the case. For example, Realtime Trains says they are DOO from Ayr to Glasgow only. Besides, I may be being thick here, but I don't think North Berwick trains run through Bathgate.

You're both right.
Airdrie / Bathgate to Waverley - No Guard.
Carstairs to Waverley - Guard
 

Shaw S Hunter

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To clarify for anyone who may be getting confused the SMA does indeed reach Edinburgh but only via Bathgate. The 380s used east of Edinburgh arrive on services from Glasgow, some of which start back from Ayr, via Carstairs, a route not covered by the SMA. Indeed before the roll-out of GSM-R only a sub-fleet of 380s (101-108 rings a bell) could operate such services; the 380s were built with a view to DOO so were fitted with the requisite CSR for this but only the aforementioned sub-fleet also had NRN allowing them to work away from the DOO area. Of course all mainline traction is now fitted with GSM-R so the need to separately diagram a sub-fleet of 380s should no longer exist, assuming all 380s have guard-operable door control panels.

A quick check of a rail atlas will allow anyone to confirm that the route from Ayr to Glasgow has no practical connection to allow through operation via Bathgate.
 
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