Strathspey Railway volunteers stage walk out.

[Blindtraveler]

I must stress that I have no experience of how this might work normally in the heritage rail sector but from the point of view of someone who used to work in the third sector and has then spent a large chunk of his life providing services on a subcontract basis to the third sector, this attitude of contracted for a certain number of hours but then expected to work additional hours by charitable or voluntary sector type organizations is not at all uncommon and I would personally say is to be expected in such circumstances

I'm not saying it's right though

 

[james_the_xv]

The problem seems to be that the business needs the right calibre of person, but cant afford it. That will not end well.

Exactly - pay (relative) peanuts, get (relative) monkeys etc. If they want competitive candidates on those terms, the baseline salary should be £60k at an absolute minimum. A good GM at that price should end up paying for themselves with improvements to the business.

I must stress that I have no experience of how this might work normally in the heritage rail sector but from the point of view of someone who used to work in the third sector and has then spent a large chunk of his life providing services on a subcontract basis to the third sector, this attitude of contracted for a certain number of hours but then expected to work additional hours by charitable or voluntary sector type organizations is not at all uncommon and I would personally say is to be expected in such circumstances

I don't disagree that it's part of the culture, I've seen it myself too. My point is that if you want to have those terms and ensure you get good candidates the baseline salary + benefits should be extremely competitive. They're not here.

 

[Blindtraveler]

And not in many other third sector paid grades either, but I agree for what this is it is poor

 

[Meerkat]

What are the local wage rates like though?
Unless they are just hoping to get someone in as a semi retirement (as in lower wages and responsibility , not necessarily in hours worked) who wants to work on a railway.

 

[mike57]

Unless they are just hoping to get someone in as a semi retirement (as in lower wages and responsibility , not necessarily in hours worked) who wants to work on a railway.

But looking at what has been reported it looks like a strong and experienced leader is needed, not a figurehead. It comes back to @james_the_xv comment in post #32.

Outside the railway sector, but a friend of a friend is the (paid) organiser of a group of volunteers for a national charity, and she described the task of getting anything done as being 'like herding cats'.

 

[Gloster]

I have no knowledge of this individual case, but do know one where the pay and conditions for another (non-railway) borderline charity job were consistently poor resulting in a fair turnover of managers. A friend who was peripherally involved was of the opinion that the trustees/directors wanted someone who would not stand up to them and would run the charity in the way that they wanted. (They probably believed that their way was best, but were not prepared to listen to others.)

 

[John Bishop]

I have no knowledge of this individual case, but do know one where the pay and conditions for another (non-railway) borderline charity job were consistently poor resulting in a fair turnover of managers. A friend who was peripherally involved was of the opinion that the trustees/directors wanted someone who would not stand up to them and would run the charity in the way that they wanted. (They probably believed that their way was best, but were not prepared to listen to others.)

Which is pretty much the reason for the mass walkout last year on this railway.

 

[D Williams]

It may be the case that the wages offered are what can be afforded. I would be more concerned with the "Candidates without any transport or heritage railway experience are encouraged to apply."

As for the working hours, when I was a manager for a small company in industry I had to work the hours required to keep it running , there wasn't any additional pay. The staff were on piecework ( anybody remember that?) If you take a heritage railway job with the "bell to bell" work attitude then you are in the wrong job.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Perhaps they’re after an ex TOC manager who’s took the money and run with time on their hands. Or perhaps an ambitious knowledgeable volunteer who does it for the love of railways (and moderate wage) rather than high wages.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

Perhaps they’re after an ex TOC manager who’s took the money and run with time on their hands

That has happened elsewhere. I believe some former professional railway people, on retirement will perhaps look at roles within the heritage movement (I know several such people myself), but when it comes to the 'Management' of heritage railways, I get the impression (never having been thus involved myself) that in today's world the increased red tape (in many cases necessary, but in others perhaps less so?) that is now part of the preserved railway scene, makes these railways virtually on a par with the big railway these people have just retired from.
Whilst this may on paper make such individuals ideal candidates in a sense, perhaps many of these people themselves, are looking to have some involvement in something they are familiar with, but not to the same (intense) degree, if you get my meaning, to do something similar, but at a slower pace? When it comes to paperwork, rules, procedures, etc, etc, the reality is that often for those managing same, the stresses in the heritage movement can be as onerous as they are on the main line railway, hence few people put themselves forward for such roles, perhaps? Just thinking aloud here!

 

[The_Van]

It's probably a reasonable salary for the Aviemore area but not really enough to make the job attractive to anyone having to relocate

 

[Meerkat]

Whilst this may on paper make such individuals ideal candidates in a sense, perhaps many of these people themselves, are looking to have some involvement in something they are familiar with, but not to the same (intense) degree,

It’s an alien concept to me but some people just can’t not work, and love being in charge (and not necessarily in an Arrogant way). This role would actually be less work, and less stress, than their prior career, and like a semi retirement

It's probably a reasonable salary for the Aviemore area but not really enough to make the job attractive to anyone having to relocate

A candidate might want to relocate to such an area and then this job might fit be the managerial role they want (but presumably aren’t that common in the area?).

 

[mjc]

If you take a heritage railway job with the "bell to bell" work attitude then you are in the wrong job.

Why? What’s wrong with expecting to be paid for the hours you work? I get that there will be times when one may be required to work longer or unsocial hours but why should that be unpaid overtime rather than paid, or future time off in lieu? Time for such heritage attitudes to be consigned to history where they belong.

 

[Killingworth]

Why? What’s wrong with expecting to be paid for the hours you work? I get that there will be times when one may be required to work longer or unsocial hours but why should that be unpaid overtime rather than paid, or future time off in lieu? Time for such heritage attitudes to be consigned to history where they belong.

I've worked at lowly unpaid levels for charities after early retirement and might have considered a more senior role. I've met a lot of similarly minded people. We enjoyed work. We've put enopugh aside to live reasonably well on a pension. We enjoy putting something back and the salary for a later life role is less important than doing a worthwhile job well.

Charities, which most heritage railways effectively are, need dedicated, hard working people who believe in the cause and are not primarily in it for the money, watching the clock. Obviously money stll helps.

At Aviemore keen walkers and skiers might find the job attractive.

 

[trebor79]

Why? What’s wrong with expecting to be paid for the hours you work? I get that there will be times when one may be required to work longer or unsocial hours but why should that be unpaid overtime rather than paid, or future time off in lieu? Time for such heritage attitudes to be consigned to history where they belong.

Actually that's quite standard in any professional position. All of my contracts of employment have had similar provisions.

 

[30907]

Actually that's quite standard in any professional position. All of my contracts of employment have had similar provisions.

A friend on BR had it explained to them on promotion from Supervisor D to MS-something: working overtime is now a privilege

 

[Llanigraham]

A friend on BR had it explained to them on promotion from Supervisor D to MS-something: working overtime is now a privilege

And why a few I know have never moved from being a MOM to a LOM in the current set NR world.

 

[Merle Haggard]

And why a few I know have never moved from being a MOM to a LOM in the current set NR world.

A note of caution; for the final salary scheme, pension is based only salary, not overtime. I know one or two supervisors (D or E) who've been disappointed .

 

[Wynd]

The position is full-time and salaried on a pay scale of £35,000 to £45,000 per annum inclusive of all overtime, depending on the candidate's experience & qualifications, but we are open to further discussions.

My emphasis. It appears that negotiation for the right person is on the table.

£35k is low, I doubt many who are not in the railway already would take that.
Someone mentioned £60k for a high calibre manager, which is the going rate, really.

Given that the railways is a not insiginificant land owner, and it is within prime tourist territory, someone with a basic knowledge of short term rentals would open up that additional revenue stream piece they mention.

 

[D Williams]

Why? What’s wrong with expecting to be paid for the hours you work? I get that there will be times when one may be required to work longer or unsocial hours but why should that be unpaid overtime rather than paid, or future time off in lieu? Time for such heritage attitudes to be consigned to history where they belong.

Because, as my boss used to say, "the ability to do the job in the time allocated demonstrates your effectiveness as a manager". If you "consign these attitudes to history."....don't be surprised if your favourite heritage railway becomes a cycle route. Heritage railways are not a profitable business. They only exist because grown men like playing trains.

 

[mjc]

Charities, which most heritage railways effectively are, need dedicated, hard working people who believe in the cause and are not primarily in it for the money, watching the clock.

Because, as my boss used to say, "the ability to do the job in the time allocated demonstrates your effectiveness as a manager".

What a great reaction to my comment, and really sad that people still support those outdated attitudes. If a railway just wants middle aged men to apply for the job they should just say so, rather than make the terms such that they’re the only people who can apply. It’s a poor situation if a business (charity or not) can’t survive without exploring its employees, it’s disingenuous, discriminatory and, arguably, illegal. If you want someone to work 60 hours a week then advertise for someone to do so, rather than pretend it’s something else; or split the job into two, possibly with part of it being done by a volunteer.

 

[1Q18]

Because, as my boss used to say, "the ability to do the job in the time allocated demonstrates your effectiveness as a manager". If you "consign these attitudes to history."....don't be surprised if your favourite heritage railway becomes a cycle route. Heritage railways are not a profitable business. They only exist because grown men like playing trains.

Surely that all depends how much ‘job’ your superiors decide to allocate you, they need to have some respect for the manager and their right to have a life outside of work. This advert would go in the ‘not with a barge pole’ category for me, crammed as it is with weasel words seemingly designed to entrap the applicant into being on call 24/7 for a wage that (combined with the responsibility it entails) really doesn’t justify that.

 

[robert thomas]

What a great reaction to my comment, and really sad that people still support those outdated attitudes. If a railway just wants middle aged men to apply for the job they should just say so, rather than make the terms such that they’re the only people who can apply. It’s a poor situation if a business (charity or not) can’t survive without exploring its employees, it’s disingenuous, discriminatory and, arguably, illegal. If you want someone to work 60 hours a week then advertise for someone to do so, rather than pretend it’s something else; or split the job into two, possibly with part of it being done by a volunteer.

Anyone who works in the legal, medical, or teaching professions has always been expected to work unpaid overtime

 

[topydre]

Anyone who works in the legal, medical, or teaching professions has always been expected to work unpaid overtime

Indeed. And it's worth noting that the latter 2 experience staff shortages and also high turnover (at least in the case of teaching).

 

[Jan Mayen]

Anyone who works in the legal, medical, or teaching professions has always been expected to work unpaid overtime

I was told, many years ago, of a joke in the City of London. New entrants to the financial sector were told their salary, then told the hours they were expected to work and divide one by the other to get the actual hourly rate.
They were then asked if they'd rather be cleaners on the basis the actual hourly rate would be higher!

 

[mjc]

Anyone who works in the legal, medical, or teaching professions has always been expected to work unpaid overtime

But they shouldn’t be, and good employers will be working to eliminate the need for unpaid overtime. There will always be sick people, but we shouldn’t expect doctors to stay at work until everyone is healed, there will always be more that a heritage railway manager could do, but again we shouldn’t expect them to work 100+ hours a week.

The need for unpaid overtime is a sign of poor management, and as previously commented is likely illegal (it causes issues with working time rules, discrimination and, at lower rates of pay, minimum wage).

 

[Ken X]

Makes me glad to be in engineering.

Yes, we had to work on occasionally and I had my share of phone calls at stupid o'clock requesting a site visit but the first thing the boss always did was ensure we got paid in proportion to the inconvenience and short notice of the call.
On one famous occasion we didn't get home for several weeks. Paid for my wedding that one did.

Working unpaid just didn't happen.

 

[trebor79]

The need for unpaid overtime is a sign of poor management, and as previously commented is likely illegal (it causes issues with working time rules, discrimination and, at lower rates of pay, minimum wage).

Total nonsense. Any operational business has things happen that need an immediate response, you can't just say "Oh, 5pm, it'll have to wait till tomorrow".
The working time thing is taken care of by signing a waiver.

 

[1Q18]

Total nonsense. Any operational business has things happen that need an immediate response, you can't just say "Oh, 5pm, it'll have to wait till tomorrow".
The working time thing is taken care of by signing a waiver.

Emergencies are one thing, expecting staff to sign up to regular, uncompensated overtime is another.

 

[mjc]

Total nonsense. Any operational business has things happen that need an immediate response, you can't just say "Oh, 5pm, it'll have to wait till tomorrow".The working time thing is taken care of by signing a waiver.

I don’t think it is nonsense. What about my child who needs to be collected from after school club by 5:30 when they close, or my elderly relative who needs their tea and medication at 5:30 before I go home and sort myself and family out? If it’s a real emergency the business should have contingency plans.

You’re also confusing the issue, this isn’t about working late occasionally (or even regularly) it’s about how that is handled. It should be paid as overtime or allowed as time off but the railway here expects it to be worked unpaid.