Student Essay - Who is against HS2?

Discussion in 'Future High Speed Rail' started by Windmill10, 15 Apr 2015.

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  1. Windmill10

    Windmill10 Member

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    Hi, I'm writing a brief essay with a section on campaigns by towns against HS2. I am hoping I can be directed to some juicy info on which towns are the most vociferous campaigners against the HS2.
    My course argues that campaigning brings a community together, building a greater sense of belonging to that place through the act of defending it.

    Many thanks for any info. :)
     
  2. MidnightFlyer

    MidnightFlyer Veteran Member

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    Not against per se, but it may be worth looking into what the various overlords of Stoke have to say on it. I had to write a report on HS2 a couple of months ago and certainly the council leader there was very vocal about how the line bypassing the city will impact them economically.
     
  3. NSEFAN

    NSEFAN Established Member

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    If you're looking for vocal campaigning against the project then the most vocal campaigners are probably in the Chilterns, around Wendover and Stoke Mandeville. This is a fairly rural and wealthy area so it probably meets your criteria of defending local interests. That said, Camden has been very concerned about the project so that's possibly a case study for a large urban area for you.
     
  4. Searle

    Searle Established Member

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    Yeah, go for literally anywhere in the Chilterns for extreme HS2 haters
     
  5. pablo

    pablo Member

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    Is that something of a pre-conceived notion? Since the railway will only affect peeps half-a-mile each side, I'd expect the more moderate to re-coil from the overly vociferous.
     
  6. Windmill10

    Windmill10 Member

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    Thank you all, I've found a few sites from those areas including images of community walks (aka protest) and meetings with 700 attendees!! (wow). It is a short essay unfortunately, but I have read lots on the other threads too. The campaign has attracted people of influence, power, wealth and talent - and such there is a powerful amount of legal contest as well as defense using environmental laws too.
     
  7. Emyr

    Emyr Member

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    but seldom relevance.
     
  8. Windmill10

    Windmill10 Member

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    Whilst seen as anti-modernist nimbys, the case for HS in the Uk is different from other countries as we are densely populated (part of the problem and part of the need for better links), so I've some sympathy for them. Interestingly UKIP and Greens both calling for voting support from the dissenters.
    Personally I rate the green spaces with high value - imo it makes Britain Great!!!
     
    Last edited: 15 Apr 2015
  9. MidnightFlyer

    MidnightFlyer Veteran Member

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    Good job there will still be several million acres of greenery remaining after HS2 then ;)
     
  10. Windmill10

    Windmill10 Member

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    Ha, yes. But from a local perspective of what is sacrificed for national not local benefit, the nearby woods/green space is valued.
     
  11. bavvo

    bavvo Member

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    Here's a breakdown of the HS2 opposition. Basically you can break it down into five, often contradictory, mutually loathing groups.

    There's the right wing petrolhead mob, who view all railways as bad for either being 'Socialist', as a form of collective transport for those too lazy or ****less to get a car, or too 'green' and part of the whole 'global warming myth' who are simply opposed to railways full stop, so naturally are against one being built by the government.

    Then there's the left wing mob, who think that it's a service for rich city fat cats only.

    Third is the hair shirt environmentalists, who think we not only shouldn't build a high speed rail line, but we should retreat to a rural pastoral lifestyle, and pretty much stop travelling anywhere that can't be reached by foot, bicycle or horse.

    Fourth, there's the rail traditionalists, who think that before we should even consider building new railway lines, we should first reopen all the closed rural routes we lost under Beeching, and also bring back semaphore signals, Mk1 carriages and the pick up goods trains.

    Then finally the full on Nimby brigade, who think that the building of a railway line will reduce the Chilterns to a devastated wasteland, populated only by wind and ghosts, and who's prophecies of doom have been so pervasive, that they have pretty much created the very housing blight that they were constantly moaning about on the Telegraphs letters pages.

    .... oh, and then there's mccoy, which makes six ;)

    Have fun!
     
  12. Ironside

    Ironside Member

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    A very good summary of those groups. In the petrolhead group I would add those who are running or representing firms in other transport modes such as the car and aeroplane industry and those competing for infrastructure investment such as those wanting increased funding for super fast broadband. Related and funded by these groups are the libertarians who want very small govenment and nothing that requires subsidy ie rail (e.g. Institute of economic affairs).
     
  13. nidave

    nidave Member

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  14. quantinghome

    quantinghome Member

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    Paul Bigland runs a (pro-HS2) blog documenting and countering the various claims of the anti-HS2 campaign. Clearly this reflects a pro-HS2 stance (a good thing IMO), however there is some interesting information about the state of the anti groups.

    Have you considered comparing the campaign with previous protests against transport projects - HS1, M25, M40, London Ringways? A bit of context is always useful, especially in these days of the social media echo chamber.
     
    Last edited: 16 Apr 2015
  15. Geezertronic

    Geezertronic Established Member

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    If you read some of Paul's reports you may find that attendance should be missing a zero and the actual attendance at such events is much lower than the reported attendance. There would appear to actually be considerably less anti support than is reported, just they kick up more of a fuss with inaccurate and emotive facts
     
  16. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    I always wonder in which newspaper the articles, based upon the information in these threads, will appear. This is another thread that smacks of a journo too lazy to do their own research
     
    Last edited: 17 Apr 2015
  17. Snapper

    Snapper Established Member

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    Quite. The numbers the anti's claim are always exagerrated.

    You may find this look at their national following on social media of interest;

    https://paulbigland.wordpress.com/2015/04/10/the-anti-hs2-mobs-campaign-continues-to-hit-the-rocks/
     
  18. scarf ace

    scarf ace Member

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    There is another group which is surely worth a mention. This group is enthusiastic in support of high speed rail but argues that HS2 is simply the wrong scheme, costing far too much and delivering far too little. For those not familiar with it, High Speed UK has produced an alternative that broadly matches the performance of HS2 in linking major cities but also provides connections to serve most of the other existing Intercity routes as well. HSUK proposes a new high speed line following the M1 corridor with dozens of junctions connecting to the existing network. There is a huge amount of information on their website http://www.highspeeduk.co.uk
     
  19. NotATrainspott

    NotATrainspott Established Member

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    Yes, the HSUK folk have some very interesting ideas about things.
     
  20. quantinghome

    quantinghome Member

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    True. Not sure I'm convinced by them though. The level of invective on the HSUK site against HS2 is quite strange given the similarities between the two, which IMO will not work in their favour. There is a tendency to gloss over the difficulties in their proposals as well. The dozens of connections with the existing network will make for a very complicated system with delays imported from the classic network, retaining New Street as the Birmingham station doesn't seem workable, and without OOC there is no simple connection to Heathrow, crossrail and the Thames valley. Many of the scheme's features rely on a vast upgrade to the existing network, which reminds me of the fable of the stone soup.

    Having said that, there are many good ideas in the HSUK proposals which I hope will be included in future high speed extensions, such as HS3 and northern extensions.
     
  21. Snapper

    Snapper Established Member

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    - except on thing. Cost.

    Remember the old adage, if you can't blind 'em with science, baffle them with bull***t...

    HSUK is neither costed or well planned. It's a table-top exercise that falls down when you start looking at the detail. It's no wonder it has never had any serious backers (and never will).
     
  22. scarf ace

    scarf ace Member

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    I agree that there are a lot of unanswered questions in HSUK, but given that it's the self-funded effort of two engineers that's not surprising.

    Personally I like the idea of HS lines serving existing stations rather than new build. The capacity issues etc can then be addressed holistically as separate projects rather than HS2 building what they need without much regard for the wider needs of the city. So if Birmingham needs a new station it's surely better to plan for the long term needs of the city's rail infrastructure as a whole even if it means the captive trains can't get there on day one.

    I hope that the new government will undertake an independent, unbiased critical review of HS2 (something similar to the London Airports Commission) using HSUK or something similar as a comparator. Obviously the comparator scheme(s) will need to be worked up to an appropriate level and fairly costed, and that will take some time. But at the end we would have either HS2 vindicated as the optimal scheme or a better scheme, perhaps an M1-aligned Reverse E layout or something else, bringing high speed rail to a wider swathe of the intercity network. I think it would be worth a delay of a year or so to have this assurance that we do have the best scheme.
     
  23. MarlowDonkey

    MarlowDonkey Member

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    A core reason for HS2 is sometimes stated to be a lack of capacity at the south end of the WCML. For a much simpler scheme than HS2, that could be tackled directly, although as only a 125 mph railway. So reinstate the Great Central line from Rugby to where historically it joined what is now the Chiltern route to Banbury. Quadrupling the Chiltern line most or all of the way from there to South Ruislip. Reinstate the line from South Ruislip to Old Oak Common and building a new interchange and terminus there. For Heathrow, use the existing Greenford to South Ealing line which also connects to the main line in the Reading direction.
     
  24. Ironside

    Ironside Member

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    Both HSUK and reopenning of the central line have been shown to impracticle and ineffective. If you search on this site you can find detailed explanations of why.
     
    Last edited: 18 Apr 2015
  25. scarf ace

    scarf ace Member

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    OK, I've searched the forum for HSUK and the "High Speed Two (HS2) discussion" is the only thread that I haven't seen before. I'll work through the 6648 replies sometime and see what I learn!
     
  26. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    The Northwich area is against it. Farmers and other residents in Lostock Gralam are objecting, while an anti-HS2 campaign has the backing of John Bishop who lives in Davenham.
     
  27. nidave

    nidave Member

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    If you serve existing stations then you loose any extra capacity you gain as there is only a finite amount of paths available into the station.

    Building a new station does not mean the current infrastructure is going to disappear, you get the benefits of having extra capacity on both the old lines and the new lines.
     
  28. scarf ace

    scarf ace Member

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    Yes, but by building HS2-only stations separated from the existing infrastructure, you're missing an opportunity to integrate the systems and to address deficiencies in the current infrastructure. Of course this would be a more expensive approach than an HS2-only station, which is one reason why I feel in many cases there is merit in treating the building of new lines and the provision or upgrading of stations as separate projects.
     
  29. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    Once you build HS2, HS3 and any other new lines (not necessarily high speed, but to add more capacity) then you can begin to upgrade older 'legacy' routes.

    HS2 isn't going to see the closure of the WCML, MML or ECML. It will give them more paths for local/slower services, benefitting people at the stations that aren't directly connected to the high-speed lines (but will of course connect at other points).

    One key thing is that HS2 is as much about capacity, or more so, than speed. In fact, had it never been called 'High Speed' then perhaps it wouldn't have had the problems it faces now. Too many people thinking it's just to save a few minutes to Birmingham, when it actually allows the movement of a s*** load of people to other big cities, relieving pressure from other lines and allowing more passenger trains and freight.
     
  30. Jonny

    Jonny Established Member

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    Quite; the trouble with the "Y" structure is that it isn't going to bring much journey time benefit north of the M62 belt on the ECCML and if the capacity is used up more quickly than planned, it may need to be enough. A better route IMO would be out of London Liverpool Street, intersect with HS1 near Stratford for Kent domestic services (the City of London would be a more popular terminus), then head towards Cambridge, over or near the Wash and then past Lincoln, roughly following up the ECML route as it approaches the North-East with a mix of new alignments and upgrades for 140mph (or higher) running. All of this would be in addition to HS2.

    The real fantasy is how I would fund such schemes - by reducing the foreign aid budget.
     
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