I raise a wry smile at the fact the MP who asked the question (John Lamont) used to be very sceptical at the original Borders Rail project and is now all for pushing the line to Carlisle.
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Study to consider Borders Railway extension
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adrock1976
Established Member
I raise a wry smile at the fact the MP who asked the question (John Lamont) used to be very sceptical at the original Borders Rail project and is now all for pushing the line to Carlisle.
Being as there may be the possibility of a General Election after Brexit, the cynic in me is thinking that John Lamont is attempting to canvass votes.
47271
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To be fair to Lamont's position on an extension, this is the story from 2010 - he was arguing that it should be extended beyond Galashiels.
He was also arguing against the railway between Edinburgh and Tweedbank at the same time however, and quite how he could have one without the other is puzzling.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10572802
He was also arguing against the railway between Edinburgh and Tweedbank at the same time however, and quite how he could have one without the other is puzzling.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10572802
47271
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...and here's a bit of good news for the third anniversary of the existing line today - passenger numbers up again.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-45432576
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-45432576
Journeyman
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Indeed that is good news - I'm very glad it's been a success. I think there's a good case for going to Hawick. Doing that also takes in Melrose, a very popular tourist destination, where the station (half of it, at least) is still largely intact.
However...the area between Hawick and Carlisle is about as densely-populated as the surface of the moon, and I'm really not convinced there's any justification for attempting to reinstate it, even as a diversionary route.
I tend to agree, but these things are staged anyway so we can always let the market tell us. Hawick via Melrose would be admirable in itself, with a few passing points and the odd bit of double track just in case. If there was demand, I’m sure freight would feature heavily, so bearing W clearance and space for passing long trains in mind could help a future case.
Especially if the HS2 Scotland route happens one day, but as an upgrade, and there are closures. Equally on the east if they sort some kinks, Dunbar,passing points for more locals... just good resilience.
route:oxford
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Far better a circular route from Melrose - Jedburgh - Hawick - Melrose. Linking Jed & Hawick for the first time.
No reversals!
There was a short piece about how the Borders Railway has helped local businesses and campaigning to extend the line to Hawick and onwards, on Landward (A Scottish version of Country File):
The piece starts at just after 16m30s. If you like the countryside, then I'd recommend just watching the programme from the start.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bngd79/landward-20182019-episode-17#
The piece starts at just after 16m30s. If you like the countryside, then I'd recommend just watching the programme from the start.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bngd79/landward-20182019-episode-17#
Photohunter71
Member
Well, if it were to come to fruition, then surely it would have to be redoubled the entire route? It would have made more sense to have put down double track for the route to Tweedbank in the first instance.
But then the cost would have been too high even for the fudged Cost Benefit Analysis so nothing would have been built.
Altnabreac
Established Member
Even if the line is extended to Hawick it seems unlikely there would be a requirement for any more than 2tph south of Gorebridge, so there is no more requirement for double track than there is at the moment.
Any doubling would likely be in the Newcraighall - Portobello section to improve reliability and possibly support a 2tph Midlothian service allowing the Borders services to become semi fasts.
matacaster
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Drax might be interested after the trees have been pelletised?
So no chance and little chance.
I was in this camp with regard to taking the line over to Berwick, but when you start to look at the amount of people that travel from Berwick to Kelso, Newton St Boswell's ( council offices) and to Melrose ( BGH ) if the stations were at the correct locations it may have legs.
The question would be though, do you relocate Berwick Railway Station toward the former Tweedmouth site as the parking at the current site is always over full during the week.
Possibly, although it would not solve the parking issues, which would need to be done.
And also a north facing junction means trains would need to reverse at Berwick to go to Newcastle, I doubt anyone would catch a train at Kelso say, via Berwick to go to Edinburgh.
Surely going to Hawick should be an option getting looked at as well?
Macwomble
Member
Personally, I think it's the ONLY option that should be being looked at.
It would be deeply perverse to extend the line and miss the largest population centre, so Hawick must be in the plan. But I would've thought the broader questions with Hawick are about where the station should go, and whether an extension to Carlisle was ever going to be feasible (I don't see the business case, but that doesn't mean it won't happen).
Any study should, for completeness and to demonstrate to stakeholders that it was taken seriously, should consider reinstatement of Gala-Kelso-Tweedmouth. I guess it would be possible to run semi-fast from Edinburgh split a pair of units at St Boswells for Hawick and Tweedmouth if there were demand. But short of a *lot* of houses for Edinburgh commuting, Hawick looks like the only game in town. After all, @Altnabreac 's laws of reopenings still apply...
Any study should, for completeness and to demonstrate to stakeholders that it was taken seriously, should consider reinstatement of Gala-Kelso-Tweedmouth. I guess it would be possible to run semi-fast from Edinburgh split a pair of units at St Boswells for Hawick and Tweedmouth if there were demand. But short of a *lot* of houses for Edinburgh commuting, Hawick looks like the only game in town. After all, @Altnabreac 's laws of reopenings still apply...
70014IronDuke
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An excellent example of modern, in-depth TV reporting.
Reporter on the ground, talking to both experts and local people – note the textbook-perfect arm movement on the platform keeping the average viewer (attention-span max 10 seconds) interested – as he step-by-step builds his case.
In particular, he carefully compares new, vastly expensive projects like Crossrail and HS2 with the Borders proposal, revealing fascinating details like populations served by each of the new lines and the numbers of trains envisaged per hour. Plus, of course, the passenger numbers expected per £ invested over the first 10 years after the start of operations.
It's a pity he didn't have time to show shots of Edinburgh – Carstairs – Carlisle trains habitually rammed with standing passengers and compare those with luxurious, half-empty Shenfield – Liverpool Street and Paddington-Reading services we know so well, not to mention the pampered passengers on the Central Line in what locals laughingly call peak-time workings – THAT would have proved the case for the Borders' extension and made for a comprehensive, Pullitzer-prize winning report.
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HS2 £56billion for an estimated 109million passengers a year ie £511 per passenger for capacity used.
Cost for restoring the Waverley route all the way to Carlisle including the cost of the existing bit £1billion for an estimated 2million passengers a year (1.4M existing plus an extra 0.6M estimate) ie £500 per passenger capacity added.
In terms of the cost of adding extra useful capacity the two are not dissimilar. That’s not to say that the economic impact will be proportionally the same. Though if these figures are being used to justify it, it may suggest HS2 is an expensive option compares to others if it is similar to restoring this as some people see it no hope addition to the network.
Cost for restoring the Waverley route all the way to Carlisle including the cost of the existing bit £1billion for an estimated 2million passengers a year (1.4M existing plus an extra 0.6M estimate) ie £500 per passenger capacity added.
In terms of the cost of adding extra useful capacity the two are not dissimilar. That’s not to say that the economic impact will be proportionally the same. Though if these figures are being used to justify it, it may suggest HS2 is an expensive option compares to others if it is similar to restoring this as some people see it no hope addition to the network.
Is there any argument at all for going to Carlisle all the way? Are the citizens of Hawick and Galashiels itching to reach the North West by rail? It could be handy for diversions but there already are other ways to divert to Edinburgh from Carlisle anyway.
Surely they need direct trains to Manchester Airport!
But in seriousness, a good connection to trains south at Carlisle would no doubt be useful for the region - and also for inbound tourism. Locals' daily business might be to Edinburgh, but there will always be some demand to the NW and to London. Direct trains doubtful, but access to Carlisle would be good. It's got capacity, for a 'faded grandeur' station to play more of a role in the network!
There obviously is a demand for people to travel to and from the central Borders to the south a far as Carlisle and off course further south even with a change as Carlisle. The point is that there would not need to be that much demand for the figures to exceed the modest 0.6m increase figure that I used above to illustrate the point above. Off course the economic value of each trip through or within the Borders may be less than HS2 however it is perhaps not as ridiculous as some people might claim to compare the two or indeed any other proposed reopening schemes.
It may be hard for some people to believe but there are folk that live in the border and others from further afield who might want to visit the area, is it that unreasonable for them to expect a high quality public transport system to enable them to do so reasonable quickly and in comfort. The Borders Railway has been successful in attracting a wide variety of users including tourist. How much easier would it be for people to visit the region from the south if the railway was reinstated. It is all to easy for people to dismiss any form of development in Britain's Rural areas on the basis that the money would be better spent else where. Investing in the south east of England is not necessarily going to reduce congestion on our transport system if. like HS2, it just encourages people to commute further. There is something to be said for trying to encourage development away from highly congested areas to other part of the country, though the logic of this type of argument seems to be drowned out by market theorist who have little interest in dealing with long term problems.
It may be hard for some people to believe but there are folk that live in the border and others from further afield who might want to visit the area, is it that unreasonable for them to expect a high quality public transport system to enable them to do so reasonable quickly and in comfort. The Borders Railway has been successful in attracting a wide variety of users including tourist. How much easier would it be for people to visit the region from the south if the railway was reinstated. It is all to easy for people to dismiss any form of development in Britain's Rural areas on the basis that the money would be better spent else where. Investing in the south east of England is not necessarily going to reduce congestion on our transport system if. like HS2, it just encourages people to commute further. There is something to be said for trying to encourage development away from highly congested areas to other part of the country, though the logic of this type of argument seems to be drowned out by market theorist who have little interest in dealing with long term problems.
Altnabreac
Established Member
I'll post this again as I'm afraid Hawick - Carlisle is never going to generate 600,000 journeys a year.
3.4.20 Summary of Key Points – Traffic and Transport
Borders Rail has experienced significant growth in passenger numbers, and is primarily used by commuters
3.5.19 Travel-to-Work Patterns (2011 Census)
Travel-to-work patterns for Scottish Borders residents
Midlothian (1,100 people or 2%)
City of Edinburgh (4,100 people or 8%)
Less than 100 people travel to Carlisle for work.
So given the 5,200 regular total commuters (not just those by rail) generated something in the region of 850,000 journeys to Galshiels / Stow / Tweedbank that gives us a multiplier of 164.
Apply that same multiplier to the 40 people from the Borders who work in Carlisle and you're looking at around 7,000 journeys per year. Now in reality Carlisle - Hawick would probably get a bigger proportion of tourist and long distance travellers so the 7,000 is a little low but I suspect the usage would be a lot closer to 7,000 pa than it will to 600,000 pa.
To make a viable rail re-opening you need a strong commuter base first to make it work.
3.4.20 Summary of Key Points – Traffic and Transport
Borders Rail has experienced significant growth in passenger numbers, and is primarily used by commuters
3.5.19 Travel-to-Work Patterns (2011 Census)
Travel-to-work patterns for Scottish Borders residents
Midlothian (1,100 people or 2%)
City of Edinburgh (4,100 people or 8%)
Less than 100 people travel to Carlisle for work.
So given the 5,200 regular total commuters (not just those by rail) generated something in the region of 850,000 journeys to Galshiels / Stow / Tweedbank that gives us a multiplier of 164.
Apply that same multiplier to the 40 people from the Borders who work in Carlisle and you're looking at around 7,000 journeys per year. Now in reality Carlisle - Hawick would probably get a bigger proportion of tourist and long distance travellers so the 7,000 is a little low but I suspect the usage would be a lot closer to 7,000 pa than it will to 600,000 pa.
To make a viable rail re-opening you need a strong commuter base first to make it work.
I'm with Altanabreac: I'd love to see the whole of the Waverley re-open, and to be able to change at Riccarton Junction for Saughtree.... but as a business proposition commuting from the Borders to Carlisle is never going to do it. Would it have made a difference if the basic railway/long siding had gone into Kielder Forest a few years back? In economic terms it shouldn't have done (as such a line wouldn't have been 75mph+ to passenger terms), but emotionally and politically it could probably have made a difference.
And even stretching the point to maximise take up, you'd want to serve Langholm as one of the larger towns (of, er, 2300) en-route, which means either reinstating the branch, and having a time consuming double reversal, or a Esk Valley Base Tunnel to Newcastleton, which doesn't seem like the most likely prospect. (It's a bit hilly round there...)
So, a lovely idea, but if the line is extended to Hawick (and I think it should and suspect it will be), I'd be astonished if it headed south to Carlisle.
And even stretching the point to maximise take up, you'd want to serve Langholm as one of the larger towns (of, er, 2300) en-route, which means either reinstating the branch, and having a time consuming double reversal, or a Esk Valley Base Tunnel to Newcastleton, which doesn't seem like the most likely prospect. (It's a bit hilly round there...)
So, a lovely idea, but if the line is extended to Hawick (and I think it should and suspect it will be), I'd be astonished if it headed south to Carlisle.
I agree. Hawick could get the go ahead for political and socio economic reasons but I fail to see any reasonable justification being found to get it to Carlisle.
Perhaps it's not so much about the population, but if ' both schemes that have ' legs ' were done, coupled with where possible double track.
Ive seen the plans and fly through' s for the Peebles line .
Anyway that's going off topic only I mentioned it was because they would need double track as it joins the current Waverly line at ( one option near the viaduct over the A7 ). But with high speed rail in whatever format it's delivered , Eg sooner or later somone in westminster and holyrood would have the brains to upgrade the track and systems that prevented since 1991 ( when the 225 came in ) could run at 140mph , also if memory serves the HST exceeded that speed.
So if HS2 is built it makes no sense to have to slow express trains north of Crewe on the west side and Micklefield in the East . So the only way to really reliably increase speeds is to shift freight off of the Mainlines north of these places , in theory when the 160mph Javelins are cascaded you'd get a much faster service to Scotland.
The Carlisle To Hawick and Gala to Berwick making sure to have North and South Chords to prevent reversals , more double tracking on the current Waverly route .
I'm.no expert on this but look at Alloa that is not exactly a huge place , I'd bet it's smaller than Hawick yet not only did it get rebuilt but only a decade on , it's now Electrified with a possibility of extending passsanger services I take it to Dumfirmline ( sorry my geography is not too good due to the illness that effects my memory )
That line also carries a lot of frieght or did until the power station closed . However with a new train factory it will again .
So there must be some logic in taking slow moving freight trains from the Mainlines , freeing up paths on the west and East sides , but still allowing the goods to reach Edinburgh and Glasgow .
Somone mentioned Jedburgh is this west and north of Hawick ?.
Either way Carstairs for freight is a non starter as it's already heavily trafficked with local and Cross Country services .
And people can joke all they like about taking wood from keilder but that had to have had legs too as it was nearly done Way back in the 90's. I've lived around different parts of Scotland, Galloway ,Callander and Near Beauly . I can say that apart from.the congestion and atooning on the A7 for example caused by muliple logging trucks , and in Callander and on the A9 seeing horrific accidents involving these trucks often driven above their limits .
If the line was electrified as well that also improves the case .
I'm.not for one moment suggesting a rebuild just for Keilder that would be a bonus .
But during the war all these closed Beeching cuts allowed for traffic to keep going when main routes where hit.
So surley if we want the chance that lets face fact is not going to happen in anyone's lifetime is the provision of ' High speed services to Scotland '.
It's utter madness to arbitrarily stop the HS2 Scheme where they have .
I don't see 250mph being practical the country is not big enough . But 140-160 mph trains would really cut journey times.
Taking the freight must aid that aim .
Apologies for the epic post I'm not too good at putting my ideas down succinctly with my illness ( no sob story).
But while the Waverley route for passengers may not make sense beyond Hawick it must surely for taking slow frieght away . And while they are ordering new class 88 style bimodes for high speed freight it's only 125 mph.
The fact the UK has been stuck at that doped for 40 years , must make the Carlisle and Berwick links an attractive idea.
Ive seen the plans and fly through' s for the Peebles line .
Anyway that's going off topic only I mentioned it was because they would need double track as it joins the current Waverly line at ( one option near the viaduct over the A7 ). But with high speed rail in whatever format it's delivered , Eg sooner or later somone in westminster and holyrood would have the brains to upgrade the track and systems that prevented since 1991 ( when the 225 came in ) could run at 140mph , also if memory serves the HST exceeded that speed.
So if HS2 is built it makes no sense to have to slow express trains north of Crewe on the west side and Micklefield in the East . So the only way to really reliably increase speeds is to shift freight off of the Mainlines north of these places , in theory when the 160mph Javelins are cascaded you'd get a much faster service to Scotland.
The Carlisle To Hawick and Gala to Berwick making sure to have North and South Chords to prevent reversals , more double tracking on the current Waverly route .
I'm.no expert on this but look at Alloa that is not exactly a huge place , I'd bet it's smaller than Hawick yet not only did it get rebuilt but only a decade on , it's now Electrified with a possibility of extending passsanger services I take it to Dumfirmline ( sorry my geography is not too good due to the illness that effects my memory )
That line also carries a lot of frieght or did until the power station closed . However with a new train factory it will again .
So there must be some logic in taking slow moving freight trains from the Mainlines , freeing up paths on the west and East sides , but still allowing the goods to reach Edinburgh and Glasgow .
Somone mentioned Jedburgh is this west and north of Hawick ?.
Either way Carstairs for freight is a non starter as it's already heavily trafficked with local and Cross Country services .
And people can joke all they like about taking wood from keilder but that had to have had legs too as it was nearly done Way back in the 90's. I've lived around different parts of Scotland, Galloway ,Callander and Near Beauly . I can say that apart from.the congestion and atooning on the A7 for example caused by muliple logging trucks , and in Callander and on the A9 seeing horrific accidents involving these trucks often driven above their limits .
If the line was electrified as well that also improves the case .
I'm.not for one moment suggesting a rebuild just for Keilder that would be a bonus .
But during the war all these closed Beeching cuts allowed for traffic to keep going when main routes where hit.
So surley if we want the chance that lets face fact is not going to happen in anyone's lifetime is the provision of ' High speed services to Scotland '.
It's utter madness to arbitrarily stop the HS2 Scheme where they have .
I don't see 250mph being practical the country is not big enough . But 140-160 mph trains would really cut journey times.
Taking the freight must aid that aim .
Apologies for the epic post I'm not too good at putting my ideas down succinctly with my illness ( no sob story).
But while the Waverley route for passengers may not make sense beyond Hawick it must surely for taking slow frieght away . And while they are ordering new class 88 style bimodes for high speed freight it's only 125 mph.
The fact the UK has been stuck at that doped for 40 years , must make the Carlisle and Berwick links an attractive idea.
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