Successful appeal - random IRCAS admin fee?

[jensonatrain]

Hi all,

I successfully lodged an appeal against WM trains service (justice!), and as soon as the appeal was accepted, I paid the £3.10 I owed on the IRCAS website about 3 weeks ago. Thought the matter was closed, until today I received a letter claiming that although they had my appeal accepted, I'd not paid the new fee and now had to pay them a £35 admin fee. Surely a mistake, but I've just checked the webiste and lo and behold, a £35 administration fee is there... right under my timely payment. I've obviously sent an angry email to an automated mailbox about the matter, but I have an email proving the payment was taken, and it's even logged on their website. What are my grounds for just ignoring this now (until they come back to me I suppose)? Even if they did come back with some nonsense about how I do owe them an admin fee somehow, I don't want to waste any further breath or energy on them. The WM trains service have already had £20 off my poor younger sister as I was not willing to hand over a child's contact details for an appeal. Is there another body I could lodge a complaint with? Please tell me if I'm being a bit mental, but this seems like an absolute joke and I'm fuming

This is what I'm seeing on the IRCAS website under my penalty fare number:


�

To Pay:	£35.00
Date	Payment Type	Amount
02 August 2021	PENALTY AMOUNT	£20.00
18 August 2021	Credit - APPEAL CREDIT	-£16.90
18 August 2021	Card Payment (Web)	-£3.10
06 September 2021	Administration Due - Reminder	£35.00

Thanks guys, any advice is appreciated.

Jen

 

[bb21]

I can't see how, if it went to court, they will have a leg to stand on.

Most intriguing but I don't see why you need to do anything other than ignore them, for the time being.

Perhaps copy your angry email to their contact form as well, just to be safe. https://www.ircas.co.uk/Home/ContactUs

 

[jensonatrain]

That's the one I used, glad to see consensus on that being the correct next steps. I certainly don't want to waste 13p per minute waiting in a queue on the phone, so I'll see if they come back to me in the next few days. Thank you

 

[Kite159]

Very cheeky of them to add an admin charge for a successful appeal. Surely any successful appeal that fee should be passed back to the TOC who issued the penalty fare in the first place.

Otherwise it undermines the appeal system. Pay the TOC £20 for a penalty fare even if issued incorrectly or appeal it and get it overturned only to be landed with a £35 "admin" charge.

 

[Watershed]

Hi all,

I successfully lodged an appeal against WM trains service (justice!), and as soon as the appeal was accepted, I paid the £3.10 I owed on the IRCAS website about 3 weeks ago. Thought the matter was closed, until today I received a letter claiming that although they had my appeal accepted, I'd not paid the new fee and now had to pay them a £35 admin fee. Surely a mistake, but I've just checked the webiste and lo and behold, a £35 administration fee is there... right under my timely payment. I've obviously sent an angry email to an automated mailbox about the matter, but I have an email proving the payment was taken, and it's even logged on their website. What are my grounds for just ignoring this now (until they come back to me I suppose)? Even if they did come back with some nonsense about how I do owe them an admin fee somehow, I don't want to waste any further breath or energy on them. The WM trains service have already had £20 off my poor younger sister as I was not willing to hand over a child's contact details for an appeal. Is there another body I could lodge a complaint with? Please tell me if I'm being a bit mental, but this seems like an absolute joke and I'm fuming

This is what I'm seeing on the IRCAS website under my penalty fare number:


�

Date	Payment Type	Amount
To Pay:	£35.00
02 August 2021	PENALTY AMOUNT	£20.00
18 August 2021	Credit - APPEAL CREDIT	-£16.90
18 August 2021	Card Payment (Web)	-£3.10
06 September 2021	Administration Due - Reminder	£35.00

Thanks guys, any advice is appreciated.

Jen

Neither the NRCoT nor the Penalty Fares Regulations contain any provision for such admin fees. Accordingly, there is no contractual or other legal basis on which to recover them. You might well describe them as "made up"!

Of course, in some cases it might still be advantageous to pay up - for example, if the alternative is being prosecuted. But if you have successfully appealed your Penalty Fare/Unpaid Fares Notice, that is no longer a possibility. Therefore you would be quite entitled to ignore IRCAS' correspondence about the fee. But it's not a bad idea to try and nip it in the bud by telling them that you're not paying, and why.

In the unlikely event they take it further (e.g. sending you a Letter before Action/Claim or suggesting you may be prosecuted), feel free to come back for further advice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From a bit of Googling of previous threads a £35 admin fee is due for late payment (more than 21 days) of an unpaid fares notice. When was it issued exactly? Does the same apply to PFs?

 

[skyhigh]

Very cheeky of them to add an admin charge for a successful appeal. Surely any successful appeal that fee should be passed back to the TOC who issued the penalty fare in the first place.

Otherwise it undermines the appeal system. Pay the TOC £20 for a penalty fare even if issued incorrectly or appeal it and get it overturned only to be landed with a £35 "admin" charge.

I suspect it's an accidental fee that been added, rather than a deliberate attempt to charge a fee for successful appeals. That doesn't change the fact it looks very poor though.

 

[Snow1964]

From a bit of Googling of previous threads a £35 admin fee is due for late payment (more than 21 days) of an unpaid fares notice. When was it issued exactly? Does the same apply to PFs?

The screen shot shows penalty on 2nd, paid on 18th (17 days later) so unless the system is displaying incorrect dates is within 21 days

Then Administration fee is 2-3 weeks later when balance was zero after the successful appeal was booked.

I would be inclined to ignore it, either they will see it as mistake and reverse it, or someone with no common sense will issue a demand for fee for winning your appeal.

 

[Bertie the bus]

This is a guess but it is possible that although the £16.90 credit is dated 18th August it might not have been processed until later so at the 21 day cut off they still thought you owed £16.90. My advice is don't ignore it but contact them so it is properly sorted out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The screen shot shows penalty on 2nd, paid on 18th (17 days later) so unless the system is displaying incorrect dates is within 21 days

Then Administration fee is 2-3 weeks later when balance was zero after the successful appeal was booked.

I would be inclined to ignore it, either they will see it as mistake and reverse it, or someone with no common sense will issue a demand for fee for winning your appeal.

Was the PF incurred on the 2nd or did it enter IRCAS on that date? Question for the OP really.

 

[jensonatrain]

Thanks everyone for your help and advice! Really appreciate it. As a few have suggested, I've contacted them via the contact form to explain the situation and attached a screenshot, so am expecting something back in the next few days hopefully. I'm expecting at least a good 5 "sorry"s in their reply, and I'm sure they won't disappoint me

@Bletchleyite the PF was incurred on the 2nd of August, I launched an appeal on the same day, and it was accepted on 18th August. I paid immediately on the same day to be safe, so all dates are accurate and - I hope - will protect me if they continue to pursue this! I also checked the 'Unpaid Fare' option in case there was something hanging around there that I've missed, but as I only had a PF reference, there's presumably nothing on there. I suppose there was a balance of £20 on the IRCAS from 2nd September, but as it was reduced to £3.10 and then paid by the 18th anyway, we didn't hit the 21 day mark any way that you cut it, I don't believe.

Altogether a very odd and infuriating letter to receive!

I will post back soon hopefully with a response form IRCAS.

 

[island]

It’s bound to be a mistake rather than anything sinister or malicious; pop them a letter or email and I’m sure it’ll be sorted.

As there was a successful appeal there is no basis for prosecution, and you do not have any contract with IRCAS so they cannot take civil action.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks for the clarification, this definitely sounds an error on their part.

 

[jensonatrain]

Hi all,

Thanks again for your advice. As many of you suspected, IRCAS have responded to say it was a simple mistake. Not quite as many apologies as I would have liked, but it's good to know I'm not going to be chased over a silly error made by them! Seems odd that there was a letter and a charge on the payment portal, but now I have this email I won't bother worrying over it.

Thank you for your recent correspondence regarding the above reference.

We have looked into the matter and can see that a letter was sent out in an administrative error.

Please accept our apologies regarding this and we can confirm that the case is closed and completed.

Therefore, no further action will be taken.