Suggestion for one National Railcard with standard T&Cs

[Moonshot]

Mods' note: Split from Suggestion for Off Peak to be the same everywhere

Possibly true, although compared to the range of tickets available elsewhere, some of these routes are looking quite pricey at the moment. Perhaps in the spirit of using excess capacity, they should consider introducing lower off peak fares on these routes.

One of the points raised by the TSC at the 2020 inquiry was that future growth should be moved to areas which can absorb it. I mentioned on the starter thread to this one that all railcards should be replaced by a single national one which would include all single travellers between the ages of 25-60 who dont qualify for a railcard.

 

[yorksrob]

One of the points raised by the TSC at the 2020 inquiry was that future growth should be moved to areas which can absorb it. I mentioned on the starter thread to this one that all railcards should be replaced by a single national one which would include all single travellers between the ages of 25-60 who dont qualify for a railcard.

Now there's something I would agree with.

 

[Flamingo]

I fail to see the difference between a railcard that can be used by everybody aged 26-60, and simply reducing all rail fares by 1/3 (neither of which will happen).

Can anybody enlighten me what the difference, in practice, is?

 

[higthomas]

I fail to see the difference between a railcard that can be used by everybody aged 26-60, and simply reducing all rail fares by 1/3 (neither of which will happen).

Can anybody enlighten me what the difference, in practice, is?

The only difference I can think of is that it has the effect of reducing all off-peak fares, probably only those in standard class, of those people who spend more than £90 a year on train fares.
The main outcome of this is that you don't reduce the price of many of the most expensive tickets; season tickets and anytime tickets.
I think this is a good idea, because it encourages people to travel more, to justify spending £30 on a railcard, and encouraging them to travel off-peak. But to make your query slightly more precise, I would say that I don't see the difference between a national railcard and reducing off-peak and advance tickets by 1/3.

 

[yorksrob]

I fail to see the difference between a railcard that can be used by everybody aged 26-60, and simply reducing all rail fares by 1/3 (neither of which will happen).

Can anybody enlighten me what the difference, in practice, is?

The railcard is a sunk cost which acts as an incentive to get people to use the train when they otherwise wouldn't. "I've forked out thirty quid on this railcard so I might as well get my moneys worth out of it". This is the same thought process behind the other railcards, and contrary to the belief of the railway companies, able bodied 25-60 year olds aren't a seperate species to everyone else.

 

[paul1609]

The only difference I can think of is that it has the effect of reducing all off-peak fares, probably only those in standard class, of those people who spend more than £90 a year on train fares.
The main outcome of this is that you don't reduce the price of many of the most expensive tickets; season tickets and anytime tickets.
I think this is a good idea, because it encourages people to travel more, to justify spending £30 on a railcard, and encouraging them to travel off-peak. But to make your query slightly more precise, I would say that I don't see the difference between a national railcard and reducing off-peak and advance tickets by 1/3.

Id say the main problem with either idea is that off peak trains are already crammed beyond capacity in several parts of the country. It would make more sense to withdraw national railcards like 16-25 and implement regional railcards where spare capacity exists.

 

[yorkie]

I fail to see the difference between a railcard that can be used by everybody aged 26-60, and simply reducing all rail fares by 1/3 (neither of which will happen).

Can anybody enlighten me what the difference, in practice, is?

Two big differences spring to mind:

1) Increased revenue from people buying the cards, and once people have them, being more likely to use rail rather than other modes

2) Companies generally buy non-discounted tickets for their employees, irrespective of any discounts held by the employee. In fact I know some Companies have a policy of only purchasing 'Any Permitted' Anytime fares where available!

A card with common conditions for all, but the cost varying depending on eligibility (e.g. £15 for people with local authority concession cards rising to maybe even £100), would be best I think.

 

[LexyBoy]

More realistic could be a national "loyalty scheme" where the discount scales with value of tickets bought over the past year:
<£100: 0%
£100-500: 5%
£500-1000: 10%
£1000-3000: 20%
>£3000: 34%

This could perhaps be done using a card with barcode/number which could be used online or at stations.

Alternatively, a more attractive (to ATOC) option would be introduce a national railcard but remove regulation of Off Peak fares - easy to play as a "good news" story and the DfT would probably buy it, claiming that with the railcard and Advances we no longer need regulated fares (except for commuters, of course).

On capacity, I would like some mechanism where trains which are consistently <50% loaded cannot be counted as peak... of course the counterside to this is not so attractive as Crosscountry would be totally unaffordable!

 

[Deerfold]

On capacity, I would like some mechanism where trains which are consistently <50% loaded cannot be counted as peak... of course the counterside to this is not so attractive as Crosscountry would be totally unaffordable!

Of course TOCs may then lobby to be allowed to offer less capacity on these trains...

And as tickets are on/off-peak, not trains would they have to have a rolling monitor mechanism across all trains on the network - TOCs would want to be compensated for all this counting they'd need to do.

 

[johnnycache]

The existing railcards are designed to appeal to segments of the market which are particularly price sensitive

The senior railcard, for example, only makes money for the railway because of the card price - in other words if we just gave seniors the discounts without the need to buy a card we would be worse off

Network card is just about profitable with the minimum fares in place but the long distance TOCs would not be interested in accepting it

The most profitable card i seem to remember is Family and Friends

 

[Moonshot]

The existing railcards are designed to appeal to segments of the market which are particularly price sensitive

The senior railcard, for example, only makes money for the railway because of the card price - in other words if we just gave seniors the discounts without the need to buy a card we would be worse off

Network card is just about profitable with the minimum fares in place but the long distance TOCs would not be interested in accepting it

The most profitable card i seem to remember is Family and Friends

It is worth pointing out that the average fare paid by the passenger for any single journey in the UK is just a tad over £5. Now as we all know , at peak times, demand outstrips supply, but off peak the reverse is true. Encouraging the sale of off peak seats ( there is nothing more perishable than an empty seat on a train at the end of its journey ) would seem to be a rational way of increasing revenue with almost no marginal cost. As I pointed out earlier, the TSC stated at the end of the 2020 enqiry that future growth should be targeted at areas where the network can absorb it. Its an absolute no brainer.....

 

[NSEFAN]

It is worth pointing out that the average fare paid by the passenger for any single journey in the UK is just a tad over £5. Now as we all know , at peak times, demand outstrips supply, but off peak the reverse is true. Encouraging the sale of off peak seats ( there is nothing more perishable than an empty seat on a train at the end of its journey ) would seem to be a rational way of increasing revenue with almost no marginal cost. As I pointed out earlier, the TSC stated at the end of the 2020 enqiry that future growth should be targeted at areas where the network can absorb it. Its an absolute no brainer.....

Whilst we do want to fill every seat, as earlier mentioned some off peak fares are valid during rush hours on longer distance routes, complicating matters somewhat. Attempting to fill every seat by a national railcard would indeed probably result in harsher off peak restrictions.

 

[Moonshot]

Whilst we do want to fill every seat, as earlier mentioned some off peak fares are valid during rush hours on longer distance routes, complicating matters somewhat. Attempting to fill every seat by a national railcard would indeed probably result in harsher off peak restrictions.

70% of tickets sold today have some sort of discount attached to them..........and surely if every off peak seat was in fact filled, then harsher peak restrictions would actually be irrelevant anyway as the objective was actually achieved?

 

[yorksrob]

The existing railcards are designed to appeal to segments of the market which are particularly price sensitive

The senior railcard, for example, only makes money for the railway because of the card price - in other words if we just gave seniors the discounts without the need to buy a card we would be worse off

Network card is just about profitable with the minimum fares in place but the long distance TOCs would not be interested in accepting it

The most profitable card i seem to remember is Family and Friends

In that case, maybe a National Network Card would need to be more expensive than has yraditionally been the case. Nevertheless, the motivation of the passenger to travel more remains the same and I don't think its credible these days to assume that single households between 25 and 60 are uniquely insensitive to price.

 

[NSEFAN]

70% of tickets sold today have some sort of discount attached to them

Do you have a breakdown of what discounts are applied (season tickets, advance fares, railcards, etc)? It'd be interesting to see.

and surely if every off peak seat was in fact filled, then harsher peak restrictions would actually be irrelevant anyway as the objective was actually achieved?

I was more concerned with the effect on busier services, where off peak tickets are valid but the train is already full due it being the rush hour. Obviously filling the quieter trains is good, but surely not at the expense of even more people on the really packed services?

 

[Moonshot]

Do you have a breakdown of what discounts are applied (season tickets, advance fares, railcards, etc)? It'd be interesting to see.


I was more concerned with the effect on busier services, where off peak tickets are valid but the train is already full due it being the rush hour. Obviously filling the quieter trains is good, but surely not at the expense of even more people on the really packed services?

I havent.....but buried in the ORR data portal there is info to that effect somewhere. The 70% figure was one I was actually quoting from the ORR anyway.

 

[Flamingo]

Some of the busiest trains I work are "off-peak"! Sunday afternoons especially do not need to attract anybody else onto the long-distance trains.

Advance tickets are already in place giving eyewateringly cheap fares on the quietest trains, and restricting the people who want that discount to the quiet train. I really don't think yet another discount is required on top of that discount

 

[SS4]

Whilst we do want to fill every seat, as earlier mentioned some off peak fares are valid during rush hours on longer distance routes, complicating matters somewhat. Attempting to fill every seat by a national railcard would indeed probably result in harsher off peak restrictions.

I would say it'd be counter-productive to fill every seat because of passenger comfort. If trains were routinely full then I for one would be put off travelling by train and I suspect others would too simply because it would not be a nice journey.

70% of tickets sold today have some sort of discount attached to them..........and surely if every off peak seat was in fact filled, then harsher peak restrictions would actually be irrelevant anyway as the objective was actually achieved?

I suspect the undiscounted ticket is the Anytime and hence Off-Peak is classed as discounted.

 

[yorkie]

Some of the busiest trains I work are "off-peak"! Sunday afternoons especially do not need to attract anybody else onto the long-distance trains.

Advance tickets are already in place giving eyewateringly cheap fares on the quietest trains, and restricting the people who want that discount to the quiet train. I really don't think yet another discount is required on top of that discount

Some of the advance fares would no doubt have to be reviewed in light of this. I'd also suggest that Railcard discounted advance fares on some of the trains you'd have in mind are, frankly, too cheap.

I'd also suggest that on some routes there is a very noticeable under-provision of capacity for the demand, while on other routes the opposite is the case. While those issues are not addressed, then there will always be overcrowding on certain services, while others carry fresh air as potential passengers are forced onto the roads.

 

[MotorcycleAlan]

Speaking as one who just qualified for a Senior card, after many years with a Network Card, I can honestly say that my rail use has increased dramatically because all journeys now compete with the cost of car or motorcycle travel. Prior to this I rarely used rail when the Network Card was not allowed, or was subject to the £13 minimum, as road travel was cheaper especially if two of you were going, when even a taxi was often competitive. On my travels I am surprised so many trains in the South East are almost empty all day and wish more publicity was given to offers like "Daysave" an excellent ticket for flexibility and value for money. Keep it going please Govia!
My biggest gripe (still) is not being able to travel home from London early in the morning after an overnight stay, when trains from Victoria and Waterloo leave almost empty, so if working the next day it still has to be the A3 or M3 or pay a fortune on the train. At least the roads are also quiet leaving London!

 

[CockneySparrow]

I have a Network Card myself and use it with FCC who offer no advanced fares which reduces my travel by a third, if I travel north I can't use the rail card however I can get loads of advanced fare options that reduce my travel by more than a third anyway so dont really see the point of a national card

If there was a national card how would it affect the advanced ticket scheme, will TOC increase the prices to allow for the railcard discount

 

[yorksrob]

I have a Network Card myself and use it with FCC who offer no advanced fares which reduces my travel by a third, if I travel north I can't use the rail card however I can get loads of advanced fare options that reduce my travel by more than a third anyway so dont really see the point of a national card

If there was a national card how would it affect the advanced ticket scheme, will TOC increase the prices to allow for the railcard discount

Most non InterCity journeys in the north don't have advance fares.

With regard to advance fares SWT manages with both the Network Card and advanced fares.

 

[ashworth]

Most non InterCity journeys in the north don't have advance fares.

That most certainly is true. A few years ago when the fares system was supposed to be being simplified the national press reported that although the price of pay on the day fares would rise, people travelling on longer journeys who were able to book in advance would be able to take advantage of much cheaper fares. They didn't mention that this would be very much a lottery situation depending upon where you were travelling to/from and how many changes of trains and different TOCs the journey required.

I've just returned from a week in London and will be doing the same again in August. No problem if I book well in advance, using the EMT website, it costs me £9 each way from Mansfield to London. However, wanting to travel from Mansfield to Poulton Le Fylde in Lancashire, again in August, it's hard to find any advance fares and it looked like a £62.50 Off Peak Return. I've managed to get it down to £50 by splitting at Sheffield and going the longer journey via Leeds. This is typical of many longer distance cross country journeys involving more than one change of train. Advance fares are hard to come by.

I've recently taken early retirement - my own choice. I would therefore greatly appreciate a railcard that would offer reduced off peak fares for someone in their late 50's, retired, but does not yet qualify for a Senior Railcard. However, perhaps some would say that if I'm fortunate enough to be able to retire at 57 perhaps I can afford to pay full price for my rail fares!

 

[yorksrob]

That most certainly is true. A few years ago when the fares system was supposed to be being simplified the national press reported that although the price of pay on the day fares would rise, people travelling on longer journeys who were able to book in advance would be able to take advantage of much cheaper fares. They didn't mention that this would be very much a lottery situation depending upon where you were travelling to/from and how many changes of trains and different TOCs the journey required.

I've just returned from a week in London and will be doing the same again in August. No problem if I book well in advance, using the EMT website, it costs me £9 each way from Mansfield to London. However, wanting to travel from Mansfield to Poulton Le Fylde in Lancashire, again in August, it's hard to find any advance fares and it looked like a £62.50 Off Peak Return. I've managed to get it down to £50 by splitting at Sheffield and going the longer journey via Leeds. This is typical of many longer distance cross country journeys involving more than one change of train. Advance fares are hard to come by.

I've recently taken early retirement - my own choice. I would therefore greatly appreciate a railcard that would offer reduced off peak fares for someone in their late 50's, retired, but does not yet qualify for a Senior Railcard. However, perhaps some would say that if I'm fortunate enough to be able to retire at 57 perhaps I can afford to pay full price for my rail fares!

I do a fair few intermediate length journeys around the North and have similar issues. If you're lucky, there might be a half decent split, but it's very much pot luck.

 

[John @ home]

I've recently taken early retirement

Congratulations!

I would therefore greatly appreciate a railcard that would offer reduced off peak fares for someone in their late 50's, retired, but does not yet qualify for a Senior Railcard. ... I'm fortunate enough to be able to retire at 57

Club 55 is your friend. I'm off to Scotland next week. Carlisle - Mallaig £19 return is magnificent value! Available for outward travel until 30 June.

Hopefully the wider Club 55 scheme will return in the autumn.

 

[CockneySparrow]

Most non InterCity journeys in the north don't have advance fares.

With regard to advance fares SWT manages with both the Network Card and advanced fares.

Thanks, I only know the ones I use like East Coast, EMT, FCC and Greater Anglia

FCC dont offer any at all neither does GA well on the rural routes