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Suggestions for the traditional InterCity services post HS2

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adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Basing this on both arms of HS2 north of Birmingham have been built, what do forum members suggest for a service pattern with clock face departures (Taktplan)?

My suggestion is as follows:

Table 26 London Kings Cross - Yorkshire, the North East, and Scotland

xx00 Kings Cross, Peterborough, York, Newcastle Central, Berwick-upon-Tweed, Edinburgh Waverley (extending to Glasgow Central calling Haymarket and Motherwell every 2 hours, with some trains in the opposite hour extending to Aberdeen or Inverness as present)
xx03 Kings Cross, Stevenage, Peterborough, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate, Leeds
xx15 Kings Cross, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Lincoln Central (Summer Saturday and Sunday extensions to Grimsby Town and Cleethorpes)
xx18 Kings Cross, Stevenage, Grantham, Doncaster, then alternating every 2 hours to each of Hull and Bradford Interchange calling Selby, Howden, Brough, and Hull, and Pontefract Monkhill (every 4 hours), Wakefield Kirkgate, Mirfield, Brighouse, Halifax, and Bradford Interchange
xx30 Kings Cross, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle Central, Morpeth, Edinburgh Waverley
xx33 Kings Cross, Stevenage, Peterborough, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate (or Garforth Parkway), Leeds
xx45 Kings Cross, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, York, Northallerton, Eaglescliffe, Stockton-on-Tees, Billingham, Seaton Carew, Hartlepool, Horden, Seaham, Sunderland
xx48 Kings Cross, Stevenage, Grantham, Doncaster, York

Table 51 Scotland, the North East and North West to the South West and South Coast via Birmingham New Street

Glasgow Central or Edinburgh Waverley - Bournemouth every 60 minutes calling Motherwell or Haymarket, Lockerbie, Carlisle, Penrith, Oxenholme, Lancaster, Preston, Wigan North Western, Warrington Bank Quay, Crewe, Stafford, Wolverhampton, Sandwell & Dudley, Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International, Coventry, Leamington Spa, Banbury, Oxford General, Reading, Basingstoke, Winchester, Southampton Airport Parkway, Southampton Central, Brockenhurst, Bournemouth

Edinburgh Waverley or Newcastle Central - Penzance calling Alnmouth for Alnwick (ex Edinburgh), Durham, Darlington, York, Doncaster, Rotherham Masborough (reopened), Sheffield, Chesterfield, Derby, Tamworth, Birmingham New Street, Worcestershire Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, Bristol Parkway, Bristol Temple Meads, Taunton, Tiverton Parkway, Exeter St Davids, Newton Abbott, Totnes, Plymouth, Liskeard, Bodmin Parkway, Par (for St Blazey and Newquay) St Austell, Truro, Redruth, St Erth, Penzance

Liverpool Lime Street or Manchester Piccadilly - Reading or Southampton Central calling Runcorn, Hartford, Crewe (ex Liverpool)/Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke on Trent (ex Manchester), Stafford, Wolverhampton, Sandwell & Dudley, Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International, Coventry, Leamington Spa, Banbury, Oxford General, Didcot Parkway, Reading, and on to Southampton Central as above if necessary

Leeds City - Bristol Temple Meads calling Wakefield Westgate, Rotherham Masborough, Sheffield, Chesterfield, Derby, Burton upon Trent, Birmingham New Street, Worcestershire Parkway, Cheltenham Spa, Bristol Parkway, Bristol Temple Meads (extensions in summer to Paignton or Newquay)


Table 53 Midland Main Line

xx00 St Pancras, Leicester, East Midlands Parkway, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, then every 2 hours to each of Leeds and York calling Rotherham Masborough (reopened), Wakefield Westgate, Leeds or Rotherham Masborough, Pontefract Baghill or Doncaster, York (Summer Saturday and Sunday extensions to Scarborough)
xx05 St Pancras, Kettering, Wellingborough, Market Harborough, Leicester, Loughborough, Beeston, Nottingham
xx30 St Pancras, Leicester, Long Eaton, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield
xx35 St Pancras, Kettering, Wellingborough, Market Harborough, Leicester, Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway, Nottingham


Table 65 London Euston - West Midlands, the North West, and Scotland

xx00 Euston, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Telford Central, Wellington Telford West, Shrewsbury
xx15 Euston, Milton Keynes Central, Rugby, Nuneaton, Crewe, Chester, and 2 hourly extensions to Holyhead
xx18 Euston, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Nuneaton, Stafford, Crewe, Hartford, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Kirkham & Wesham, Poulton-le-Fylde, Blackpool North
xx30 Euston, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe, Hartford, Runcorn, maybe Liverpool South Parkway, Liverpool Lime Street
xx45 Euston, Milton Keynes Central, Rugby, Nuneaton, Stoke on Trent, Macclesfield, Stockport, Manchester Piccadilly
xx48 Vacant. Perhaps as xx18 to Preston, then Lancaster, Carnforth, and selected stations to Barrow in Furness?

London Paddington - South Wales, Devon and Cornwall

No radical alterations except for all InterCity trains calling at Old Oak Common.

Summary

For Table 26, I have folded in the present Open Access routes into the main timetable for there to be standard departures from Hull, Bradford Interchange, and Sunderland.
Table 51 has the trains running along a North West - South Coast axis, and North East - South West axis. The trains can use Platforms 6 and 7 at Birmingham New Street as they are in the centre of the station for interchange between the axes.
Table 65 I have left gaps for the Euston - Crewe Regional Express to use the Fast Lines to Rugby.

Although there is no reference to London Liverpool Street - Norwich, I believe that this has now been downgraded to a Regional Express style route with the introduction of the new stock.
 
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HSTEd

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Why are you bothering with split stops on the ICEC stations?

Surely everything would turn into extensions of the Newark/York terminator running times we have now.

ie. Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark etc

There is no London-York traffic as that will defect to HS2, so you should be optimising for minor station-London and minor station-minor station traffic.
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Why are you bothering with split stops on the ICEC stations?

Surely everything would turn into extensions of the Newark/York terminator running times we have now.

ie. Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark etc

There is no London-York traffic as that will defect to HS2, so you should be optimising for minor station-London and minor station-minor station traffic.

I was thinking that the eastern arm of HS2 will not go beyond Leeds (New Lane), or have I got muddled up somewhere with the various posts relating to that section?
 

HSTEd

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I was thinking that the eastern arm of HS2 will not go beyond Leeds (New Lane), or have I got muddled up somewhere with the various posts relating to that section?
As far as I know there is still a branch to Ulleskelf which joins the line to York.
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
As far as I know there is still a branch to Ulleskelf which joins the line to York.

Many thanks for the clarification.

Regarding the East Coast (Table 26) I can safely assume that the Edinburgh and beyond will transfer over to HS2 therefore would not require any direct Kings Cross trains or at the most only one every 60 minutes calling at for example Alnmouth for Alnwick - Morpeth - Newcastle - Durham - Darlington - York - Doncaster - InterCity stations to Kings Cross?
 

HST43257

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For LNER + open access, I’d say

London to Edinburgh calling at St Neots (EWR interchange), Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth, Alnmouth (1tp2h), Berwick, Dunbar (1tp2h) and EDB - Alnmouth and Dunbar would get 1tp2h HS2 in my idea. Berwick would have an hourly HS2 service but probably deserves more than other places.

London to Leeds calling at Peterborough, Newark, Retford, Doncaster, Wakefield and Leeds.

London to York calling at Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, Doncaster and York.

London to Hull/Bradford/Sunderland/Middlesbrough (all 1tp2h) - first stop DON then split so Bradford and Sunderland together and Hull and Middlesbrough together. Most stops in all cases.

London to Sheffield calling at St Neots (EWR interchange), Peterborough, Nottingham, Langley Mill, Alfreton, Chesterfield and Sheffield - means Nottingham to Liverpool can run via Dore curve, as long as there’s an extra tph Sheffield to Manchester fast as part of NPR.

London to Cleethorpes/Nottingham - first stop PBO then GRA then 1tp2h to Cleethorpes calling at Newark, Lincoln, Market Rasen and TPE stops to Cleethorpes. 1tp2h to Nottingham calls at Bingham (and Aslockton?).


6 all day paths out of KGX should be possible. Open access is non existent in this as the services are merged, since I feel they should have equal rights to paths. Nothing going further north on ECML than NNG would be 9 or 10 car.
 

HSTEd

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If you are gonig to force trains through Platform 4 at Grantham there is little time saved by not stopping.
 

HST43257

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If you are going to force trains through Platform 4 at Grantham there is little time saved by not stopping.
This should be upgraded anyway if possible. The speed through there is atrocious.
 

willgreen

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Leeds New Lane isn't being built, by the way - services will run into new platforms at Leeds station, on the south side IIRC.
 

PTR 444

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This is my suggestion. I am not sure what would constitute an intercity and non-intercity service by then, so I have included all services from each London terminal that would be impacted by HS2 regardless.

I haven’t thought about departure times yet, but my idea is that defined corridors are established which each get a regular half-hourly service.

Euston
  • 2tph Wembley Central, Harrow & Wealdstone, Bushey, Watford Junction, Kings Langley, Apsley, Hemel Hempstead, Berkhamsted, TRING
  • 2tph Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, NORTHAMPTON
  • 2tph Watford Junction, Hemel Hempstead, Berkhamsted, Tring, Cheddington, Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley, Milton Keynes Central, Wolverton, Northampton, Long Buckby, Rugby, Coventry, Tile Hill, Birmingham International, Marston Green, BIRMINGHAM NEW STREET
  • 1tph Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Telford Central, Wellington, SHREWSBURY
  • 1tph Watford Junction, Milton Keynes Central, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Sandwell & Dudley, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe, Runcorn, Liverpool South Parkway, LIVERPOOL LIME STREET
  • 1tph Watford Junction, Bletchley, Milton Keynes Central, Rugby, Nuneaton, Atherstone, Polesworth, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, Rugeley Trent Valley, Stafford, Crewe, Winsford, Hartford, Acton Bridge, Runcorn, Liverpool South Parkway, LIVERPOOL LIME STREET.
  • 1tph Watford Junction, Bletchley, Milton Keynes Central, Rugby, Nuneaton, Atherstone, Polesworth, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, Rugeley Trent Valley, Stoke-on-Trent, Congleton, Macclesfield, Stockport, MANCHESTER PICCADILLY
  • 1tph Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley, Milton Keynes Central, Wolverton, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Stafford, Crewe, Sandbach, Holmes Chapel, Alderley Edge, Wilmslow, Stockport, MANCHESTER PICCADILLY
  • 1tph Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley, Milton Keynes Central, Wolverton, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Stafford, Crewe, Hartford, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Euxton Balshaw Lane, Leyland, PRESTON
  • 1tph Milton Keynes Central, Crewe, CHESTER
  • 1tph Milton Keynes Central, Crewe, Chester, Flint, Prestatyn, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Junction, Conwy, Bangor, HOLYHEAD
St Pancras
  • 2tph Luton Airport Parkway, Luton, Bedford, Wellingborough, Kettering, CORBY
  • 1tph Bedford, Kettering, Market Harborough, Leicester, Loughborough, NOTTINGHAM
  • 1tph Bedford, Wellingborough, Market Harborough, Leicester, Loughborough, DERBY
  • 1tph Luton, Leicester, Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway, Beeston, NOTTINGHAM
  • 1tph Luton Airport Parkway, Leicester, Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway, Long Eaton, Derby, Belper, Chesterfield, SHEFFIELD
King’s Cross
  • 1tph Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark North Gate, LINCOLN
  • 1tph Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark North Gate, Retford, Doncaster, YORK
  • 1tph Peterborough, Newark North Gate, Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate, LEEDS
  • 1tph Peterborough, Newark North Gate, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick-upon-Tweed, Dunbar, EDINBURGH WAVERLEY
  • 1tph Grantham, Retford, Doncaster, Selby, Howden, Brough, HULL
  • 1tp2h Doncaster, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Eaglescliffe, Hartlepool, SUNDERLAND
  • 1tp2h Doncaster, Pontefract Monkhill, Wakefield Kirkgate, Mirfield, Brighouse, Halifax, Low Moor, BRADFORD INTERCHANGE
 

quantinghome

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These ideas are too fixated on variable stopping patterns. HS2 removes the need for fast end to end times - that's already taken care of. A repeating regular timetable for local stations is what's needed.

Take ECML: you'd want to ensure that larger stations not served by HS2 still get a reasonably fast service to London: that means Peterborough, Doncaster, Hull, Middlesbrough. I wouldn't bother with Sunderland because any classic route will be significantly slower than HS2. Everywhere else gets an all-shacks service.

So you'd end up with something like:
  • 1tph Peterborough, Doncaster, Selby, Howden, Brough, HULL
  • 1tph Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, MIDDLESBROUGH
  • 1tph Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark North Gate, LINCOLN
  • 1tph Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark North Gate, Retford, Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate, LEEDS
  • 1tph Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark North Gate, Retford, Doncaster, Pontefract Monkhill, Wakefield Kirkgate, Mirfield, Brighouse, Halifax, Low Moor, BRADFORD INTERCHANGE
  • 1tph Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark North Gate, Retford, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth, Alnmouth, Berwick-upon-Tweed, Dunbar, EDINBURGH WAVERLEY
You'd maybe want to add an interchange with East-West rail as well. And direct services from Yorkshire to East Anglia.
 

irish_rail

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You certainly look after the cross country Birmingham to Bournemouth route at the expense of Birmingham to the south west.

Would be nice if the trains originating on the WCML and North west headed south west and not just to the south coast. Either Liverpool to Plymouth or Glasgow to Plymouth via WCML and maybe even Manchester on the way. Ever since voyagerisation the SW has had to make do with frequent connections to places like Darlington and Derby, but virtually nothing to Liverpool, Manchester or quick trains up the WCML to Scotland ( no wonder most people fly ).
 

Ianno87

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You certainly look after the cross country Birmingham to Bournemouth route at the expense of Birmingham to the south west.

Would be nice if the trains originating on the WCML and North west headed south west and not just to the south coast. Either Liverpool to Plymouth or Glasgow to Plymouth via WCML and maybe even Manchester on the way. Ever since voyagerisation the SW has had to make do with frequent connections to places like Darlington and Derby, but virtually nothing to Liverpool, Manchester or quick trains up the WCML to Scotland ( no wonder most people fly ).

The only place on that list Bournemouth currently has to "make do" with connections to is Manchester.

The South West seems to get the better deal out of the established XC pattern.
 

Purple Orange

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The only place on that list Bournemouth currently has to "make do" with connections to is Manchester.

The South West seems to get the better deal out of the established XC pattern.

Post HS2 I see no reason why Southampton, Bournemouth, Reading, Basingstoke shouldn’t be using the same model as Brighton and Portsmouth for train travel to the north - change trains. The XC route today struggles to compete with the car and even air from Manchester, and places north. The best route will be to take one of the 3 tph from Leeds, Birmingham or Manchester and change in London or through OOC if that route to Basingstoke, Reading or Oxford works out. Hell, even get HS2 to Birmingham, then change on to a classic XC service.

With 3 tph on HS2 and 1 tph on XC, there will be scenarios where you’re in London by the time the next XC service has reached Sheffield or Macclesfield.
 

PTR 444

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Post HS2 I see no reason why Southampton, Bournemouth, Reading, Basingstoke shouldn’t be using the same model as Brighton and Portsmouth for train travel to the north - change trains. The XC route today struggles to compete with the car and even air from Manchester, and places north. The best route will be to take one of the 3 tph from Leeds, Birmingham or Manchester and change in London or through OOC if that route to Basingstoke, Reading or Oxford works out. Hell, even get HS2 to Birmingham, then change on to a classic XC service.

With 3 tph on HS2 and 1 tph on XC, there will be scenarios where you’re in London by the time the next XC service has reached Sheffield or Macclesfield.
Even with HS2 taking the South Coast - Birmingham flows, I think there will still be demand for journeys such as Southampton - Oxford. I would therefore keep the Bournemouth - Birmingham section but divert it to terminate at Snow Hill after Leamington so that it frees up platforms at New Street. I would then withdraw the second Birmingham - Reading service and in its place, run a semi-fast Snow Hill to Oxford, a Ipswich - Reading via EWR and a Paddington - Southampton via OOC.

That way, passengers from Southampton, Winchester and Basingstoke have a choice of either taking the slower direct train to Birmingham, or going via OOC and HS2 for a faster service with only one change.
 

Purple Orange

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1tph Leighton Buzzard, Bletchley, Milton Keynes Central, Wolverton, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Stafford, Crewe, Sandbach, Holmes Chapel, Alderley Edge, Wilmslow, Stockport, MANCHESTER PICCADILLY

If you’re calling at places like Sandbach, Holmes Chapel & Alderley Edge, you’d need to either run 6-car trains with SDO or 4-car trains, or extend the platforms. Meanwhile you may as well stop at Handforth and Cheadle Hulme too.

Even with HS2 taking the South Coast - Birmingham flows, I think there will still be demand for journeys such as Southampton - Oxford. I would therefore keep the Bournemouth - Birmingham section but divert it to terminate at Snow Hill after Leamington so that it frees up platforms at New Street. I would then withdraw the second Birmingham - Reading service and in its place, run a semi-fast Snow Hill to Oxford, a Ipswich - Reading via EWR and a Paddington - Southampton via OOC.

That way, passengers from Southampton, Winchester and Basingstoke have a choice of either taking the slower direct train to Birmingham, or going via OOC and HS2 for a faster service with only one change.
Yes there would be need for Southampton-Oxford, but I wouldn’t bother running those trains up to Leeds or Manchester.

HS2 will really split up XC. Birmingham New Street to the south coast should be the limit of the service on that leg. The South West is a different issue due to a lack of through travel to Bristol.
 

irish_rail

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The only place on that list Bournemouth currently has to "make do" with connections to is Manchester.

The South West seems to get the better deal out of the established XC pattern.
Sigh ok, if you want to be pedantic about it, let's replace Bournemouth with Southampton. The south coast route thus gets direct trains to Manchester as well as Scotland via the WCML.
As others have pointed out it will be quicker to make those journeys via HS2. The south west however gets no benefit from hs2 so should be getting the trains to Liverpool , Manchester and Scotland via the WCML Post hs2.
 

adrock1976

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You certainly look after the cross country Birmingham to Bournemouth route at the expense of Birmingham to the south west.

Would be nice if the trains originating on the WCML and North west headed south west and not just to the south coast. Either Liverpool to Plymouth or Glasgow to Plymouth via WCML and maybe even Manchester on the way. Ever since voyagerisation the SW has had to make do with frequent connections to places like Darlington and Derby, but virtually nothing to Liverpool, Manchester or quick trains up the WCML to Scotland ( no wonder most people fly ).

Although not mentioned in the opening post, my vision for the North West to the South West was Liverpool/Preston/Manchester to Bristol Temple Meads/Exeter St Davids was as normal route to Crewe, then calling Shrewsbury, Hereford, Abergavenny, Severn Tunnel Junction, maybe Filton Abbey Wood, Bristol Temple Meads, and onwards to Exeter.

Regarding Birmingham - Reading - Bournemouth, the present day Newcastle - Reading/Southampton via Doncaster runs via Solihull (not calling since the collapse of Operation Princess) between Birmingham New Street and Leamington Spa. It has been a desire for a long time to have it run via Coventry, calling there as well as Birmingham International. This will be easier post HS2, and hopefully, the element of the shelved Electric Spine project may see wires Nuneaton - Oxford, plus Reading - Basingstoke (wires should already have reached Oxford from Didcot by then), meaning that Scotland and the North West - Reading and the South Coast can be dual voltage straight electric trains.

The only place on that list Bournemouth currently has to "make do" with connections to is Manchester.

The South West seems to get the better deal out of the established XC pattern.

I believe that following a consultation a while ago, that it was decided to retain the Paignton and Newquay summer trains.

Post HS2 I see no reason why Southampton, Bournemouth, Reading, Basingstoke shouldn’t be using the same model as Brighton and Portsmouth for train travel to the north - change trains. The XC route today struggles to compete with the car and even air from Manchester, and places north. The best route will be to take one of the 3 tph from Leeds, Birmingham or Manchester and change in London or through OOC if that route to Basingstoke, Reading or Oxford works out. Hell, even get HS2 to Birmingham, then change on to a classic XC service.

With 3 tph on HS2 and 1 tph on XC, there will be scenarios where you’re in London by the time the next XC service has reached Sheffield or Macclesfield.

Southampton, Bournemouth, Reading, and Basingstoke to Coventry, Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Stoke on Trent, the North West are long standing connections dating back to at least 1988 or before. Unless I am mistaken, of all the maps and drawings I have seen of HS2 so far, the route of HS2 does not go south of the Thames.

If you are comparing times with flying from Manchester Airport, I would recommend using the times to and from Stockport station as that is the closest InterCity station to the airport at this moment in time.
 
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Purple Orange

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Southampton, Bournemouth, Reading, and Basingstoke to Coventry, Birmingham, Wolverhampton, Stoke on Trent, the North West are long standing connections dating back to at least 1988 or before. Unless I am mistaken, of all the maps and drawings I have seen of HS2 so far, the route of HS2 does not go south of the Thames.

If you are comparing times with flying from Ringway (Manchester), I would recommend using the times to and from Stockport station as that is the closest InterCity station to the airport at this moment in time.
Those trains will be carrying fresh air after HS2 and the paths will be better served by local & regional commuter services.

It doesn’t matter one bit how long a service has been running, if passengers mostly shift to another route, a question mark needs to be placed over the viability of the existing service. Many trains from the north went to Brighton & Gatwick once upon a time, and Liverpool had Cross Country services too, but no longer. Times are changing.
 

adrock1976

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Those trains will be carrying fresh air after HS2 and the paths will be better served by local & regional commuter services.

It doesn’t matter one bit how long a service has been running, if passengers mostly shift to another route, a question mark needs to be placed over the viability of the existing service. Many trains from the north went to Brighton & Gatwick once upon a time, and Liverpool had Cross Country services too, but no longer. Times are changing.

The only trains I can ever remember serving Gatwick and Brighton were one journey each way to/from Manchester, and of course the famous Sussex Scot. Also, I remember there being one train that ran additionally to Eastbourne and Dover Priory on Summer Saturdays and Sundays.

When I did maths at primary school, I make that a total of two trains all year, plus the summer special to Dover making three. That is not many at all as what you are implying above.

Liverpool had their XC services withdrawn due to the collapse of Operation Princess.
 

Purple Orange

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The only trains I can ever remember serving Gatwick and Brighton were one journey each way to/from Manchester, and of course the famous Sussex Scot. Also, I remember there being one train that ran additionally to Eastbourne and Dover Priory on Summer Saturdays and Sundays.

When I did maths at primary school, I make that a total of two trains all year, plus the summer special to Dover making three. That is not many at all as what you are implying above.

Liverpool had their XC services withdrawn due to the collapse of Operation Princess.
The Brighton services were also lost due to Operation Princess. I used to get a Scotland train from Manchester that originated at Gatwick back in Virgin days.
 

The Planner

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Although not mentioned in the opening post, my vision for the North West to the South West was Liverpool/Preston/Manchester to Bristol Temple Meads/Exeter St Davids was as normal route to Crewe, then calling Shrewsbury, Hereford, Abergavenny, Severn Tunnel Junction, maybe Filton Abbey Wood, Bristol Temple Meads, and onwards to Exeter.

Regarding Birmingham - Reading - Bournemouth, the present day Newcastle - Reading/Southampton via Doncaster runs via Solihull (not calling since the collapse of Operation Princess) between Birmingham New Street and Leamington Spa. It has been a desire for a long time to have it run via Coventry, calling there as well as Birmingham International. This will be easier post HS2, and hopefully, the element of the shelved Electric Spine project may see wires Nuneaton - Oxford, plus Reading - Basingstoke (wires should already have reached Oxford from Didcot by then), meaning that Scotland and the North West - Reading and the South Coast can be dual voltage straight electric trains.
XC not stopping at Solihull was more to do with being overloaded with commuters and local traffic than Princess.
 

JonathanH

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The only trains I can ever remember serving Gatwick and Brighton were one journey each way to/from Manchester, and of course the famous Sussex Scot. Also, I remember there being one train that ran additionally to Eastbourne and Dover Priory on Summer Saturdays and Sundays
In the Summer and Winter of 2002/03 there were a fair number of Cross Country trains from Gatwick and Brighton. They then got cut back to the numbers seen previously.
 

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No MML stops at Bedford or Luton? What's the OP going to do with passengers changing onto the MML from Thameslink? Are you going to make them all go to St Pancras to access the service?
 

HSTEd

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My somewhat silly take on the east coast main line would be:

King's Cross

2tph Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate, Leeds
2tph Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, York
1tph Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, Selby, Brough and Hull
1tph Stenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, Scunthorpe, Barnetby, Cleethorpes

Honestly if you use split sets you could probably cut down the paths and use them for more local trains in the London area etc.

Something like

2tph Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, (Wakefield Westgate, Leeds)/(York)
1tph Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, (Selby, Brough, Hull)/(Scunthorpe, Barnetby, Cleethorpes)
 
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adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
No MML stops at Bedford or Luton? What's the OP going to do with passengers changing onto the MML from Thameslink? Are you going to make them all go to St Pancras to access the service?

I would like the MML InterCity calling Bedford (Midland) for interchange with East-West Rail, but I am unsure if that would mean altering the Thameslink services and many others south of the Thames.
 

JonathanH

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My somewhat silly take on the east coast main line would be:

King's Cross

2tph Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate, Leeds
2tph Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, York
1tph Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, Selby, Brough and Hull
1tph Stenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, Scunthorpe, Barnetby, Cleethorpes

Honestly if you use split sets you could probably cut down the paths and use them for more local trains in the London area etc.

Something like

2tph Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, (Wakefield Westgate, Leeds)/(York)
1tph Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, (Selby, Brough, Hull)/(Scunthorpe, Barnetby, Cleethorpes)
I don't think you want everything stopping at Stevenage as there if only one platform platform is being used for fast services and services running at the available headway, it would mean the second service would be held up on approach. It is better to let the first train departing from Kings Cross stop at an extra station, say, St Neots, and the second stop at Stevenage.
 

HS2isgood

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My suggestion:

LNER:
As others have already said, the main places that will be served by LNER are either those not served by HS2 (fasts), or intermediate stations (semi-fasts) along the way to York. The removal of some trains from the lower ECML would also make recovering direct services from East Anglia to York and Scotland possible. The number of fast services would be decreased in favour of connectivity. The halfhourly London services could be made hourly if there's demand.

- 1 tph King's Cross, Stevenage, St Neots, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Berwick-upon-Tweed, Dunbar, Edinburgh Waverley. (extending one train per day to Inverness for it to keep direct London service)
- 1 tp2h King's Cross, St Neots, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, York, Malton, Scarborough.
- 1 tph King's Cross, Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate, Leeds.
- 1 tp2h King's Cross, Stevenage, St Neots, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Lincoln, Barnetby, Habrough, Grimsby Town, Cleethorpes.

- 1 tp2h King's Cross, Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Eaglescliffe, Middlesbrough.
- 1 tp2h King's Cross, Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Eaglescliffe, Hartlepool, Sunderland.
- 1 tph King's Cross, Peterborough, Doncaster, Selby, Brough, Hull.
- 1 tph King's Cross, Peterborough, Doncaster, Pontefract Monkhill, Wakefield Kirkgate, Halifax, Bradford Interchange.

- 1 tp2h Colchester, Manningtree, Ipswich, Bury St Edmunds, Ely, March, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Morpeth, Berwick-upon-Tweed, Dunbar, Edinburgh Waverley, Haymarket, Motherwell, Glasgow Central.
- 1 tp2h Norwich, Ely, March, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Alnmouth, Berwick-upon-Tweed, Dunbar, Edinburgh Waverley, Haymarket, Motherwell, Glasgow Central.

Avanti West Coast/ London Northwestern Railways (fast services):
In the same way as in the ECML, the WCML would lose most longer services and focus on fast shorter journeys and intermediate journeys. AWC may be merged with LNWR if needed, and I don't know if those would all be Avanti services actually.

- 1 tph Euston, Milton Keynes, Coventry, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Telford Central, Shrewsbury.
- 1 tph Euston, Watford Junction, Bletchley, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Sandwell and Dudley, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme Lake District, Penrith North Lakes, Carlisle, Lockerbie (Motherwell and Glasgow Central or Haymarket and Edinburgh Waverley alternatively).

- 1 tph Euston, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, Stafford, Crewe, Chester, (Holyhead with the current stops or Wrexham General alternatively).
- 1 tph Euston, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Rugeley Trent Valley, Stafford, Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Blackpool North.
- 1 tph Euston, Watford Junction, Bletchley, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Stafford, Crewe, Wilmslow, Stockport, Manchester Picadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Salford Crescent, Bolton, (Blackburn or Preston, Lancaster, Carnforth, Ulverston, Barrow-in-Furness alternatively).
 
Last edited:

adrock1976

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Joined
10 Dec 2013
Messages
4,450
Location
What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
My somewhat silly take on the east coast main line would be:

King's Cross

2tph Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate, Leeds
2tph Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, York
1tph Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, Selby, Brough and Hull
1tph Stenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, Scunthorpe, Barnetby, Cleethorpes

Honestly if you use split sets you could probably cut down the paths and use them for more local trains in the London area etc.

Something like

2tph Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, (Wakefield Westgate, Leeds)/(York)
1tph Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, (Selby, Brough, Hull)/(Scunthorpe, Barnetby, Cleethorpes)
My suggestion:

LNER:
As others have already said, the main places that will be served by LNER are either those not served by HS2 (fasts), or intermediate stations (semi-fasts) along the way to York. The removal of some trains from the lower ECML would also make recovering direct services from East Anglia to York and Scotland possible. The number of fast services would be decreased in favour of connectivity. The halfhourly London services could be made hourly if there's demand.

- 1 tph King's Cross, Stevenage, St Neots, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Berwick-upon-Tweed, Dunbar, Edinburgh Waverley. (extending one train per day to Inverness for it to keep direct London service)
- 1 tp2h King's Cross, St Neots, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, York, Malton, Scarborough.
- 1 tph King's Cross, Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, Wakefield Westgate, Leeds.
- 1 tp2h King's Cross, Stevenage, St Neots, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Lincoln, Barnetby, Habrough, Grimsby Town, Cleethorpes.

- 1 tp2h King's Cross, Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Eaglescliffe, Middlesbrough.
- 1 tp2h King's Cross, Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Eaglescliffe, Hartlepool, Sunderland.
- 1 tph King's Cross, Peterborough, Doncaster, Selby, Brough, Hull.
- 1 tph King's Cross, Peterborough, Doncaster, Pontefract Monkhill, Wakefield Kirkgate, Halifax, Bradford Interchange.

- 1 tp2h Colchester, Manningtree, Ipswich, Bury St Edmunds, Ely, March, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Morpeth, Berwick-upon-Tweed, Dunbar, Edinburgh Waverley, Haymarket, Motherwell, Glasgow Central.
- 1 tp2h Norwich, Ely, March, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark Northgate, Retford, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Alnmouth, Berwick-upon-Tweed, Dunbar, Edinburgh Waverley, Haymarket, Motherwell, Glasgow Central.

Avanti West Coast/ London Northwestern Railways (fast services):
In the same way as in the ECML, the WCML would lose most longer services and focus on fast shorter journeys and intermediate journeys. AWC may be merged with LNWR if needed, and I don't know if those would all be Avanti services actually.

- 1 tph Euston, Milton Keynes, Coventry, Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Telford Central, Shrewsbury.
- 1 tph Euston, Watford Junction, Bletchley, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, Birmingham International, Birmingham New Street, Sandwell and Dudley, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme Lake District, Penrith North Lakes, Carlisle, Lockerbie (Motherwell and Glasgow Central or Haymarket and Edinburgh Waverley alternatively).

- 1 tph Euston, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Tamworth, Lichfield Trent Valley, Stafford, Crewe, Chester, (Holyhead with the current stops or Wrexham General alternatively).
- 1 tph Euston, Watford Junction, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Rugeley Trent Valley, Stafford, Crewe, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Preston, Blackpool North.
- 1 tph Euston, Watford Junction, Bletchley, Milton Keynes, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Stafford, Crewe, Wilmslow, Stockport, Manchester Picadilly, Manchester Oxford Road, Salford Crescent, Bolton, (Blackburn or Preston, Lancaster, Carnforth, Ulverston, Barrow-in-Furness alternatively).

Regarding the West Coast, I don't think that there are any crossovers anymore from the centre tracks (Fast Lines) to the outer tracks (Slow Lines) along the ex Trent Valley Railway between Nuneaton, Tamworth, Lichfield TV, and Rugeley TV. In other words, if calling Tamworth, you might as well call Lichfield and Rugeley TV as well while the train is on the Slow Lines. Perhaps The Planner could confirm if this is the case or not?

Also, how does Hartford to/from Warrington BQ and Preston feature in your suggestion above?
 
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