Suggestions for XC routes post EWR and other projects

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by adrock1976, 18 Apr 2015.

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  1. adrock1976

    adrock1976 Established Member

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    As detailed below, I have been on a huge train of thought (pardon the pun) regarding the future of Crosscountry services, both the traditional Intercity and the regional services in the context of the East - West project being completed to Bedford Midland, and various electrification projects proposed.

    I have not really given much consideration in regards to the TP network on the west to east axis via Huddersfield, as i was unsure whether they could form some sort of XC Regional services or whether the Huddersfield routes are better left as they are at present and in a network of their own.

    Below are my thoughts.

    Traditional XC Intercity

    Manchester to Reading via Birmingham core

    Every 30 minutes calling at Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke-on-Trent, Stafford, Wolverhampton, Birmingham New Street, then 1 every 60 minutes calling at Birmingham International, Coventry, Leamington Spa, Banbury, Oxford, Didcot Parkway, Reading West, Basingstoke, Winchester, Southampton Airport Parkway, Southampton Central, Brockenhurst, and Bournemouth, with one every 2 hours extended to Poole, Wareham, Dorchester South, and Weymouth on summer Saturdays and Sundays.
    The other service every 60 minutes calling at Solihull, Leamington Spa, Banbury, Oxford, Reading, with the rear portion continuing to Basingstoke, Winchester, Southampton Airport Parkway, and Southampton Central, with the front portion continuing to Wokingham, Farnborough North, Guildford, Dorking Deepdene, and Redhill.

    Combined together, this gives an improved frequency of every 30 minutes between Manchester and Southampton Central via Birmingham, Oxford, and Basingstoke, and combined with the local Reading – Basingstoke shuttle service, this provides a train every 15 minutes between Reading and Basingstoke.

    The Southampton Central/Redhill journeys extended northwards from Manchester calling at Oxford Road, Bolton, Preston, Lancaster, Oxenholme: The Lake District, Penrith, Carlisle Citadel, Lockerbie, then one every 2 hours calling at Motherwell and Glasgow Central, with the other one every 2 hours calling at Haymarket and Edinburgh Waverley. This would take over the present TP route from Manchester Piccadilly to Glasgow and Edinburgh, and reinstate direct links from north of Bolton to Oxford/Reading via Birmingham.

    Edinburgh Waverley/Newcastle Central to Bristol TM/Exeter SD/Plymouth/Penzance via Birmingham core

    Edinburgh Waverley to Plymouth or Penzance every 60 minutes calling at Berwick-upon-Tweed, alternating between Dunbar and Alnmouth for Alnwick either side, Newcastle Central, Durham, York, Leeds City, Wakefield Kirkgate, Meadowhall Interchange, Sheffield Midland, Chesterfield, Derby, Burton-upon-Trent, Tamworth, Birmingham New Street, Cheltenham Spa, Bristol Parkway, Bristol TM, Taunton, Tiverton Parkway, Exeter SD, Newton Abbott, Totnes, Plymouth, with one every 2 hours continuing to Penzance.

    Newcastle Central to Exeter SD every 60 minutes calling at Darlington, York, then the calling pattern as per the Edinburgh Waverley service to Exeter SD. One train every 2 hours to continue to Paignton on summer Saturdays and Sundays.

    Combined, this provides a train every 30 minutes between Newcastle Central and Exeter SD via Leeds City and Birmingham, and with some slight alteration to the Sheffield – London St Pancras services to evenly space the frequency, this would combine to give a train every 15 minutes between Sheffield and Derby. Furthermore, with the Nottingham – Cardiff Central via Birmingham services, this would combine to give a train every 15 minutes between Derby and Cheltenham Spa via Birmingham.

    Intercity via Oxford and Bletchley (East – West)

    New direct service from Swansea to York every 60 minutes calling at Neath, Port Talbot Parkway, Bridgend, Cardiff Central, Newport, alternating every 2 hours between Pilning and Patchway (perhaps when residential development at Pilning happens?), Bristol Parkway, Swindon, Oxford (perhaps Wooton Bassett and other local stations to reopen?), Bicester Town/London Road/Village (or whatever is the fancy name that happens to be in fashion at the time), Claydon or Verney Junction (for interchange with Great Central/Metropolitan Railway via Aylesbury), Bletchley, Bedford Midland, London Road, Loughborough, maybe EM Parkway, Toton (for HS2), Sheffield, Meadowhall Interchange (for HS2), Doncaster, and York.

    New direct service from Taunton or Exeter SD to Manchester every 60 minutes calling at Bristol TM, Bristol Parkway, Swindon, Oxford (perhaps Wooton Bassett and other local stations to reopen?), Bicester Town/London Road/Village (or whatever is the fancy name that happens to be in fashion at the time), Claydon or Verney Junction (for interchange with Great Central/Metropolitan Railway via Aylesbury), Bletchley, then a choice of 2 possible routes with one being most likely, and the other as it presently stands most unlikely (and part of my fantasy).

    1)From Bletchley via MK Central, Rugby, Nuneaton, alternating every 2 hours between Tamworth and Lichfield TV, Stoke-on-Trent, then either Macclesfield and Stockport, or Crewe, Wilmslow, and Styal, then Manchester Piccadilly (most likely)

    2)From Bletchley via Bedford Midland, London Road, Loughborough, maybe EM Parkway, Derby, Matlock, Bakewell, Millers Dale or Peak Forest, New Mills Central, and Manchester Piccadilly (unlikely, and the obvious problem is the missing track between Matlock and Peak Forest/Millers Dale)

    Combined together, this would mean a service every 30 minutes between Bristol Parkway and Bletchley. Alternatively to start off with, these could run as portions every 60 minutes between Bristol Parkway and Bletchley, with the portions attaching and detaching at these locations. When sufficient passenger loadings have increased and paths re-tweaked, the 30 minute frequency could be implemented.

    XC Regional services (including the carved up former RR Central/Central Trains services)

    Liverpool to Norwich Thorpe via Warrington Central, Manchester and Nottingham

    Retain the present frequency of every 60 minutes and calling patterns, but with the Sheffield and Ely calls omitted. The Sheffield call could be replaced with an additional new Liverpool – Manchester – Sheffield service, with the Leeds – Nottingham via Wakefield Kirkgate services being increased to every 30 minutes along the entire route. This would provide a frequency of every 30 minutes between Liverpool and Dore via Warrington Central and Manchester. Also, the Ely call could be replaced with a service from Birmingham, and doubling the frequency between Norwich Thorpe and Cambridge.

    Nottingham to Cardiff Central via Birmingham

    Increase the frequency to run every 30 minutes throughout the whole route, calling at maybe Toton? Beeston, Long Eaton, Derby, Burton-upon-Trent, Tamworth, alternating between Willington and Wilnecote, Water Orton, Birmingham NS, Bromsgrove (maybe dropped after local Cross City 20 minute frequency introduced?), Cheltenham Spa, Gloucester, Lydney, Chepstow, Caldicot, Newport, and Cardiff Central.

    Combined with the NE – SW Intercity services, this would provide a train every 15 minutes between Derby and Cheltenham via Birmingham NS.

    Birmingham to Stansted Airport/Anglia

    The present Birmingham NS – Stansted Airport service to be combined with the present Birmingham – Chester via Wrexham service, with the calling patterns remaining as present, with a frequency of every 60 minutes. The ATW Cardiff – Holyhead service can be diverted to run via Nantwich and Crewe, and a Liverpool – Halton Curve – Wrexham – Cardiff service could run, providing a frequency of every 30 minutes between Chester and Shrewsbury via Wrexham.

    The present Aberystwyth – Birmingham service to be extended to Anglia Region calling at Coleshill Parkway, Nuneaton, Leicester London Road, Oakham, Stamford, Peterborough, March, Ely, Bury St Edmunds, Stowmarket, and Ipswich. This would provide a combined frequency of every 30 minutes between Shrewsbury and Peterborough/Ely via Birmingham. Additionally, perhaps an early morning and late evening return journey could be extended from Ipswich to Harwich Parkeston Quay to connect with the Hook van Holland ferries.

    Obviously, as it presently stands, this would require constructive discussions with the Welsh Government to make this work.

    On a footnote, the local stations Nuneaton – London Road will be expanded upon below.

    Birmingham and West Midlands to Lincolnshire

    The present Hereford – Birmingham NS via Bromsgrove service to be merged with the present Birmingham NS – Leicester London Road short workings that calls all stations beyond Nuneaton. Additionally, merge these two services with the present local Leicester LR – Nottingham – Newark Castle services. Also double the frequency to every 30 minutes between Hereford and Newark Castle via Birmingham, London Road, and Nottingham Midland.

    The additional service introduced to continue beyond Newark Castle to Lincoln Central every 60 minutes, calling at Collingham, Swinderby, Hykeham, and Lincoln Central. This to be extended every 2 hours to Cleethorpes calling at Market Rasen, Barnetby, Grimsby Town, and Cleethorpes. This would give a standard 2 – hourly service between Lincoln Central and Cleethorpes, as the present timetable appears to be random services that do not follow any particular pattern. Furthermore, with the Anglia services, this would provide a train every 15 minutes between Birmingham and Leicester LR, every 15 minutes combined with the London St Pancras – Nottingham services between Leicester LR and Nottingham Midland, and every 30 minutes between Leicester LR and Newark Castle, with hourly and 2-hourly extensions to Lincoln Central and Cleethorpes, meaning that there would only be 1 solitary change at Nuneaton from Coventry.

    North West and North East to East Midlands

    The present Crewe – Derby shuttle to be supplemented by a new Liverpool – Derby via Warrington BQ and Stoke-on-Trent service. This would call at Edge Hill, Wavertree Tech Park, Huyton, St Helens Junction, Earlestown, Warrington BQ, Hartford, Crewe, then as the Crewe – Derby shuttles.

    This would double the frequency between Liverpool and Warrington BQ as it has poor links, with the last service being around 18:00. Also, this would double the frequency between Crewe and Derby, and would provide direct links between Liverpool and Stoke-on-Trent, and between Warrington and Hartford/Greenbank (not possible at present to travel directly between these 2 stations).

    The present Leeds – Sheffield and Nottingham via Wakefield Kirkgate limited stop service to run every 30 minutes along the entire route. Perhaps 1 train every hour could be extended to Grantham calling at Netherfield, Radcliffe, Bingham, Aslockton, Bottesford, and Grantham, so as to enable the Nottingham – Skegness services to be speeded up slightly.

    Furthermore, 3 daily Leeds – Nottingham service could be extended to start back from Glasgow Central, calling at Motherwell, Carstairs, Carlisle Citadel, Appleby-in-Westmoreland, Settle, Hellifield, Skipton, Leeds City, then to Nottingham as per standard calling points. There would be one early morning, one lunchtime/mid afternoon, and one evening service in both directions to and from Glasgow Central.

    Comments (and friendly and constructive criticism) are welcome :)

    In peace

    Adam
     
  2. DanTrainMan185

    DanTrainMan185 Established Member

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    Do you honestly think that Newcastle to Exeter as well as Derby to Cheltenham need a combined frequency of every thirty and fifteen minutes respectively? Or is just another case of not many people doing end-to-end journeys, such as with the Aberdeen to Penzance service?

    If the former, I personally think that is complete overkill.
     
  3. MidnightFlyer

    MidnightFlyer Veteran Member

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    A few initial thoughts:
    - Why would you alternate between Durham and Darlington, yet stop everything at Burton and Tamworth, when they are quite comfortably covered by the (as is now) half-hourly Nottingham-Birmi / Cardiff trains, in addition to every other Edinburgh-Plymouth stopping?
    - I cannot imagine anyone would be particularly keen on serving Water Orton half-hourly when it barely musters the custom for a train every two hours currently (probably not aided by being outwith Centro's pricing area IIRC), nor serving all three halts west of Gloucester on every service; which whilst Chepstow and to an extent Lydney have respectable footfalls, could probably only reasonably justify the current set up of the once per 2 hours ATW service supplemented in the alternate hours by the XC service. Also, why would you omit Severn Tunnel Junction if you are going to essentially turn it into an all-shacks after Cheltenham service? Surely it provides additional journey opportunities to / from Gloucester, Chepstow et al from Bristol, ergo is actually of use to someone?
     
  4. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    that has obviously taken a lot of time to come up with if little thought) and i dont want to be rude so will say it isn't very cogent or coherent and the suggestions seems to take issues like pathing, service conflicts, franchise boundaries, customer demand, population centres, stock allocation and economics as mere trifling inconveniences!

    It is best summed up by : :roll:
     
  5. Morgsie

    Morgsie Member

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    What about the current Bristol-Manchester services?
     
  6. bluenoxid

    bluenoxid Established Member

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    Misses the potential for WRAtH
     
  7. TheNewNo2

    TheNewNo2 Member

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    I do wonder why Norwich to Liverpool isn't an XC service, beyond it not going through Birmingham.
     
  8. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    My plan would be as follows

    Edinburgh Waverley to Plymouth
    calling at Berwick-upon-Tweed, alternating between Dunbar and Alnmouth for Alnwick either side, Newcastle Central, Darlington, York, Leeds City, Wakefield Westgate, Sheffield Midland, Chesterfield, Derby, Birmingham New Street, Cheltenham Spa, Bristol Parkway, Bristol TM, Taunton, Tiverton Parkway, Exeter SD, Newton Abbott, Totnes, Plymouth, with one every 2 hours continuing to Penzance. Two hourly alternating between Glasgow Central and Aberdeen.

    Edinburgh / Glasgow to Bournemouth / Weymouth
    Glasgow, Motherwell (1tp2h) or Edinburgh, Haymarket (1tp2h) then Lockerbie, Carlisle, Penrith (1tp2h), Oxenholme (1tp2h), Preston, Wigan NW, Warrington BQ, Crewe, Stafford, Wolverhampton, Birmingham New Street, Birmingham International, Coventry, Leamington Spa, Banbury, Oxford, Didcot Parkway, Reading, Basingstoke, Winchester, Southampton Airport Parkway, Southampton Central, Brockenhurst, and Bournemouth, extended to Poole, Wareham, Dorchester South, and Weymouth on summer Saturdays and Sundays.

    Newcastle to Southampton
    Newcastle Central, Durham, Darlington, York, Doncaster, Sheffield Midland, Chesterfield, Derby, Burton-upon-Trent, Tamworth, Birmingham New Street, Solihull, Leamington Spa, Banbury, Oxford, Reading, Basingstoke, Winchester, Southampton Airport Parkway, and Southampton Central,

    Gatwick / Heathrow to Manchester Piccadilly
    Heathrow 1tp2h / Gatwick Airport, Redhill, Dorking, Guildford 1tp2h then Reading, Didcot Parkway, Oxford, Milton Keynes, Northampton, Rugby, Nuneaton, Tamworth, Stoke On Trent, Macclesfield, Stockport and Manchester Piccadilly.

    Manchester to Plymouth / Paignton
    Every hour calling at Stockport, Wilmslow Crewe, Stafford, Wolverhampton, Birmingham New Street, Cheltenham Spa, Bristol Parkway, Bristol TM, Taunton, Tiverton Parkway, Exeter SD, Newton Abbott, then 1tp2h Plymouth and 1tp2h Paignton.

    Newcastle to Cardiff
    Newcastle Central, Durham, Darlington, Northallerton, York, Leeds City, Wakefield Westgate, Sheffield Midland, Chesterfield, Toton, Burton-upon-Trent, Tamworth, Birmingham New Street, Cheltenham Spa, Gloucester, Lydney (1tp2h), Chepstow (1tp2h), Newport, Cardiff, two hourly extensions to Swansea serving Neath, Port Talbot Parkway and Bridgend.

    Liverpool to Norwich no change to today
    Birmingham to Stansted remove Stamford, Oakham and Melton Mowbray but otherwise no change from today
    Birmingham to Leicester extended to Norwich calling at Stamford, Oakham, Melton Mowbray, Ely, Thetford, Norwich.
    Cambridge to Crewe calling Ely, Peterborough, Grantham, Nottinham, Derby, then as per Derby to Crewe service possible extension to North Wales.
    All services hourly

    Nottingham to Birmingham services extended to Cardiff (Swansea?) to take over Cardiff to Cheltenham service run by ATW. Hourly service extended from Nottingham to Lincoln calling at Newak Castle.
     
  9. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    Give up with the Solihull routing, XC aren't interested, I also doubt they will go back to Didcot either.

    Unless I am mistaken, Stoke and Macclesfield don't have Birmingham services on the routes above, meaning we have wasted a bit of cash on Norton Bridge!
     
  10. LeeLivery

    LeeLivery Member

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    You would seriously omit the growth towns of Kettering and Wellingborough, but have stops in tiny Dorking, Lockerbie, Neath and Port Talbot Parkway? All of which have a smaller population combined than Wellingborough, let alone Kettering - and that's before the planned 6000 homes are built there!

    If anything I would have an hourly Lincoln to Oxford/Reading service calling at Newark Castle, Lowdham, Nottingham, Beeston, East Mids Pkwy, Loughborough, Syston, Melton Mowbray, Oakham, Corby, Kettering, Wellingborough, Bedford Midland, Bletchley, Bicester Village, Oxford. I can't see a longer distance service being viable not going via Birmingham.
     
    Last edited: 19 Apr 2015
  11. me123

    me123 Established Member

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    I think what we're learning here is that the XC network is complex and we need quite a lot of thought and knowledge to get a pattern that works for as many people as possible, realising

    A big omission here IMO is the withdrawal of the XC operated services from the ECML to Glasgow. Whilst both proposals quite nicely propose increasing the WCML frequency, I think we'd be wrong to remove the direct trains between Glasgow and the North East.

    There's also quite a huge number of additional trains here going through Manchester - is there the capacity for this?
     
  12. GingerSte

    GingerSte Member

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    I also think a serious omission from the XC network is Hull. It seems to me that direct trains to Hull have been sacrificed for an ORCATS raid on Doncaster-Newcastle flows.

    I seem to remember that an additional XC service per hour was talked about at one point, serving Leeds and Wakefield Westgate rather than Doncaster. If this were to materialise, then I would like to see the Doncaster XC services go to Hull instead of Newcastle. Maybe they could alternate between Selby and Goole to bring both of those onto the XC network. I would also have the Donny train stop at Rotherham (either every hour or every other hour).

    Heading South, I would also include Lichfield and Sutton Coldfield in this network. If this third service per hour was run, then the pattern could be: one train calling at Burton and Tamworth, one train calling at Lichfield and Sutton Coldfield, and one express (passing through Burton and Tamworth but not stopping at either).

    I know how painfully slow the Sutton Coldfield line can be on an XC train (I had the pleasure last Monday). However, this is usually when the train is diverted, and as such the timetable has not been optimised for these services. If a regular service was to be run, I'm sure that with a bit of optimisation, and maybe some additional passing points at stations, the time penalty on this line compared to Burton/Tamworth could be substantially reduced.
     
  13. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    You would have to re-write the entire Birmingham Cross City timetable to do that, for 1tph XC, never gonna happen.
     
  14. TBY-Paul

    TBY-Paul Member

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    I would like to see one service, that instead of going York-Darlington-Durham/Newcastle, goes York, Stockton, Durham/Newcastle along an upgraded Stillington line. This would then give Middlesbrough, Stockton & Hartlepool better connections and a rail service that is useful to "ALL" areas of Teesside.
     
  15. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    and now we shall suggest that every town or city that is not on the XC network should be added to the XC network.

    I will suggest Brighton :roll:
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     
  16. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    XC may not be interested in Solihull routing but may be forced due to lack of capacity via Kenilworth.

    Correct there are no trains Birmingham to Macclesfield however Norton Bidge money wouldn't be wasted. Extra services between Birmingham and Manchester required anyway. Perhaps extend a Pendolino from Birmingham to Manchester via this route.
     
  17. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    I can imagine they get their way in the end, West Mids and Chilterns route study is currently being written so I expect something will get recommended in it to allow it.
     
  18. GingerSte

    GingerSte Member

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    The timetable gets re-written twice a year anyway.

    The infrastructure is all there, even if the Burton-Lichfield section leaves a lot be desired. As I said, I know you can get XC services down that line (remembering that long distance XC and commuter services are busy at different times).

    I would also point out that two commuter services an hour start/terminate at Four Oaks instead of Lichfield. Four Oaks has three platforms (if I remember correctly), so one train could be turned around on the middle platform while expresses pass on either side.

    As an example, heading east out of Birmingham New Street on the northern pair of lines...
    - 10:35 to Lichfield City
    - 10:36 to Birmingham International (Arriva Trains Wales - included as on same section of line east of New Street)
    - 10:39 to Euston (London Midland - included as on same section of line east of New Street)
    - 10:45 to Four Oaks
    - 10:50 to Euston (Virgin WC - included as on same section of line east of New Street)
    - 10:52 (for example) 3rd XC tph to North East via Sutton Coldfield and Lichfield
    - 10:54 to Euston (LM - included as on same section of line east of New Street)
    - 10:55 to Lichfield TV
    - 10:57 to Walsall (LM - included as on same section of line east of New Street)
    - 11:05 to Bournemouth (XC - included as on same section of line east of New Street)
    (I picked actual times from National Rail Enquiries. If I missed any out, please add them in. I'm not suggesting this time - just a concept.)

    So the (theoretical) 10:52 leaves New Street 7 minutes after the 10:45 to Four Oaks. By the time it reaches Sutton Coldfield it has caught up and is roughly 2-3 minutes behind. By the time it reaches Four Oaks, the 10:15 is out of the way on the middle platform and the 10:23 is now 10 minutes behind the 10:05 to Lichfield City.

    The other existing times show that a 2 minute headway can be achieved heading east out of New Street. This is down to 1 minute between the 10:54 to Euston and the 10:55 to Lichfield TV.

    Assuming that our theoretical 10:52 arrived at Lichfield City 2 minutes after the 10:35 (ie at 11:13), and that Lichfield City to Burton can be done in 11minutes (12 miles, so average speed of 65mph - you would need better infrastructure between Lichfield TV and Burton) this would put it in Burton at 11:24, which is the existing calling time for the XC Plymouth to Edinburgh.

    If XC are/were serious about the third train per hour, then they would have to run through the eastern throat of Birmingham New Street regardless of which line they were taking.
     
    Last edited: 19 Apr 2015
  19. MidnightFlyer

    MidnightFlyer Veteran Member

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    I don't believe it is - the 1054 Euston is booked out of 4 (taking T21/04/15 as an example), and the 1055 Lichfield out of 9 - to me this says the Euston takes the Up Stour and the Lichfield the Up Derby, so they are on separate lines. There's also the issue in either direction that the Trent Valley terminators dwell on the Down line and the City terminators on the Up line at the respective locations, which means (as far as I can tell anyway) heading into Birmi you need to be a good way clear of the incoming service at City, which at a guess would mean you're more than likely to be right up the backside of something by Erdington / Aston.
     
  20. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    No it doesn't. There are two timetables a year, but most are just rolled over with minor changes, some lines have none at all and are just validated to make sure it is compliant.

    Four Oaks has a bay platform, it isn't a through one.

    You are confusing the Stours and Derby lines. The headway from Proof House to New St is normally 3 minutes, but we can have two services two minutes apart if the next one is 4 behind those.

    The 1035 uses the Derby lines
    1036 uses the Stours so doesn't clash
    1039 uses the Stours and is 3 minutes behind so doesn't clash
    1045 uses the Derby lines as it is the next Cross City.
    1050 uses the Stours
    1054 uses the Stours
    1055 uses the Derby lines as it is the next Cross City
    1057 uses Stours so it doesn't clash with the 1055 as it uses the Vauxhall Chord and also stops at Duddeston so the 1055 gets away from it.
    1104 uses the Stours.

    Your 1052 can't fit as the Leicester is using the Derby lines and you can't use the Stours as the Virgin and LM are there. You cannot plan to be 2-3 minutes behind at Sutton Coldfield, the headway on the north section of the Cross City is 5 minutes. You cannot go at 1049 as the Nottingham is there and at 1045 is a Four Oaks. You would need to be at 1042 so to be far enough behind the 1035 to Lichfield and even then you are going to catch that before it gets to Wylde Green.

    See above, that isn't the case.

    Which you cannot do, the headway on the north section of the Cross City is 5 minutes.

    Just a bit, you would need to upgrade pretty much all of Lichfield to Wichnor and the junction and resignal pretty much all of the northern Cross City.
     
  21. Class 170101

    Class 170101 Established Member

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    As an add on. Last year when Landor Street Jn was being renewed last year there was a nine day blockade of this junction.

    Class 170 services between Stansted and Birmingham and between Nottingham and Cardiff were reduced to hourly around Birmingham so the short runs to Leicester and Nottingham from Birmingham did NOT run and the remaining services were diverted via Walsall and the Sutton Park Line.

    Voyager / HST services were diverted via Lichfield. However to get this to work the Cross City line had to implement the leaf fall timetable reducing the number of services on this route to 4tph vice 6tph to give paths to XC to run services via this route.
     
  22. GingerSte

    GingerSte Member

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    I had forgotten that the Cross City trains went on the southern pair of lines (and pass over the Stour lines). However, I think there is still a connection between Cross City and Stour lines immediately north of that flyover.

    Okay, so revising for the Derby pair of lines (using The Planner's suggestion)...

    - 10:25 to Lichfield TV
    - 10:30 to Newcastle
    - 10:35 to Lichfield City (terminate this one at Four Oaks instead)
    - 10:42 (for example) 3rd XC tph to North East via Sutton Coldfield and Lichfield
    - 10:45 to Four Oaks (terminate this one at Lichfield City instead)
    - 10:49 to Nottingham (included as on same section of line east of New Street)
    - 10:52 to Leicester (included as on same section of line east of New Street)
    - 10:55 to Lichfield TV
    - 10:57 to Walsall (included as on same section of line for part of Journey later on)
    - 11:03 to Edinburgh (included as on same section of line east of New Street)

    The swapping of the Four Oaks and Lichfield services is a change, but I don't think it is the biggest one in the world. And no, I haven't checked it out in the other direction, before anyone asks.

    I have assumed that the bay platform at Four Oaks allows a train to be turned around / parked for a while to let other services past. I have not assumed that a fast train has overtaken a slow one.

    With regard to the XC train catching the local up before Wylde Green, I never said that the XC service could run at full speed and this not happen. Short of sending out the 10:35 service at (say) 10:33 to give an extra couple of minutes headstart, there's not much that can be done without bigger infrastructure improvements. The idea about using this line was to bring connectivity between people on that line and the north (and the East Midlands) without having to travel south to Birmingham first.

    My point is that your reply about re-writing the whole of the Cross City timetable (and therefore not gonna happen) was a bit of a strong way of putting it. I also found it a bit defeatist. There were 2 slight modifications above, but not huge ones.
     
  23. life210

    life210 Member

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    I personally would like to see a second service per hour between Leeds and Birmingham.
     
  24. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    It isn't defeatist, it is looking at the bigger picture, the largest market on the Cross City is to Birmingham on a clockface, not for 1 tph on the Cross Country network as the infrastructure and cost to provide it isn't going to get a return. People using New St would see the time penalty and go for the fast trains on the existing route. This is a solution without a real problem (a common theme on the forum), the way to do anything about this is the idea that has already gathered momentum with various organisations in the past, you extend the Cross City to Burton.
     
  25. route:oxford

    route:oxford Established Member

    Messages:
    4,224
    Joined:
    1 Nov 2008
    There will be so many changes at the point of E-W rail opening that it is difficult calculate what effect it will have on the XC franchise as it stands currently. Indeed, I doubt it will be possible to reasonably re-tender the franchise until at least 2 years after E-W opens.

    Definites:-

    Thames Valley electrification (all way to Brum?)
    Class 800/801 arriving in Thames Valley
    Bicester chord opening
    E-W opening
    1 XC path per hour on EW

    Possibles

    New Station Wantage/Grove
    Opening of BMW line to passenger traffic

    Rumoured

    Reduction of "Fast" Paddington services to hourly


    Just looking at timetabling, where time is of the essence for the traveller going to Manchester, they aren't going to sit on an XC service North of Oxford when routing via MK will cut 45 minutes off their journey. This will result in a considerable loss of income for XC. A price conscious passenger from Banbury could potentially route Oxford:MK:Manchester on a ticket priced by FGW then AP Virgin West Coast Ticket + Connections without a time penalty.

    I've run the options through my mind repeatedly and I can't quite decide what the outcome is going to be.

    I'm minded to think that that with the rumoured reduction of fasts to London, and the time waste of a through train to Manchester a good option might be to cut the "Manchesters" back to Birmingham-Reading to be operated by Class 801s and transfer the service to the FGW franchise. Then extend the Newcastles to the South Coast and ensure there is an E-W service running from Reading timetabled to connect with Manchesters at MK

    Then perhaps a new Bristol-Northampton service with a stop at a new W&G Parkway operated by XC.

    It's all a bit messy though.
     
  26. SpacePhoenix

    SpacePhoenix Established Member

    Messages:
    5,393
    Joined:
    18 Mar 2014
    What was the actual reason for XC services to Poole being "cut" and starting from Bournemouth instead? I think I remember seeing a mention somewhere of something to do with the buffet
     
  27. trivran

    trivran Member

    Messages:
    151
    Joined:
    23 Apr 2012
    Can you say "Barmouth to Yarmouth"? Near enough anyway!
     
  28. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Work - Fenny Stratford(MK) Home - Darlington
    No it doesn't!!!!!!!!! It gets reissued twice a year.

    To say your plans aren't possible isn't defeatist - it is called living in the real world. To implement your suggestions you are looking at massive infrastructure investment for little or no discernible reward coupled with a risk of alienating the core market on that route and thus reducing further the chances of the work ever returning the investment!

    As The Planner states as always this kind of thread looks like an answer looking for a problem.

    Why is this forum obsessed with XC services to Brighton and XC services via Lichfield?
     
  29. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

    Messages:
    15,375
    Joined:
    7 Apr 2010
    Not enough turn round time. Basically the trains ran in roughly the same timings as now, but instead of getting 30 mins layover between arrival and departure at Bournemouth, they got next to nothing at Poole.

    Any delays to incoming services at all, even very minor, meant that the northbound service was late to start, which would then compound problems elsewhere on the network. Then with similar issues occurring on other extremities of the original XC 'X shaped' network, something had to give.

    I don't think it had anything to do with the location of catering supplies, although lack of turnaround time would some effect, they do manage to restock the trolley supplies at Reading during 5 min stopovers...
     
  30. work-traveller

    work-traveller Member

    Messages:
    284
    Joined:
    18 May 2012
    Anything that includes a station at Steeple Claydon will have to wait some time as that won't happen in CP5, or possibly even CP6.

    More likely to see IR's call at Winslow than Bicester Town.

    Any IR's that have called at MKC are unlikely to call at Bletchley HL as it's only 5 minutes between them.
     
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