Summer Saturday Services From The East Midlands

[RichmondCommu]

G'day everyone,

Whilst recently looking through some photographs I came across two class 20's hauling a train to Skegness on the 25.8.1980. Nothing unusual about that of course however I was interested to see that the train had started at Burton upon Trent. My friend took the picture close to Willington Power Station and I'm assuming that the train didn't run via Stenson and Sheet Stores Junction's, in which case the train would have had to run around at Derby. In which case I can't help but think that it would have made more sense to start the train at Derby, especially given the need to move the rolling stock to Burton in the first place.

Any ideas anyone? I'm also interested in any other trains that ran from the East Midlands to the coast and for that matter trains from Manchester to Cleethorpes. I was already aware of trains running from Burton upon Trent to Skegness but can only recall them being formed of DMU's.

I look forward to your responses!

Kind regards,

Richmond Commuter!

 

[Taunton]

When did the curve from the north end of Derby station round onto the avoiding line and towards Trent close ? Certainly in the 1970s it was possible to leave Derby station from either end heading for Trent and Nottingham/Leicester.

 

[DarloRich]

G'day everyone,

Whilst recently looking through some photographs I came across two class 20's hauling a train to Skegness on the 25.8.1980. Nothing unusual about that of course however I was interested to see that the train had started at Burton upon Trent. My friend took the picture close to Willington Power Station and I'm assuming that the train didn't run via Stenson and Sheet Stores Junction's, in which case the train would have had to run around at Derby. In which case I can't help but think that it would have made more sense to start the train at Derby, especially given the need to move the rolling stock to Burton in the first place.

Any ideas anyone? I'm also interested in any other trains that ran from the East Midlands to the coast and for that matter trains from Manchester to Cleethorpes. I was already aware of trains running from Burton upon Trent to Skegness but can only recall them being formed of DMU's.

I look forward to your responses!

Kind regards,

Richmond Commuter!

Did that train not run from Derby most days and Burton once or twice a week?

 

[Phil.]

G'day everyone,

Whilst recently looking through some photographs I came across two class 20's hauling a train to Skegness on the 25.8.1980. Nothing unusual about that of course however I was interested to see that the train had started at Burton upon Trent. My friend took the picture close to Willington Power Station and I'm assuming that the train didn't run via Stenson and Sheet Stores Junction's, in which case the train would have had to run around at Derby. In which case I can't help but think that it would have made more sense to start the train at Derby, especially given the need to move the rolling stock to Burton in the first place.

Any ideas anyone? I'm also interested in any other trains that ran from the East Midlands to the coast and for that matter trains from Manchester to Cleethorpes. I was already aware of trains running from Burton upon Trent to Skegness but can only recall them being formed of DMU's.

I look forward to your responses!

Kind regards,

Richmond Commuter!

Love your use of the grocer's apostrophes.

 

[Bevan Price]

The number of summer saturday trains in the Midlands gradually decreased from a peak in the 1950s until they had almost disappeared by the early 1990s. In the 1970s & early 1980s, there were typically (amongst others):

Derby -Skegness (sometimes starting back at Burton Upon Trent)
Leicester - Skegness (sometimes needing a relief train at peak weekends)
Walsall - Yarmouth via Leicester
Manchester - Cleethorpes via Sheffield, Doncaster
Leeds - Cleethorpes (avoiding Doncaster)
Manchester - Skegness via Lincoln
Sheffield - Skegness via Nottingham and via Lincoln.

Sometime, I will post my lists of mid 1950s summer saturday services, when I have time to clarify some of the route details.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Did that train not run from Derby most days and Burton once or twice a week?

The number of summer saturday trains in the Midlands gradually decreased from a peak in the 1950s until they had almost disappeared by the early 1990s. In the 1970s & early 1980s, there were typically (amongst others):

Derby -Skegness (sometimes starting back at Burton Upon Trent)

From what I can gather this is certainly the case but I'm curious to know why the train ran with loco hauled stock on the days that it ran from Burton, especially given the logistics involved in getting the stock to Burton in the first place. Not to mention the need to run round the train at Derby.

Right at the end of my spotting days in around 1984 I'm pretty certain that a couple of my mates caught a Skegness bound train at Derby that was formed of DMU's and originated in Burton. I'm guessing that the stock for that train would have run empty stock from Tyseley as the DMU's were not Derby based class 120's.

 

[Taunton]

Right at the end of my spotting days in around 1984 I'm pretty certain that a couple of my mates caught a Skegness bound train at Derby that was formed of DMU's and originated in Burton. I'm guessing that the stock for that train would have run empty stock from Tyseley as the DMU's were not Derby based class 120's.

Also common around the East Midlands were the original "Derby Heavyweight" units, in the E50000 series. Based at Lincoln, the 50 units were far more than needed for just Lincolnshire services, they got to Nottingham from Newark and Grantham, and then held down much of the Nottingham to Derby service, and indeed beyond. It seemed unusual to me that so much LMR service was provided by ER allocated trains.

 

[70014IronDuke]

G'day everyone,

Whilst recently looking through some photographs I came across two class 20's hauling a train to Skegness on the 25.8.1980. Nothing unusual about that of course however I was interested to see that the train had started at Burton upon Trent. My friend took the picture close to Willington Power Station and I'm assuming that the train didn't run via Stenson and Sheet Stores Junction's, in which case the train would have had to run around at Derby. In which case I can't help but think that it would have made more sense to start the train at Derby, especially given the need to move the rolling stock to Burton in the first place.
...

I don't know if it is relevant to 1980, but in the early 70s - most definitely in 1971 - the stock for the Skeggies was kept at Burton during the winter, and maybe even in the summer. And it was formed of all maroon Mk 1s, which were getting rare otherwise by then, six years into rail blue.

I don't remember the trains running from Burton at that time, however. Still, I could easily have not noticed it. The train used to depart Derby at around 09.15 or so, I think.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

When did the curve from the north end of Derby station round onto the avoiding line and towards Trent close ? Certainly in the 1970s it was possible to leave Derby station from either end heading for Trent and Nottingham/Leicester.

I thought it went with the Derby PB resignalling, sometime in c 1969.

 

[SouthDevonian]

In the mid-70s I went on an AwayDay excursion from Birmingham to Skegness, that had started back at Banbury (at the time there were lots of these excursions in the Spring, Summer & Autumn and they were really cheap, typically between £1.50 & £2.50). The destination was unknown until arrival as it was advertised as a mystery trip. Haulage was a pair of Rats (Class 25s) throughout and there was no advertised stop between Birmingham & Skegness. The Rats ran around at Derby on the way out (the return was via Castle Donnington) and Birmingham (both directions). There was a crew change at Nottingham station in each direction.

 

[MichaelAMW]

G'day everyone,

Whilst recently looking through some photographs I came across two class 20's hauling a train to Skegness on the 25.8.1980. Nothing unusual about that of course however I was interested to see that the train had started at Burton upon Trent. My friend took the picture close to Willington Power Station and I'm assuming that the train didn't run via Stenson and Sheet Stores Junction's, in which case the train would have had to run around at Derby. In which case I can't help but think that it would have made more sense to start the train at Derby, especially given the need to move the rolling stock to Burton in the first place.

Any ideas anyone? I'm also interested in any other trains that ran from the East Midlands to the coast and for that matter trains from Manchester to Cleethorpes. I was already aware of trains running from Burton upon Trent to Skegness but can only recall them being formed of DMU's.

According to this here GBTT, it ran FSX and was MThO 0846 from Burton, then on all four days 0928 from Derby, calling at Long Eaton, Beeston, Nottingham, Boston, Skegness arr. 1203. 26 - 29 May and 7 July to 4 Sept.

There's another FSX, the 0824 Leicester to Skegness. There's also a SO Derby to Yarmouth that went via Sleaford.

 

[SouthDevonian]

Regarding the line from Derby North Jn to Spondon Jn, the PSUL (Passenger Services over Unusual Lines) website states 'Withdrawn with effect from 7 October 1968 - all trains diverted via Chaddesden to use southern approach to Derby station instead'.

 

[Taunton]

in the early 70s - most definitely in 1971 - the stock for the Skeggies was kept at Burton during the winter, and maybe even in the summer. And it was formed of all maroon Mk 1s, which were getting rare otherwise by then, six years into rail blue.

The last main line maroon stock I saw was at the same time, winter 71/72 - it was a football excursion from Glasgow to Edinburgh one Saturday lunchtime which came into Haymarket with a Class 27 and red Mk 1s, with a range of scarves, heads and various other body parts thrust out from many of the droplights and ventilators. Someone was holding a pair of trousers out of one of them, doubtless removed from some poor fellow supporter - wonder how he overcame it!

 

[70014IronDuke]

The last main line maroon stock I saw was at the same time, winter 71/72 - it was a football excursion from Glasgow to Edinburgh one Saturday lunchtime which came into Haymarket with a Class 27 and red Mk 1s, with a range of scarves, heads and various other body parts thrust out from many of the droplights and ventilators. Someone was holding a pair of trousers out of one of them, doubtless removed from some poor fellow supporter - wonder how he overcame it!

heh heh. Would have been a Celtic or Rangers game vs the Jam Tarts, i presume?

I wish I could remember when the maroon stock for the E Midlands summer extras was done away with. I would always look out for it when passing Burton. It could well have lasted until 73. As I remember, they did do a bit towards keeping it in reasonable trim too - considering its limited usage. that is.

 

[Bevan Price]

From what I can gather this is certainly the case but I'm curious to know why the train ran with loco hauled stock on the days that it ran from Burton, especially given the logistics involved in getting the stock to Burton in the first place. Not to mention the need to run round the train at Derby.

Right at the end of my spotting days in around 1984 I'm pretty certain that a couple of my mates caught a Skegness bound train at Derby that was formed of DMU's and originated in Burton. I'm guessing that the stock for that train would have run empty stock from Tyseley as the DMU's were not Derby based class 120's.

I can't remember the changeover date, but some of the summer saturday services degenerated from loco-hauled to Tyseley based suburban dmus during the 1980s. For example, the Nottingham - Llandudno service became a pair of 3 car Class 116 dmus. A similar change happened to some Skegness services before Sprinters became available (and the summer extras largely disappeared).

 

[Masbroughlad]

In the mid to late 70s and possibly very early 80s, there was a midweek Summer service from Sheffield to Skegness via Lincoln.

I definitely remember it being hauled by a 31, a 37, a 40, a Peak and a 47 at some point. Most usually a 37 or a 31.

It was a consist of 7 or 8 mark 1 open carriages, if I recall correctly.

Great for a day out in Skeggy - I think it left Sheffield at 0800ish and returned from the coast at 1730 or so.

Happy days!

Most recently when I went to Skegness from Sheffield (2011?) - we had to change at Nottingham - the train was made up of a 153, a 156 and a 158.

As a slight aside, would it be possible to run say a Sheffield to Yarmouth service, or would it break TOC boundary/red tape rules?

 

[30907]

As a slight aside, would it be possible to run say a Sheffield to Yarmouth service, or would it break TOC boundary/red tape rules?

Well, an EMT unit works an Anglia trip Norwich-Lowestoft and back, so it's not impossible, by agreement between the two TOCs. An additional timetabled service, though, might be difficult: even if paths, stock and crews could be sourced, I imagine the DfT would have a view on the financial implications.

 

[Springs Branch]

I know the OP referring to "... East Midlands to the coast...." was talking about the east coast. But what about trains from the East Midlands to the "other" coast at Blackpool?

For years there were various loco-hauled summer Saturday trains from Leicester, Nottingham and Derby to Blackpool. These were interesting historically for their unusual routes through South Lancashire, which seemed to change year-by-year in the 1960s and 70s as sections of the original route progressively closed.

One of my favourites was a long-standing one from the obscure origin of Desford, running via Coalville to Burton-on-Trent, stopping at Derby, Matlock, Bakewell, Millers Dale, then - get the old maps out - stops at Cheadle Heath and West Timperley and non-stop to Blackpool North via Glazebrook, the ex-G.C. Wigan Central branch to Hindley South and the Whelley line to the WCML at Standish Jn.

After the Coalville, Matlock-Millers Dale and Glazebrook-Wigan lines closed (to passengers) in the 1960s, the Blackpool trains ran from Leicester via the Hope Valley, Ashburys, Miles Platting and Manchester Victoria, then for a few years used the Atherton line and the Dobbs Brow Jn - Horwich Fork link, until that line closed, when they continued to the Hindley No.2 - DeTrafford Jn curve and back onto the Whelley line. A few years later when the Whelley loop shut, the train ended up on a less imaginative route through Bolton and Chorley.

I was a trainspotting yoof knocking about the area on my pushbike at the time, but never bothered checking out these trains, their "rare track" and potentially rare motive power.

The Skegness and Cleethorpes SO trains were well known and had a big following. But no-one seems to mention the Leicester/Blackpool (or Sheffield/Blackpool) trains much.

My questions are:-
Can anyone speculate why?
Did the Blackpool trains feature less interesting haulage than their east coast relatives (e.g. Class 47 instead of Class 20s or 40s)?
Does anyone have any links to photos of the Leicester/Blackpool trains on the web?

 

[SouthDevonian]

The route of the Desford-Blackpool & return was even more complicated than stated above. The 1961 public timetable shows that the route between Desford & Burton was not straightforward as they also called at Swadlincote & Woodville each way. These two stations were on a loop off the direct line to the west of Moira (the Forgotten Relics website has a page about Swadlincote station & the loop). However the loop closed in 1962 and the 1963 timetable shows instead a pair of Leicester-Blackpool trains running via Loughborough.

The Hindley South – Cheadle route was used till the end of the 1964 season by the Leicester pair and a Nottingham-Blackpool pair as well. Between 1965 & 1967, they were diverted via Philips Park & Ashburys but in 1968 the northbound Leicester was re-routed north of Atherton to go via Hindley North (the other route used by holiday trains to access the Whelley line).

I agree that there doesn’t seem to have been that much written about the Blackpool (or North Wales) holiday trains compared with those to the East Coast. Perhaps the subject is too complicated. The most common topic I have seen was about Blackpool to Scotland & NE England (& vice versa) trains going around in a loop via Lostock Hall to the south of Preston station to avoid reversing in the station. Another topic was about the South Shields/Darlington-Blackpool service that ran via Stainmore summit & Tebay until 1961. More recently, I read an article about the two pairs of Sheffield-Blackpool trains that ran in 70s & early 80s. At the time, I didn’t realise that their origins were more complex and went back to the 50s & 60s. The ‘Midland’ Sheffield trains ran either via Hope, Cheadle Hindley South, etc or via Royston Jn, Thornhill Jn, Copy Pit. The ‘Great Central’ Sheffield pair (which started back at Chesterfield Central or, on peak Saturdays, Leicester Central) travelled via Woodhead, Ashburys & Philips Park. The outward train to Blackpool also travelled via Hindley North. Steam gave way to electric at Sheffield Vic for the run over Woodhead and it was back to steam at Midland Jn, near Ashburys. By 1966, both pairs of Sheffield trains ran via Copy Pit.

When I lived near Blackpool between 1976 & 1981, haulage of the holiday trains was by classes 37, 40 & 47. I think the only resort that the 20s went to was Skegness (I remember reading a magazine article by a chap who originally arranged their use).