Sunday Ticket Checks

[Andrew1395]

Euston to have gates within 2 years. Partly because you can capture people passing through on CCTV a lot easier with gates, partly because they want smart cards, partly because on train revenue on LM trains is woefully low compared to Thameslink and GN routes. Also the new LM London commuter franchise will be required to have a DOO plan to save costs by removing guards. DOO is seen as a no brainer by DfT.

 

[Hadders]

Euston to have gates within 2 years. Partly because you can capture people passing through on CCTV a lot easier with gates, partly because they want smart cards, partly because on train revenue on LM trains is woefully low compared to Thameslink and GN routes. Also the new LM London commuter franchise will be required to have a DOO plan to save costs by removing guards. DOO is seen as a no brainer by DfT.

The gates at Euston will principally be to protect Virgin revenue rather then LM. Platforms 9-11 where the majority of LM services depart from are already barriered and have been for some years.

Can you expand on what you mean when you say that LM train revenue is lower than Thameslink and GN. LM have guards on all of their trains whereas Thameslink and GN are DOO so I can't see how this can be true even if some LM guards chose to sit in the back cab.

 

[RJ]

I really dislike this view. Is it a contracted part of their role to do so, or is it genuinely optional? If so, surely they should be subject to disciplinary action for not doing their job as contracted? Or is LM too scared of strikes to make sure people do what they are paid to do rather than reading the Sun in the back cab?

I was told the selling of tickets was optional, during training and that commission was an incentive to collect some revenue for the company. Certain guards seemed to be quite desperate, selling families of 8 full priced tickets, then telling them to go to the window at Euston for a refund and to have Groupsave tickets issued. They could have just sold them the Groupsave tickets in the first place. My highest source of non-issues, closely followed by irritating TVMs offering tickets to places south of Central London, but not including the necessary Underground portion.

 

[PermitToTravel]

It's an unusual flaw that a ticket later being refunded won't result in the commission being revoked.

What those guards were doing sounds a lot like fraud....

 

[tsr]

It's an unusual flaw that a ticket later being refunded won't result in the commission being revoked.

What those guards were doing sounds a lot like fraud....

It certainly feels dubious to me on moral grounds, and possibly very bad for the company's image in a number of ways if found out by the public at large. All in all a terrible scheme.

 

[Andrew1395]

The gates at Euston will principally be to protect Virgin revenue rather then LM. Platforms 9-11 where the majority of LM services depart from are already barriered and have been for some years.

Can you expand on what you mean when you say that LM train revenue is lower than Thameslink and GN. LM have guards on all of their trains whereas Thameslink and GN are DOO so I can't see how this can be true even if some LM guards chose to sit in the back cab.

When they went DOO they actively put in on train revenue teams (rather than a single person checking between stops), plus penalty fare zones. It really is incredibly rare to have an on train ticket check on. LM South of MKC. Yes lots of. LM services on the Up and Down use platforms other than 8, 10 or 11, even outside the peak and at weekends. I got the 18.05 on. Saturday from 16. The gates on the. East and West side platforms at Euston will only have a marginal impact on Virgin revenue. As I said principally security, smart card readiness and for LM revenue.

 

[CockneySparrow]

There's only a point in doing a check if the expected revenue raised by checking exceeds the costs of having the people there to do the check. I wonder if the accountants have crunched the numbers and had it turn out negative.

Its more effective to not have inspections for a period of time then reintroduce them and then surprise penalty fare everyone
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London Midland made all their RPI's redundant 16 months ago. You rarely get checked by guards. The company relies on most of its customers going through gates aft Euston WFJ and MKC. They make no money checking tickets. Any extra revenue goes to DfT, but they keep any savings on operating the company. So in the run down of the franchise it makes sense to reduce your staff costs.

A fare dodger likes companies like LM who put the emphasis on gates rather than checks as sometimes its easier to get from A to B, take Cambridge for instance, its a piece of cake to dodge the fare! By having gates doesn't stop most all it does is push the problem somewhere else or disrupts the fare dodger
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It certainly feels dubious to me on moral grounds, and possibly very bad for the company's image in a number of ways if found out by the public at large. All in all a terrible scheme.

Management must know what's going on, the staff refunding the tickets must complain about it, but its not only this industry that is victim, happens in football when a player gets a bonus for each shot on target hence why a Newcastle player always had a punt from the half way line lol

 

[Tetchytyke]

Ironically London Midland had a full ticket block on at Euston this morning. Sadly they only had a couple of RPIs on, meaning it took well over ten minutes to get off the platform.

Whilst I'm glad to see them catching fare evaders (and they were catching plenty), sadly they seem incapable of doing any revenue protection properly. Even when they do it they just end up upsetting people, I wasn't the only annual ticket holder complaining about the ridiculousness of it.

 

[plastictaffy]

It really is incredibly rare to have an on train ticket check on. LM South of MKC. Yes lots of.

Again - you my friend, are talking out of your arris. If I am on my black-ink turn, I will always do a ticket check south of Milton Keynes, as do most of my colleagues. The only ones I will not check as a rule, is the xx15 from Milton Keynes - as usually, the Crewe Guard will have done it, and MKC is barriered.
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Can you expand on what you mean when you say that LM train revenue is lower than Thameslink and GN. LM have guards on all of their trains whereas Thameslink and GN are DOO so I can't see how this can be true even if some LM guards chose to sit in the back cab.

Revenue is up, and has been since the RPI's had their T's and C's changed.

We're being told regularly that it is up, and that we are doing a good job. Basically, we are picking up the slack left behind by aforementioned RPI's.

 

[Andrew1395]

27 trips between Euston and Bletchley on LM in last 21 days. On train ticket checks 0, staffed barrier checks at a Euston 1.

 

[Starmill]

When they went DOO they actively put in on train revenue teams (rather than a single person checking between stops), plus penalty fare zones. It really is incredibly rare to have an on train ticket check on. LM South of MKC. Yes lots of. LM services on the Up and Down use platforms other than 8, 10 or 11, even outside the peak and at weekends. I got the 18.05 on. Saturday from 16. The gates on the. East and West side platforms at Euston will only have a marginal impact on Virgin revenue. As I said principally security, smart card readiness and for LM revenue.

I've travelled on an LM service from Crewe to London - ticket checks took place by the guard between Crewe and Stafford, Birmingham and Marston Green and Northampton and Wolverton, and at the gateline at Euston.

Very often I have travelled on the ones that go via the Trent Valley and the incoming guard at MK has apologised for the inconvenience for passengers who have already had their tickets checked, but they would like to see all tickets again please. Nowt wrong with that, and if advised of it in advance people like me who get on at Crewe are totally fine with it.

 

[LowLevel]

I really dislike this view. Is it a contracted part of their role to do so, or is it genuinely optional? If so, surely they should be subject to disciplinary action for not doing their job as contracted? Or is LM too scared of strikes to make sure people do what they are paid to do rather than reading the Sun in the back cab?

They should be managed out of the business, to use the polite term. Quite unusual round our way.

I find ticket checks of a weekend to be far more of an ordeal and can sometimes double the time required. 99% of people are leisure/occasional travellers and the number of forgotten / expired rail cards, wrong trains on AP tickets and general enquiries go through the roof. A ticket check between Stockport and Sheffield on a busy 4 car train in the week will normally take me from Edgeley Jn to somewhere between Cowburn Tunnel and Bamford. A 2 car train on a Sunday has taken me until Heeley loop before. Consequently the chance of seeing me decreases as I may be stuck dealing with someone else who is lost and confused.

 

[A1]

On easter Sunday, my ticket was checked on abellio greater anglia (somewhere near cheshunt), so yes, tickets can be checked any time... (I rarely get checked, but notice late night stings at times, and some weekends are very enforcement heavy)

 

[Merseysider]

I can't recall ever not being checked on LM. Travelled New Street - Euston a week or so ago, had two checks by two different guards.
Then going Marylebone - Moor Street no checks at all by Chiltern other than the gates at MYB. So effectively a free ride for anyone able to get on the train after Marylebone.

 

[bunnahabhain]

I've travelled on an LM service from Crewe to London - ticket checks took place by the guard between Crewe and Stafford, Birmingham and Marston Green and Northampton and Wolverton, and at the gateline at Euston.

Very often I have travelled on the ones that go via the Trent Valley and the incoming guard at MK has apologised for the inconvenience for passengers who have already had their tickets checked, but they would like to see all tickets again please. Nowt wrong with that, and if advised of it in advance people like me who get on at Crewe are totally fine with it.

Its the best way to do things, as otherwise if you go down shouting "Tickets from X please" you'll miss the few who are actively trying to get away without paying unless challenged. If you go down and ask for all tickets and preadvise over the PA to have them ready due to a change of Guard then you'll catch all with any luck and its only of a minor inconvenience to those who have had their tickets checked already. Its also useful to get faces memorised so you don't repeatedly go back to the same person only to get "I've been on since Y!" half a dozen times.

 

[kieron]

Its the best way to do things, as otherwise if you go down shouting "Tickets from X please" you'll miss the few who are actively trying to get away without paying unless challenged.

You may also miss the few who would deliberately ignore a guard simply because he is asking for tickets from Reading, when the only member of staff they'd seen since boarding at Stafford was selling food and drinks.

 

[Starmill]

You may also miss the few who would deliberately ignore a guard simply because he is asking for tickets from Reading, when the only member of staff they'd seen since boarding at Stafford was selling food and drinks.

This is a good point. Although really as I'd imagine there's been a crew change by then, you'd have expected there to have been an effective handover including that sort of information from the outgoing conductor...

 

[Tetchytyke]

Then going Marylebone - Moor Street no checks at all by Chiltern other than the gates at MYB. So effectively a free ride for anyone able to get on the train after Marylebone.

That's unusual.

Chiltern are DOO between Marylebone and Banbury (with exception of the loco-hauled trains), but the guards tend to be good at getting through the train between Banbury and Moor Street.

 

[Starmill]

I've had that too, Locp Hauled set, no check onboard, gates open at Moor St. Just Marylebone gates.

 

[OneOffDave]

I'e been travelling MKC to Euston and back daily for the last 7 months and never had a ticket check with LM. Though given how crowded some of the evening trains, I'd be surprised if anyone could make their way the length of the train without treading on people

 

[trentside]

Personally, I tend to do more thorough ticket checks on a Sunday than I sometimes do during the week. In some cases its because our stopping patterns allow me a bit more time, but generally the motivation is it seems to be the day that you find a lot of people with expired railcards or other ticketing irregularities. I often find these people have traveled out on a Friday on trains where we don't stand a chance of even getting out the cab.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Personally, I tend to do more thorough ticket checks on a Sunday than I sometimes do during the week. In some cases its because our stopping patterns allow me a bit more time, but generally the motivation is it seems to be the day that you find a lot of people with expired railcards or other ticketing irregularities. I often find these people have traveled out on a Friday on trains where we don't stand a chance of even getting out the cab.

I had a young persons railcard presented to me from October 2014 which completely threw me! I was looking at it and I knew something was wrong and it eventually twigged it was a good six months out of date. I couldn't believe he'd managed to get away with it for so long!

The biggest thing that irritates me is that so many students travel on Off Peak Returns on longer distance services and don't get their return portions cancelled, so you see them running right up to the expiry date of validity. I know there are a small minority of commuters who buy two Anytime returns from either end at the start of them month as services they use are usually too busy for the guard to get down until the last few minutes. Its a favourite habit of mine to do a very quick check of all tickets at that point and cancel of any used return portions with my sharpie!

It all depends on your attitude towards revenue, I enjoy getting out in the train and chatting to folk and I like to set myself the goal of doing 100% revenue where I can unless its physically impossible. On sunday despite only working one round trip on a long distance route where all booking offices were open or TVMs were available I still managed to take a rather large amount simply down to folk "running late for the train" or thinking they "can get one on here" or just simply having an out of date railcard.

 

[OneOffDave]

I'e been travelling MKC to Euston and back daily for the last 7 months and never had a ticket check with LM. Though given how crowded some of the evening trains, I'd be surprised if anyone could make their way the length of the train without treading on people

Strangely, I had my first ticket check on an evening train with LM the day I posted the comment above! Could make one paranoid!

 

[Flamingo]

Saturday/Sunday trains are a nightmare to do tickets on. Unlike equally full weekday commuter trains, where everyone knows the score, and there are a large number of season tickets, the weekend travellers never have tickets ready, or have the reservation not the ticket, or give you a big bundle to sort out, and invariably have 20 questions about trains home, connections, and arrival times all of which they really should know before setting out on a journey half-way across the country. That's before I have to start actually taking time to sell tickets to the pay when challenged brigade.

If I can get tickets checked once in every carriage between London and Cardiff on a Sunday train, I've done well. There will be passengers boarding at London who will leave at Bristol before I get into their carriage, and passengers boarding at Reading and Swindon who will not get checked as I won't get back into that carriage.

 

[Starmill]

The biggest thing that irritates me is that so many students travel on Off Peak Returns on longer distance services and don't get their return portions cancelled, so you see them running right up to the expiry date of validity. I know there are a small minority of commuters who buy two Anytime returns from either end at the start of them month as services they use are usually too busy for the guard to get down until the last few minutes. Its a favourite habit of mine to do a very quick check of all tickets at that point and cancel of any used return portions with my sharpie!

Amusing that you're irritated by 'students' who buy Off-Peak Returns for journeys which, in many cases, will not have a Day Return ticket type available. I'm sure we're equally irritated that your employer doesn't want to sell us a cheaper return. Some ludicrously short journeys lack day-return fares. See here.

Surely you see that if someone is forced into buying an Off-Peak Return because the Off-Peak Day Return has been deleted from the database, they may be tempted to re-use them opportunistically where otherwise it wouldn't have crossed their mind? I'll bet that most people have picked this up from doing a day-return journey and not getting checked coming back, and wouldn't otherwise have realised it can save money. Many TOCs appear to have decided that having everyone pay that bit more for a period return and risking a few of them reusing them is better than letting everyone off with a cheaper Day Return.

FGW are prime culprits - a 25-30 minute journey in Reading to Swindon and if you want to come back, you're forced into buying a ticket valid for a month. That is a recipe that creates faredodgers. How many people really want to make such a short journey across two or more days? The worst thing is there is a Super Off-Peak Return - they're trying to milk it with 3 tiers of time restrictions but keep everyone paying the higher period return rate.

Even a journey of 90 minutes to 2 hours is easy to make both ways in one day, I can scarcely count the number of times I've done Manchester - London and back in the same day.

Do you really think that if an Off-Peak Day Return and an Anytime Day Return from Nottingham to London were available, people would not buy them, instead thinking 'I'll spend the extra £5-10 on the off-chance that the ticket isn't stamped and I can randomly make an extra journey again later even though I don't know if I will need to or not and it will only be in one direction.' Grantham to London is around the same distance and yet it has Off-Peak Day Returns both Hull Trains and Any Permitted, at around half the price of the period ones.

Does it sound like we've reached the worst of both worlds? There are difficulties but in some ways, yes I think we have. Welcome to the contemporary UK Railway Industry.

 

[Flamingo]

So it's the TOC's own fault for giving people increased flexibility? Interesting concept...

 

[RJ]

So it's the TOC's own fault for giving people increased flexibility? Interesting concept...

I think that was conceded years ago, when the period of validity for the outward portion of open returns were reduced. Even if it is defined as a criminal offence, it's still human nature for a lot of people to reuse a ticket that hasn't been cancelled. It's up to the railway to address this flawed thinking by taking mitigating steps.

I also wonder why day returns aren't available for more long distance journeys which are under 2.5 hours each way, it can realistically be done.

 

[Starmill]

So it's the TOC's own fault for giving people increased flexibility? Interesting concept...

How many people do you see with Reading - Swindon Super Off-Peak / Off-Peak Returns (poor sods that they are)? And how many of them are return portions, being used on the day of issue?
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It's up to the railway to address this flawed thinking by taking mitigating steps.

Precisely, although I'd go further - they don't need to address it, if someone has got it into their mind they're going to commit fraud that's difficult to hinder through fares structure. But at least do not plant the idea in people's heads as is the current practice on some routes.

I also wonder why day returns aren't available for more long distance journeys which are under 2.5 hours each way, it can realistically be done.

Again I completely agree. Although I wouldn't call Crewe to Preston particularly long-distance, and is there a Day Return? No...

Another thing that frequently happens is the TOC uses the Off-Peak Return to circumvent restrictions without giving people the benefit of the Anytime ticket. So look at Cheltenham Spa to Birmingham Stations for example. An Off-Peak Day Return is £24. An Off-Peak Return is £24.60. The former isn't valid between 1530 and 1815, but the latter is*. So if someone wants to make an Off-Peak journey on their outward, and return in the evening peak they will be sold a ticket valid for 30 days, again for a 30 minute short regional journey. The ticket type to price for these people would most sensibly be an Anytime Day Return - but one does not exist, presumably because XC think they can justify charging more for the period return. Reducing choice by offering extra flexibility that someone doesn't want - and then charging more for it. Why do I get the feeling XC have been down to my local Pizza place, that has had Buy One Get One "'free'" on for about 10 years now?

*If they're being excessed on a train leaving between the barred times this creates the ridiculous and hilarious conversation of:
"I'm sorry sir, Off-Peak tickets are not valid on this service."
"OK, how much is the difference?"
"Sixty pence, sir, here is your excess to Off-Peak Return."
"But you just said Off-Peak tickets are not valid on this service."



It's such a good job train fares are so

and you can 'quickly work out what ticket you need to make your journey' because the fare names 'describe when you can buy or use your ticket'.

 

[island]

That distinction was historically between cheap day returns and saver returns, which made somewhat more sense.

 

[sheff1]

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