Super Off Peak - Euston - Burton On Trent

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Ticket Man

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Hi all

Having a bit of trouble with a ticket and wondered if the routing experts could put their bit in to clarify.

Super off peak, London terminals to Burton on Trent routed "via Derby".

Is this ticket valid from London Euston? (restrictions times permitting of course)
I was under the impression that it would be as an any permitted ticket to derby is valid from Euston so this SSS would be ok too as you can travel to Burton via derby from Euston.

Help is much appreciated ;)
 
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SS4

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Subject to permitted routes there is no reason why you couldn't since Euston is undoubtedly a London Terminal (IMO)
 
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calc7

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EC seems to think you must travel via Derby and offers routes from St Pancras.
There is an Off-Peak Return, rte: any permitted, for about £1 so might be a useful excess.
 

Ticket Man

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Subject to permitted routes there is no reason why you couldn't since Euston is undoubtedly a London Terminal (IMO)
The London Terms bit is fine but the journey planner states that it is not valid as "the journey does not include one or more of the stations required by the fare"

Got me stumped, I need to know if this is valid though as the advice from the top is that it isn't and no one looks more silly than a ticket man giving out wrong info :oops:
 

island

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Would you not be doubling back between Peartree and Burton on Trent if you used this from Euston via Tamworth and Derby?
 

GadgetMan

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I don't believe it is valid. You would have to travel St Pancras to Derby and then onto Burton.

According to the manual the Super Offpeak via Derby is set by EMT.

If you want to travel Euston/Tamworth/Burton or Euston/Birmingham/Burton then it needs to be a Any permitted ticket or London Midland + Connections or Virgin + Connections.
 

Ticket Man

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would this mean that any ticket routed Via derby would not be valid out of Euston.
Seems a bit contradictory to me when london terms to derby would be valid via tamworth out of euston
 

island

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London Terminals to Derby is routed ANY PERMITTED (and would be valid to stop short at Burton-on-Trent, I suppose).

As far as I can see, there is no valid route going Euston-Tamworth-Derby-Burton without doubling back between Burton and Peartree.

The normal process for determining a valid route for a ticket from A to B routed via C is that you determine all the valid routes from A to B and discard those that don't go via C. You don't determine the valid routes from A to C and the valid routes from C to B and combine them together (except perhaps if there are no valid routes from A to B via C).
 

clagmonster

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The passenger is not using a through train.
According to Rail Miles the shortest route is out of St. Pancras, as 124 miles 49 chains. The shortest route from Euston is 127 miles 60 chains. Therefore, the 3 mile rule can not apply.

We therefore, referto the National Routeing Guide, available here: http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

All London Terminals (apart from Vauxhall - but that is not relevent here) are members of the London Group.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf page 38

Burton on Trent is a related station to the Derby Group, Lichfield Trent Valley, the Nottingham Group and Tamworth.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/routeing_point_identifier.pdf page 11

London-Burton single fares are as follows:
SVS £61.80
SOS £87.50

London-Derby single fares are as follows:
SVS £86.00
SOS £89.00
Both these fares are more expensive than the equivalent Burton fare, so Derby is not an appropriate routeing point.

London-Lichfield TV single fares are as follows:
SVS £46.00
SOS £81.00
Both these fares are cheaper than the equivalent Burton fare, so Lichfield TV is an appropriate routeing point.

London-Nottingham single fares are as follows:
SOS £74.50
This is cheaper than the equivalent Burton fare, so Nottingham is an appropriate routeing point.

London-Tamworth single fares are as follows:
SVS £46.00
SOS £81.00
These are both cheaper than the equivalent any permitted fare.

Routeing permissions for London Group-Lichfield Group are:
TV, TV+WM
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/permitted_route_identifier.pdf page 603
Using these map combinations, it is impossibe to trace a route from Euston-Lichfield via Derby.
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf pages 109 & 118
The shortest route from Lichfield-Burton is via Tamworth (unless something does Lichfield-Burton direct these days). Either way, you do not get the desired result this way.

Routeing permissions for London Group-Nottingham Group are: ER, ER+NL, NM
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/permitted_route_identifier.pdf

None of these maps provide a route out of Euston
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/Maps.pdf pages 38, 83, 84

Routeing permissions for London Grouo-Tamworth are: TV, TV+WM
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/permitted_route_identifier.pdf page 605

Like the Lichfield case, none of these maps provide a route from Euston-Tamworth via Derby, neither is Derby on the shortest route from Tamworth-Burton/

Therefore, I conclude that in my opinion, a London Terminals-Burton on Trent route Derby ticket is not valid out of Euston. If a passenger wishes to use such a ticket out of Euston, they should pay the appropriate excess fare to an any permitted ticket.
 

John @ home

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A London Terminals - Burton on Trent route Any Permitted ticket is permitted London Euston - Tamworth - Burton on Trent because that is the shortest route.
National Rail Timetable

Table 65 London Euston - Tamworth 110 miles
Table 57 Tamworth - Burton on Trent 13 miles
Total 123 miles


Table 53 London St Pancras - Derby 128.5 miles
Table 57 Derby - Burton on Trent 11 miles
Total 139.5 miles
But a London Terminals - Burton on Trent route Derby ticket is only valid on those Permitted Routes which pass through Derby.
 

calc7

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As far as I can see, there is no valid route going Euston-Tamworth-Derby-Burton without doubling back between Burton and Peartree.
Don't have the RG to hand - is London to Derby valid via Nuneaton, Hinckley and Leicester?
 

SickyNicky

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But a London Terminals - Burton on Trent route Derby ticket is only valid on those Permitted Routes which pass through Derby.
Of which there are none in the routeing guide - Derby is not an appropriate routeing point for Burton because of the fares rule.

However, the route Derby ticket makes it valid despite not being in the routeing guide. In the absence of advice in the routeing guide for these circumstances, I am forced to assume you can use only permitted routes from London to Derby plus permitted routes from Derby to Burton. And doubling back is not permitted.

But no doubt ther are other interpretations :)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Don't have the RG to hand - is London to Derby valid via Nuneaton, Hinckley and Leicester?
Nope, only maps TV or NM.
 
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clagmonster

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Of which there are none in the routeing guide - Derby is not an appropriate routeing point for Burton because of the fares rule.

However, the route Derby ticket makes it valid despite not being in the routeing guide. In the absence of advice in the routeing guide for these circumstances, I am forced to assume you can use only permitted routes from London to Derby plus permitted routes from Derby to Burton. And doubling back is not permitted.
Nottingham is an appropriate routeing point though. The shortest route from Nottingham to Burton passes through Derby, so a route Derby ticket must be used via the Nottingham Group.
 

LexyBoy

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A ticket's routeing can allow routes in addition to those permitted by the Routeing Guide. If it is more expensive than the Any Permitted, it will also be valid on any Permitted Route. The route via Derby is permitted by the ticket, not the RG, so appropriate RPs don't come into it.

I'm not aware of anywhere where the routes one way take via a given station but which is not permitted by the RG are defined. I think SickyNicky's interpretation is reasonable, but would expect ATOC to come up with a less favourable one if pushed.
 

yorkie

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You can't pass through an inappropriate routeing point.
True.; you can't do this when using the maps. (But of course you can on the shortest route rule, just in case anyone is wondering!)

I will look at return tickets (ignoring singles, which will be similar):

SSR Rte Derby £61.50 - Not valid via Tamworth, if a customer uses this ticket via Tamworth they are liable to be charged an excess to the appropriate fare which would be £1.30 (both portions) or £0.65 (for just one portion), the change of route excess is the same price whether purchased at the ticket office, at a barrier (if applicable) or on board the train, providing the passenger travels at a time when the Any Permitted SVR is valid out of Euston. Railcard discounts are allowed providing the original ticket was discounted.

SVR Rte Derby £87.00 - This is valid via Tamworth as it is more expensive than the Any Permitted fare, as well as obviously being valid via Derby. So it is valid both routes, despite appearing to only be valid via Derby. Some staff may consider a £0.00 excess to Rte Any Permitted appropriate.

SVR Rte Any Permitted £62.80 - This is not valid via Derby, however if a passenger travels at a time when the Rte Derby SSR is valid, then an excess fare of £0.00 should be issued. Again, this excess fare is the same price regardless of whether it is purchased at a ticket office, or at a barrier (if applicable) or on board the train. Many staff may waive the paperwork and allow travel.

SOR Rte Derby £173.00 - This is not valid via Euston & Tamworth, and if a customer travels via Tamworth the excess is to the appropriate fare, which is £2 (both portions) or £1 (one portion) unless the customer is travelling at a time when the SVR is valid, in which case the excess is £0.00. Again, railcard discounts are allowed and again the excess is the same price on board.

SOR Rte Any Permitted £175.00 - This is valid either route.

This system is described by ATOC as "simple" ;)
 
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