Super Off Peak Return with London Midland

[WestCoastTravel]

Good morning all.

My job dictates that I have to go to London from Preston on quite a few occasions in the next few weeks and generally I travel off peak in roder to avoid paying silly prices. Generally I will book in advance or split my journey at Crewe and travel with London Midland. This is where I have a question.

According to NFM2 there are two off peak London Midland only tickets between Crewe and London Euston:

Off Peak Return (SVR) at £30.00 valid for trains that arrive in London after 1000
Super Off Peak Return (OPR) at £20.00 valid for trains that arrive in London after 1300.

When I arrived at Crewe station last week for the 1733 London Midland serivce to London Euston and tried to purchase the £20.00 ticket I was told that the last service this was valid on was 1533 and I would have to get the £30 ticket instead.

Now I am missing something, because according to the NFM this ticket should be valid. There's nothing in there to indicate restricted validity after say 1700. I guessing this a local restriction imposed by London Midland.
In addition I note in the NFM2 the following statement is made about the OPR:

Not valid for travel on London Midland services timed to DEPART any station between 1630 and 1930 in either direction unless a connecting service is being used to complete a journey begun at a valid time.

How does this restriction work then???

Many thanks,

WestCoastTravel

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Not valid for travel on London Midland services timed to DEPART any station between 1630 and 1930 in either direction

:roll: Think you may have answered your own question as regards catching the 1733 from Crewe to London.

Although, rather unhelpfully, the London Midland website simply states that "Super Off-Peak tickets are available where there is more than one Off-peak fare for a journey. This cheaper fare will have more restrictions then the off-peak ticket" but without specifying what the additional restrictions (selected train times) actually are.

P.S. Whilst writing, anyone know why the London Midland "Super Off Peak" fares don't seem to be available when looking up trains/fares on the Virgin Trains website, even if you specify travel "via Northampton"? Not exactly impartial, is it? (!)

 

[WestCoastTravel]

Hmmm... didn't spot that - my mistake, obviously had woken up after doing a 17 hour stint at work yesterday!!!

 

[yorkie]

MONDAYS to FRIDAYS:

Not valid for travel on London
Midland services timed to
ARRIVE London Terminals before
1300.

Not valid for travel on
northbound London Midland
services timed to DEPART
London Terminals or any other
station, before 1030.

RETURN TRAVEL
Not valid for travel on London
Midland services timed to
DEPART any station between
1630 and 1930 in either
direction unless a connecting
service is being used to
complete a journey begun at a
valid time.

So the outward portion appears to be valid, but a return portion wouldn't be.

There are several tickets that have different restrictions on return portions compared to outward, e.g. out of KGX in the evening peak you can use RTN portions of Off Peak tickets but you can't use OUT portions!

Simple!

 

[tony_mac]

have the restrictions been changed? is there a way of finding out?

According to the online sites the 14:46 from Euston to Stafford is valid, but from Euston to Liverpool is not - isn't the train from Stafford 'a connecting service'?

Evening restrictions also seem to apply in both directions.
I have emailed london midland, but I don't imagine that I will get a sensible reply.

 

[Mojo]

There appears to be a bit of confusion with how that has been written there. The restriction text should actually read "Outward and Return travel." London Midland staff should have a shaded timetable with what times trains are valid on, and on this (together with what NRES says) will show that the Out is not valid in the evening.

 

[tony_mac]

ok, thanks for that, that's cleared up!
Is the bit about 'connecting service' also wrong then?
It seems that you can't buy a ticket online if there is a connection that leaves after 16:30.
I can't find the actual restrictions online, certainly not on their website - it's all very vague.

 

[yorkie]

The TOCs take pleasure in making conditions secret, you have to call up NRES or look them up in Avantix Traveller to find them out. Then you get conflicting information. The TOCs then choose a different restriction to what you've been told by National Rail/ATOC and make you pay more money. Whether this is legal or not is dubious but until someone challenges it they will continue to get away with it!!!

 

[tony_mac]

I have got the latest version of Avantix Traveller - which gives the restrictions shown in this thread. As they don't seem to be what is actually being applied, I don't know how you are supposed to find out!

I hope that they don't also have some super-secret rule to stop me using a super off-peak return from Liverpool to Nuneaton for Liverpool to Birmingham instead!

 

[Mojo]

Interestingly enough, the ticket machines (operated by Virgin) at New Street list the only restriction as arriving at London after 13.00 (as does Avantix NFM02). So in this case I am sure you'd legally be entitled to the restriction "as advertised" when you bought your ticket.

 

[will1337]

Not entirely relevant but looking them up they are valid on any train on weekends and bank holidays which is quite a surprise!

 

[Mojo]

Not entirely relevant but looking them up they are valid on any train on weekends and bank holidays which is quite a surprise!

Yeah that's what I said in the thread about Virgin & Chiltern - it's a great value ticket, probably second only to £1 fares on Megatrain [stn]BHM[/stn]/[stn]BHI[/stn] to [stn]EUS[/stn] (operated by Virgin).

 

[tony_mac]

I had a reply from London Midland - they say that it is valid for a journey that commences before 16:30, even if there is a connection afterwards.

As this is not what the online ticketing sites say, I think that I will print this off and take it with me, just in case.

 

[glynn80]

I had a reply from London Midland - they say that it is valid for a journey that commences before 16:30, even if there is a connection afterwards.

As this is not what the online ticketing sites say, I think that I will print this off and take it with me, just in case.

That is correct as stated in the Staff FRPP (Online fares manual which replaced the NFM).

The Super Off Peak Return has validity code LK

Validity Code- LK

Mondays to Fridays
Not valid for travel on London Midland services timed to ARRIVE London Terminals before 1300.

Not valid for travel on northbound London Midland services timed to DEPART London Terminals or any other station, before 1030.

Not valid for travel on London Midland services timed to DEPART any station between 1630 and 1930 in either direction unless a connecting service is being used to complete a journey begun at a valid time.

Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays
By any London Midland train.

So deciphering for the evening peak, that would mean that holding a ticket between Crewe and London you would have to leave Crewe before 16:30 or after 19:30. That however would not prevent you boarding a London Midland service at say Northampton at 17:30 towards Euston which you had changed onto from a service that left Crewe before the 16:30 deadline.

An example of a journey valid with the latter point would be

16:22 CRE- BHM 17:19
17:33 BHM- NMP 18:34
18:50 NMP- EUS 19:49

The journey from Northampton to Euston at 18:50 arriving 19:49 is in fact the 16:33 service from Crewe anyway, so leaving 11 minutes earlier allows you to purchase the £20.00 Super Off Peak Return.

 

[tony_mac]

Yes, that's what I thought.

But, all of the online ticketing sites disagree. The journey you mention is shown as not valid for a Super Off Peak Return.

Even the following journey is shown as invalid (using londonmidland's own site)
14:22 CRE -BHM 15:19
15:33 BHM-NMP 16:34
16:50 NMP-EUS 17:49

As we don't have access to the Staff FRPP, and London Midland don't publish the rules, I wanted to check which is correct.