Super Off Peak rtn time validity out of Kings Cross vs St Pancras

[WesternLancer]

Hi - if anyone can clarify it would help me. I have Rtn Super Off Peak Nottingham to Uckfield and I want to use the return portion (northbound) out of Kings Cross on a weekday afternoon (monday to thursday).

The any permitted route would permit north from St Pancras and north from Kings Cross via Grantham.

The fare is set by EMR - who seem to state not valid 15.35 to 18.46 (from London),

BUT LNER have an earlier Super OP afternoon cut off time I think of 14.59.

Does the EMR set time permit use from Kings Cross a bit later (eg after 15.00 and before 15.35) or does LNER impose another time restriction on top as it were?

Thanks in advance.

PS travel for me later in the eve when Super Off Peak becomes valid again is not possible for me due to required time of arrival at destination on the trip in question.

 

[Bletchleyite]

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=NOT&dest=UCK&rte=200&ldn=1&tkt=SSR

Curiously the text of the restriction applies no restrictions whatsoever from Kings Cross. However this is probably an omission - you could potentially argue the toss on it but you might not get very far.

What is implemented in the electronic restrictions on the return half is:
Not valid to depart LONDON KINGS CROSS 0300–0905 on any TOC

plus, with lots of weird date restrictions which do leave some very small gaps of the odd day or two for some reason (possibly a cack-handed way of implementing no restriction on Fridays, but it seems to catch the odd Wednesday and Thursday too):
Not valid to depart LONDON KINGS CROSS 1458–1858 on any TOC

So stricter than St P I'm afraid.

 

[cactustwirly]

Hi - if anyone can clarify it would help me. I have Rtn Super Off Peak Nottingham to Uckfield and I want to use the return portion (northbound) out of Kings Cross on a weekday afternoon (monday to thursday).

The any permitted route would permit north from St Pancras and north from Kings Cross via Grantham.

The fare is set by EMR - who seem to state not valid 15.35 to 18.46 (from London),

BUT LNER have an earlier Super OP afternoon cut off time I think of 14.59.

Does the EMR set time permit use from Kings Cross a bit later (eg after 15.00 and before 15.35) or does LNER impose another time restriction on top as it were?

Thanks in advance.

PS travel for me later in the eve when Super Off Peak becomes valid again is not possible for me due to required time of arrival at destination on the trip in question.

You can use this ticket before 1535, 'LNERs' Super Off Peak rules do not apply to this ticket as it's set by EMR, and the restriction code clearly states 1535.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can use this ticket before 1535, 'LNERs' Super Off Peak rules do not apply to this ticket as it's set by EMR, and the restriction code clearly states 1535.

If you read the text there are no restrictions out of Kings Cross whatsoever.(Edit: yes there are, it refers to 1L which I missed). However the electronic restrictions apply LNER's standard times.

Speaking practically, I suspect this would be a defence in Court if prosecuted for doing it and refusing to pay an excess, but it'd have to go that far before it was of any use. (Edit: in light of the above probably not!)

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for those replies, esp Bletchlyite link etc.

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=NOT&dest=UCK&rte=200&ldn=1&tkt=SSR

Which includes
Sun 27 Oct 2019 Sat 21 Dec 2019 Mo Tu We Th
Not valid to depart STEVENAGE 1508–1908 on any TOC
Not valid to depart LONDON KINGS CROSS 1458–1858 on any TOC

which seems to potentially conflict with the entry here
http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=NOT&dest=UCK

SUPER OFFPEAK R
SSR Route
✠VIA LONDON Validity
AS ADVERTISED
Restrictions
CI SUPER OFF-PEAK
Adult £83.50
Outward: VALID TO ARRIVE INTO LONDON AFTER 1130 MON-FRI
Return: VALID M-F 1005-1534 & 1847-0015.
Fare Setter: EAST MIDLANDS RAILWAY

Which confuses me......

But implies LNER are seeking to restrict to their 14.58 departure cut off on this ticket and I expect other similar ones. (14.57 I think actually as last minute of use). I assume this C1 applies to lots of Super OP's out of London that originate beyond London as it were?

 

[WesternLancer]

If you read the text there are no restrictions out of Kings Cross whatsoever. However the electronic restrictions apply LNER's standard times.

Speaking practically, I suspect this would be a defence in Court if prosecuted for doing it and refusing to pay an excess, but it'd have to go that far before it was of any use.

Yes, so given the electronic outputs do not generate it, one would not get an itinerary that showed it which would help in any 'discussions' with staff on board etc

 

[30907]

You can use this ticket before 1535, 'LNERs' Super Off Peak rules do not apply to this ticket as it's set by EMR, and the restriction code clearly states 1535.

But the cross-reference to 1L equally clearly states 1459 for London Terminals, which is what the electronic restrictions apply.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But the cross-reference to 1L equally clearly states 1459 for London Terminals, which is what the electronic restrictions apply.

Ah, I missed the 1L reference, that does explain why.

The summary line is often oversimplified because there are only about 100 chars to play with (if that).

 

[Starmill]

The relevant restrictions are here:

...
Journeys to London Kings Cross and Stevenage please use restriction 1L
...

www.nationalrail.co.uk/CI

Return Travel
Not valid on trains timed to depart:

• London Terminals (except as shown below) after 02:59 and before 09:06 and after 14:59 and before 18:59 (18:15 on Fridays);

www.nationalrail.co.uk/1L

Of course, if you were told something different with regards to the times you may travel using your ticket at the time when you bought the ticket, for example on the same website, or at a ticket office, then that would replace all of the above information as pertinent to your contract under that ticket. LNER might dislike that, but that would be the factual position.

As a random aside, I have always thought that it is absolutely crackers that LNER bar such early afternoon times. For passengers travelling to Leeds they must be at the station in time to use the 1433 - at least from London Euston, Manchester-bound passengers can use the 1440 and 1500 departures. Restrictions on Friday afternoons are also pretty ridiculous - the 1819 from KGX is in terrible condition on Fridays as a result.

 

[JB_B]

The mapping from restriction CI to restriction 1L isn't made particularly obvious to the general public

"In addition:Journeys to London Kings Cross and Stevenage please use restriction 1L."

( from: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/63018.aspx )

If applicable it should be made clear that the 1L restriction applies for journeys via Kings Cross.

 

[WesternLancer]

The mapping from restriction CI to restriction 1L isn't made particularly obvious to the general public

"In addition:Journeys to London Kings Cross and Stevenage please use restriction 1L."

( from: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/63018.aspx )

If applicable it should be made clear that the 1L restriction applies for journeys via Kings Cross.

Thanks all for info - much appreciated. ref JB_B's point, wasn't there once a time (late BR era and early years of TOCs, eg when this would have been a 'low saver'?) when if your ticket originated beyond the northbound london terminal of inter city departure these restrictions did not apply, or am I making that up / misremembering?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks all for info - much appreciated. ref JB_B's point, wasn't there once a time (late BR era and early years of TOCs, eg when this would have been a 'low saver'?) when if your ticket originated beyond the northbound london terminal of inter city departure these restrictions did not apply, or am I making that up / misremembering?

The "Network Rule", which isn't really a rule but is just how the restrictions are, mean the "local" leg - in this case between Uckfield and London - carries no restrictions.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks all for info - much appreciated. ref JB_B's point, wasn't there once a time (late BR era and early years of TOCs, eg when this would have been a 'low saver'?) when if your ticket originated beyond the northbound london terminal of inter city departure these restrictions did not apply, or am I making that up / misremembering?

It's a bit like that yes; there should be no restrictions between London and Uckfield on this ticket using the Network Area rule principle.

 

[WesternLancer]

ah yes, that's probably what I was confusing it with.