Supermarket analogy (split from: Did not buy a ticket at Runcorn)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Antman

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2013
Messages
6,842
That's not a defence I'm afraid. It's a bit like arguing that you didn't pay for your sandwich at the supermarket because you were in a rush.

That isn't a defence but the supermarket comparison is ridiculous.

If you don't like the checkout queue in Sainsburys you can go to Tesco, Asda etc for your sandwich, you don't have that option on the railway!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

455driver

Veteran Member
Joined
10 May 2010
Messages
11,332
That isn't a defence but the supermarket comparison is ridiculous.

If you don't like the checkout queue in Sainsburys you can go to Tesco, Asda etc for your sandwich, you don't have that option on the railway!

So you are saying you can pick a sandwich up in Sainsburys and because of a long queue at the checkout you can walk across to Tescos and pay for it! :lol:
 

Antman

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2013
Messages
6,842
So you are saying you can pick a sandwich up in Sainsburys and because of a long queue at the checkout you can walk across to Tescos and pay for it! :lol:

Well I'm sure Tesco won't mind, every little helps and all that:lol:
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
6,977
That isn't a defence but the supermarket comparison is ridiculous.

If you don't like the checkout queue in Sainsburys you can go to Tesco, Asda etc for your sandwich, you don't have that option on the railway!

But you do have the option of:

a) buying a ticket and catching the next train - three per hour much of the day;
b) catching one of the bus routes which would also take you to Liverpool (X1, 79C or 82A I think).
 

CheesyChips

Member
Joined
18 Jun 2015
Messages
217
The only reason was she was in a rush as the train was pulling up.

That's not a defence I'm afraid. It's a bit like arguing that you didn't pay for your sandwich at the supermarket because you were in a rush.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
55,125
Location
Yorkshire
I don't think analogy debates are helpful in threads for the specific purpose of giving advise to someone who is involved in a dispute.

I've spit the analogy into this new thread, so the original thread can remain factual.
That's not a defence I'm afraid. It's a bit like arguing that you didn't pay for your sandwich at the supermarket because you were in a rush.
That's not the right analogy.

I'm not sure analogies are helpful here? Analogies can be comical but they don't help us with serious debates.

But if you want a reasonably correct analogy, you'd need to go with something like this...

You can enter most cafes and consume an item before paying for it, but at some cafes you must pay first.

Passengers will be legitimately boarding trains at most* stations without having an opportunity to pay for a ticket before boarding (at some stations it depends which company you are travelling with). Even if you do board without first buying a ticket where facilities are available, you will - in many cases - only be charged no more than the fare you would have otherwise paid.

So it's not surprising some people are very surprised when they are asked to pay more than they'd expect. However it is correct and the £20 should have been paid in the first place.

* There are about 2,500 stations, most of which do not have ticket offices. While a significant proportion of these will have ticket machines, there will still people people boarding trains without tickets legitimately from those stations, because no machine accepts all payment methods.
 

Bungle965

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
2 Jul 2014
Messages
2,691
Location
Blackley and Broughton/ Walsall South
I don't think analogy debates are helpful in threads for the specific purpose of giving advise to someone who is involved in a dispute.

I've spit the analogy into this new thread, so the original thread can remain factual.

That's not the right analogy.

I'm not sure analogies are helpful here? Analogies can be comical but they don't help us with serious debates.

But if you want a reasonably correct analogy, you'd need to go with something like this...

You can enter most cafes and consume an item before paying for it, but at some cafes you must pay first.

Passengers will be legitimately boarding trains at most* stations without having an opportunity to pay for a ticket before boarding (at some stations it depends which company you are travelling with). Even if you do board without first buying a ticket where facilities are available, you will - in many cases - only be charged no more than the fare you would have otherwise paid.

So it's not surprising some people are very surprised when they are asked to pay more than they'd expect. However it is correct and the £20 should have been paid in the first place.

* There are about 2,500 stations, most of which do not have ticket offices. While a significant proportion of these will have ticket machines, there will still people people boarding trains without tickets legitimately from those stations, because no machine accepts all payment methods.

Does not help when TOC`s such as Northern Rail are ripping out the old ticket machines (small and medium stations only) which accept cash and card, and are replacing them with ones which accept only card! :roll:
Sam
 

me123

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2007
Messages
8,517
That isn't a defence but the supermarket comparison is ridiculous.

If you don't like the checkout queue in Sainsburys you can go to Tesco, Asda etc for your sandwich, you don't have that option on the railway!

Yes you do have options though, in the vast majority of circumstances. You can walk, drive, take a bus, take a plane, cycle, take a taxi, hitchhike... The railway is rarely (if ever) the only way to travel between two points.

In the analogy, the "sandwich" is not a specific train journey, but travel between two points. And whilst the majority of rail journeys do not have direct rail based competition, there is competition from other modes of transport.
 

CheesyChips

Member
Joined
18 Jun 2015
Messages
217
Whilst the analogy I made was never meant to be interpreted as some kind of Socratic wisdom, I thought it might resonate with the OP insofar that it may explain why being late is not a defence for just consuming a service on ones own terms.

It was an analogy pertaining ONLY to the concept of running late being a defence. Given that the OP's initial post looked like it was going in the direction that they would try to mount a defence, I merely tried to draw parallels with situations the OP may be more familiar with.

Wow! I didn't think I'd have to explain that.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
55,125
Location
Yorkshire
Whilst the analogy I made was never meant to be interpreted as some kind of Socratic wisdom, I thought it might resonate with the OP insofar that it may explain why being late is not a defence for just consuming a service on ones own terms.
Yes but the OP isn't going to equate it to leaving a shop with a sandwich without paying as the OP never intended to leave the railway without paying.
It was an analogy pertaining ONLY to the concept of running late being a defence. Given that the OP's initial post looked like it was going in the direction that they would try to mount a defence, I merely tried to draw parallels with situations the OP may be more familiar with.

Wow! I didn't think I'd have to explain that.
Sorry but an analogy like that aint gonna be got away with on here ;)
 

Agent_c

Member
Joined
22 Jan 2015
Messages
934
That isn't a defence but the supermarket comparison is ridiculous.

If you don't like the checkout queue in Sainsburys you can go to Tesco, Asda etc for your sandwich, you don't have that option on the railway!

Sure you do. You catch the bus, or a private hire, or take your car, or ask someone else to take you.

"Railway" is not the product "Transport from here to there" is.
 

Antman

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2013
Messages
6,842
Sure you do. You catch the bus, or a private hire, or take your car, or ask someone else to take you.

"Railway" is not the product "Transport from here to there" is.

Well it obviously depends on location and circumstances but if you arrive at a station in plenty of time but cannot purchase a ticket because there are inadequate facilities provided.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Does not help when TOC`s such as Northern Rail are ripping out the old ticket machines (small and medium stations only) which accept cash and card, and are replacing them with ones which accept only card! :roll:
Sam

Southeastern have done that as well at some locations
 

Darandio

Established Member
Joined
24 Feb 2007
Messages
9,722
Location
Redcar
Well it obviously depends on location and circumstances but if you arrive at a station in plenty of time but cannot purchase a ticket because there are inadequate facilities provided.

Which wasn't the case in the thread from which this one was split.

Given you are replying to a post that quotes your post, which was originally part of the original thread, it makes that fact irrelevant.
 

miami

Established Member
Joined
3 Oct 2015
Messages
3,016
Location
UK
Perhaps if supermarkets received a £5 billion a year subsidy the analogy would be closer
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Does not help when TOC`s such as Northern Rail are ripping out the old ticket machines (small and medium stations only) which accept cash and card, and are replacing them with ones which accept only card! :roll:
Sam

Which makes sense, no need to empty the cash box, lower chances of vandalism.

It also means that they really need to ensure adequate on-train ticket purchase facilities to avoid the Victoria mess.

If they have a small unstaffed 2 platform station, with card-only machines on both platforms, and someone wishes to pay with cash, is it really fair that if there's a single cash or permit to travel machine hidden away on the opposite platform that people are open to having a recorded conviction in a criminal court?
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
24,771
Location
Scotland
If they have a small unstaffed 2 platform station, with card-only machines on both platforms, and someone wishes to pay with cash, is it really fair that if there's a single cash or permit to travel machine hidden away on the opposite platform that people are open to having a recorded conviction in a criminal court?
Are Northern installing permit to travel machines?
 

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,387
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
. . . .

If they have a small unstaffed 2 platform station, with card-only machines on both platforms, and someone wishes to pay with cash, is it really fair that if there's a single cash or permit to travel machine hidden away on the opposite platform that people are open to having a recorded conviction in a criminal court?
Where's your 'supermarket analogy' here?

Do you mean to say that if you use the self-scan checkouts in Morrisons and wish to pay in cash but find that the only till able to accept cash is "hidden away" at the opposite end of the store, then a customer not paying at all for goods aken away will not be "open to having a recorded conviction in a criminal court" ?

Or are the railways the same as supermarkets in your analogy?
 

aformeruser

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
30,636
That isn't a defence but the supermarket comparison is ridiculous.

If you don't like the checkout queue in Sainsburys you can go to Tesco, Asda etc for your sandwich, you don't have that option on the railway!

Agreed. I can't believe how many people keep insisting on making supermarket analogies. It doesn't work for the following reasons:
1. What opportunities are there to pay for your items after you leave the supermarket?
2. Are there unstaffed supermarkets where you can't pay before you leave?
3. Do supermarkets have restricted leaving times, whereby if you miss the doors opening at 12:00 you have to wait until 13:00 to leave?

With a station ticket office/post office counter analogy in another thread I think making a comparison between a ticket and a letter/parcel is a much better analogy. You can post a letter without paying for it but the recipient will have to pay a much higher rate if they want to accept it or it might get through the system unnoticed, while you can buy the wrong service (just like on the railways) and it could be a member of staff incorrectly advises you about which is right service and you finish up buying a more expensive product than the one you need (just like on the railways.)
 

miami

Established Member
Joined
3 Oct 2015
Messages
3,016
Location
UK
Agreed. I can't believe how many people keep insisting on making supermarket analogies. It doesn't work for the following reasons:
1. What opportunities are there to pay for your items after you leave the supermarket?
2. Are there unstaffed supermarkets where you can't pay before you leave?
3. Do supermarkets have restricted leaving times, whereby if you miss the doors opening at 12:00 you have to wait until 13:00 to leave?

With a station ticket office/post office counter analogy in another thread I think making a comparison between a ticket and a letter/parcel is a much better analogy. You can post a letter without paying for it but the recipient will have to pay a much higher rate if they want to accept it or it might get through the system unnoticed, while you can buy the wrong service (just like on the railways) and it could be a member of staff incorrectly advises you about which is right service and you finish up buying a more expensive product than the one you need (just like on the railways.)

That's a much better analogy. The introduction of "large" and "small" stamps too, to add confusion.

The worst case in the mail is your letter is not delivered, and is instead returned to sender. So the extend that, someone boarding a train without a ticket should be given the choice of

1) Paying more for a ticket on arrival - a "handling fee to cover the cost of processing and handling an joruney where insufficient tickets have been bought"
2) Returning the passenger directly to their point of origin. For free.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Are Northern installing permit to travel machines?

There used to be machines on the network in the north west where you put some coins in and got a piece of paper. Have they all been removed?
 

Haywain

Established Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
6,338
So the extend that, someone boarding a train without a ticket should be given the choice of

1) Paying more for a ticket on arrival - a "handling fee to cover the cost of processing and handling an joruney where insufficient tickets have been bought"
You mean like being issued a Penalty Fare? Isn't that where this all started?
 

TheEdge

Established Member
Joined
29 Nov 2012
Messages
3,814
Location
Norwich
1) Paying more for a ticket on arrival - a "handling fee to cover the cost of processing and handling an joruney where insufficient tickets have been bought"

Yea, it could be £20 or double the single fare to discourage abuse of the system. Good idea. :roll:
 

robbeech

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2015
Messages
3,614
2) Returning the passenger directly to their point of origin. For free.

I think that would be excellent, i regularly travel places just to come back again on the next service without leaving the station, as do lots of us here.

:)
 

aformeruser

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
30,636
1) Paying more for a ticket on arrival - a "handling fee to cover the cost of processing and handling an joruney where insufficient tickets have been bought"

I sent an item 'recorded delivery' the other day and went on to the RM site to check it and noticed a link on the homepage saying "Our new fee to pay surcharges" http://www.royalmail.com/personal/help-and-support/new-pay-a-fee-surcharges

It appears under this new system if you don't pay any of the £2.80 for a 2nd class small parcel the sender has to pay a whole £3 to get the item delivered!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think that would be excellent, i regularly travel places just to come back again on the next service without leaving the station, as do lots of us here.

:)

Maybe a photographing/videoing/writing down train numbers charge needs to be introduced as well then. ;)
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top