Suspicious packages.

[Oswyntail]

Passing through Leeds station on New Year's Eve at 18:30, I spotted what, to me, was a suspicious package. It was a pale grey laptop case that was propped up against the bottom of a set of railings (by Platform 2). I cannot imagine why anyone would actually leave such an object in such a place and then forget it.
There was a group of station staff nearby, and I went over and pointed it out. One said that it looked like a laptop, went over, picked it up, opened it and confirmed it was, indeed, a laptop. He then took it over to the NR office.
Am I right to be a tad surprised? Is this the recommended way to handle suspicious packages? Do staff take such reports seriously?

 

[Tubeboy]

On the tube we use the HOT procedure. Hidden, is it obviously suspicious, and is it typical of what's found left lying round. No, no and yes in this example.

 

[Carntyne]

Yep, as above. The HOT protocol is the usual way of dealing with unattended items. Sounds like they've followed it here.

 

[EM2]

Am I right to be a tad surprised? Is this the recommended way to handle suspicious packages? Do staff take such reports seriously?

Yes, yes and yes.
The staff did exactly what they should have done, and that *was* them taking the report seriously.
If, however, when they'd opened the bag they had not found a laptop, but something altogether more dangerous, then things would have been very different after that point.
Having said that, they shouldn't really have picked it up, but opened it where it was, just in case.

 

[BestWestern]

There is no definitive way of knowing whether something is going to explode if you pick it up. Like most of the anti-terrorism measures that happen 'on the street', it is a simple game of probability and luck. If it doesn't appear suspicious, check it out and hope it doesn't go off in your face, essentially.

Of course, the fact that most terrorists are probably intelligent enough to realise this and act accordingly, is another matter...

 

[deltic1989]

I found a suspicious package at an un-staffed station several years ago. It appeared to me to be a large box covered with blankets, left in the corner of the platform shelter.
Thinking it looked funny I immediately called the Police.
When the officer attended he pulled back the blanket to reveal not a box as I suspected but a couple of computer towers.
It turned out that the towers had been stolen in a burglary the previous night, and left in the shelter by the theives for them to pick up later.
When I heard this I felt vindicated in calling the Police, it wasn't a bomb, but it was technically suspicious and my actions returned stolen property to it's rightful owner.

I was quite apologetic to the Constable when we finally found out the nature of the package, but he would have none of it, and told me that I had done exactly the right thing.

 

[Antman]

Passing through Leeds station on New Year's Eve at 18:30, I spotted what, to me, was a suspicious package. It was a pale grey laptop case that was propped up against the bottom of a set of railings (by Platform 2). I cannot imagine why anyone would actually leave such an object in such a place and then forget it.
There was a group of station staff nearby, and I went over and pointed it out. One said that it looked like a laptop, went over, picked it up, opened it and confirmed it was, indeed, a laptop. He then took it over to the NR office.
Am I right to be a tad surprised? Is this the recommended way to handle suspicious packages? Do staff take such reports seriously?

I found a backpack in the waiting room at East Croydon recently, I just picked it up and handed it to a member of staff, I mean the chances of it being anything sinister must be pretty slim and if you evacuated the station everytime something like this occurred.............

 

[40129]

The whole problem with unattended packages is that you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

As Antman implied we'd have absolute chaos if every unattended backpack triggered an evacuation, but what if one of those backpacks contains a bomb? Even the HOT procedure is not foolproof in this respect.

As has been the case for many years, how such packages are dealt with and the outcome will continue to be down to instinct / gut feeling and luck.

 

[lightning76]

Back in the 90's I was driving a bus in central London when pax made me aware of an unattended suitcase. At the time we were told "Samsonite" suitcases were a favourite of the IRA. After following procedure, evacuating pax to more than 50m away, calling police from a telephone box (mobiles being thought to detonate devices) etc, a panda car turned up, in no particular hurry. The copper tapped the suitcase, pressed his ear to it, then opened it and poked about in it, before declaring it innocent. It did surprise me a little at the time that it didn't seem to be taken particularly seriously.

I was hoping for the bus to be blown up in a controlled explosion, but no such luck. I had to drive the bloody thing back to Putney, where I was moaned at by the controllers for causing lost mileage.

 

[40129]

I remember when I was working on the subway and was asked by the supervisor to check ne next northbound train for some lost property. I found a backpack in a vestibule and using HOT decided it was okay - I also had a gut feeling that although it didn't match the description it was the lost item. The supervisor was not impressed and said I should have had the bomb squad called. However, 5 mins later the passengers who had lost property turned up and identified it as their missing bag - cue silence from supervisor.

 

[EM2]

I found a backpack in the waiting room at East Croydon recently, I just picked it up and handed it to a member of staff, I mean the chances of it being anything sinister must be pretty slim and if you evacuated the station everytime something like this occurred.............

The problem is when it is something sinister. If you pick it up, and it has a tilt switch...

 

[Master29]

I would have done exactly what you did. Let`s face it. If the words "If you see any suspicious packages or bags please alert a member of staff" don`t register with you then you obviously never use public transport. For good reason of course.

 

[Antman]

I would have done exactly what you did. Let`s face it. If the words "If you see any suspicious packages or bags please alert a member of staff" don`t register with you then you obviously never use public transport. For good reason of course.

And how do you define suspicious?

 

[EM2]

And how do you define suspicious?

It doesn't matter how you define it, if you think it is suspicious, then report it. Staff would rather that you tell them and it turns out to be nothing.

 

[Greenback]

I would report it and leave it to staff who will likely have had more training in what to do than me. I can't remember the training I had on suspicious package sin the Royal Mail 20 years ago, and even if I could it would probably be well out of date now, so I think it's much better to leave it to people who I hope know more than me!

 

[ComUtoR]

And how do you define suspicious?

By using the HOT procedure

 

[Oswyntail]

By using the HOT procedure

The "O" bit is really subjective though. Gone are the days when anarchists left black spheres, fuse fizzing, with "BOMB" written on them. And the "H" and "T" bits are also open to interpretation. If I were trying to plant something, I would want to make it look as casual as possible, "accidentally" leaving a normal object behind.
That said, there is no way of handling situations other than through gut feeling, and I admire the people who have to make those judgements

 

[Antman]

By using the HOT procedure

So if it's not hidden it's safe? Hardly foolproof is it although obviously the vast majority are nothing sinister

 

[Llanigraham]

So if it's not hidden it's safe? Hardly foolproof is it although obviously the vast majority are nothing sinister

Blimey this is hard work!!
You do not take just one letter of the acronym, you take all 3 into account and action ALL 3 together.
So:
Is it HIDDEN?
and
Is it OBVIOUS?
and
Is it TYPICAL?
:roll::roll:

 

[A-driver]

So if it's not hidden it's safe? Hardly foolproof is it although obviously the vast majority are nothing sinister

You have a problem with taking things too literally and failing to understand the reason things are done. HOT just gives a basis of weather the location should be evacuated or the item taken to lost property.

If you see an unattended suitcase on a luggage rack of a train then it's not hidden, it's not obviously suspect and it's very typical. Therefore the chances of it being a bomb are low and most staff will think nothing more of it that someone's forgotten their bag-a daily occurance for most staff.

If staff doing a station patrol notice a bag strap hanging out a usually locked cupboard, open it to find a bag squashed inside with a wire poking out the top and some liquid seeping out the bottom then it's definitely hidden, there are obvious suspicious signs and it's definitely not typical of the location. Therefore they are more likely to call the police and leave it to them.

It's rare to find an unattended bag in a place you would class as 'hidden'.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The "O" bit is really subjective though. Gone are the days when anarchists left black spheres, fuse fizzing, with "BOMB" written on them. And the "H" and "T" bits are also open to interpretation. If I were trying to plant something, I would want to make it look as casual as possible, "accidentally" leaving a normal object behind.

That said, there is no way of handling situations other than through gut feeling, and I admire the people who have to make those judgements

Of course it's subjective-the whole thing is and it serves as an aid only. By obvious they don't mean 'does it have bomb written on it', they mean does it look like someone's got on a train and left their laptop bag behind or does it look like the laptop bag has been tampered with and isn't a normal laptop bag-liquid driving out of it, unusual noises or smells, a bulge in the side which dosnt look normal etc.

 

[Antman]

Blimey this is hard work!!
You do not take just one letter of the acronym, you take all 3 into account and action ALL 3 together.
So:
Is it HIDDEN?
and
Is it OBVIOUS?
and
Is it TYPICAL?
:roll::roll:

In other words use your own discretion? See only hard work if you choose to make it so:roll:

 

[A-driver]

In other words use your own discretion? See only hard work if you choose to make it so:roll:

No one said it wasn't about using discretion and experience.

 

[Master29]

And how do you define suspicious?

I was commenting on what the OP did and would have done the same in his shoes. Definitions of suspicious in this case was left alone with no one else around.

 

[Clip]

In other words use your own discretion? See only hard work if you choose to make it so:roll:

^^^^ This sort of thing makes me remember a new recruit we had at the Cross once - all too eager and set up a 10 metre perimeter around a suitcase on the old concourse and then requesting BTP. He didn't get it either.

A quick call on the tannoy and she suddenly came running from BK with food in hand spilling her drink everywhere and was very apologetic.

Im guessing the case in the OP was a place where people congregate on at least stand waiting for their train yes? As A-driver has said - experience tells you more than anything. And to be honest in this day and age people are more likely to do themselves damage whilst trying to blow others up.

 

[island]

I have twice left a suspicious object on trains due to plain stupidity. Once a black hold-all, and once a black wheeled suitcase. Thankfully in each case neither item was exploded, I had alighted the train one station before its terminus, had the presence of mind to remember which coach I was in, and was able to wait at the said station for the train to turn around and come back and position myself on the platform to recover the items without further incident.

 

[ComUtoR]

I have twice left a suspicious object on trains due to plain stupidity.

What you left was luggage. I don't see that as a "suspicious object"

 

[exile]

Ah, a suspicious package - I wonder what it contains.

(opens bag)

BANG!

 

[duffield]

I found a backpack in the waiting room at East Croydon recently, I just picked it up and handed it to a member of staff, I mean the chances of it being anything sinister must be pretty slim and if you evacuated the station everytime something like this occurred.............

This action is *not* advisable. Putting aside the faint possibility of a bomb, there is a much stronger possibility that its owner might return while you were holding it and accuse you of attempting to steal it. No, you won't get convicted on this basis but you might get questioned, arrested even, and possibly end up on a police database. Or the owner might assault you (e.g. you're heading towards the lost property office - which happens to be near the exit - easy for some people to jump to conclusions).

Note that I'm not saying this applies in every case - an umbrella or similar would be reasonable to hand in, but not anything that might be valuable (backpack may contain mobile/laptop/wallet etc.). Common sense applies.

 

[BestWestern]

This action is *not* advisable. Putting aside the faint possibility of a bomb, there is a much stronger possibility that its owner might return while you were holding it and accuse you of attempting to steal it. No, you won't get convicted on this basis but you might get questioned, arrested even, and possibly end up on a police database. Or the owner might assault you (e.g. you're heading towards the lost property office - which happens to be near the exit - easy for some people to jump to conclusions).

Note that I'm not saying this applies in every case - an umbrella or similar would be reasonable to hand in, but not anything that might be valuable (backpack may contain mobile/laptop/wallet etc.). Common sense applies.

I disagree. Passengers are told, relentlessly at every opportunity, not to leave things unattended. Any sort of bag or package is quite obviously at the top of the worry list. Anybody who ignores that and leaves something lying around, intentionally or otherwise, should accept that said item may not simply be left where it is to greet them on their return. A bag left sat by itself at a busy railway station is fair game for either railway staff, the police or a cautiously minded passenger to take action against.

 

[exile]

I disagree. Passengers are told, relentlessly at every opportunity, not to leave things unattended. Any sort of bag or package is quite obviously at the top of the worry list. Anybody who ignores that and leaves something lying around, intentionally or otherwise, should accept that said item may not simply be left where it is to greet them on their return. A bag left sat by itself at a busy railway station is fair game for either railway staff, the police or a cautiously minded passenger to take action against.

Certainly, at the height of the IRA bombing campaign, any sort of unattended bag was immediately regarded as suspicious. I guess today's terrorists tend to use different tactics.