sussexspotter's opinions on XC service to Bath, and freight loco liveries

[SussexSpotter]

If I was looking to hire a FOC to move some freight for me the first thing I would look at would be price!
The second would be reputation.

As for what colour the loco is, I couldnt give 2 shakes of a donkies whatsit as long as the train gets there on time and on budget.

Your missing the point completly, that's just your opinion for a start and doesn't reflect the views of all potential freight customers. I've given my views on what would first attract me to a freight haulier, and would stand out to me, and you've given yours. So therefore their way of doing things doesn't appeal to everyone. I'm not wrong about what i'm saying as I too would look at the things you've suggested i.e price and reputation, as that would help make me make my decison and are also very important to decide on who i'd want to move my freight/goods, but what you've got to understand is it's first impression in the business world and image. Multi billion pound company's like DB Schenker who cannot be bothered to rebrand their fleet quickly to establish their identity, gives a wrong impression. Their price maybe good and their reputation maybe good, but if the first impression draws away some customers to say GBRf or Freightliner, then they loose out. As I say the non-essential things can 'SOMETIMES' make all the difference.....not to everyone but to some. It's therefore professional of a business to attract all it's possible customers and give a good impression with a well established identity. If they are that worried about taking loco's out of service as they will have a smaller fleet or for other reasons it's not difficult to put a large DB logo sticker over the EWS one. Probably only takes a few minutes if that!

 

[KA4C]

Which is the reason it was put in apparently....I wondered when it would get mentioned !

Apparently that is the case
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Your missing the point completly, that's just your opinion for a start and doesn't reflect the views of all potential freight customers.

Are you in the rail freight business?

I can tell you that for the vast majority of rail freight customers it is cost that is the main factor with reliability after that. They don't care how the operator moves their goods, as long as it is cheap enough and fairly reliable. Look at some of the things road hauliers get up to, the customer is not worried about loss reputation by association there, so I don't think that what is painted on the side of a loco matters to them one jot

 

[tbtc]

Talk about how to cause confusion, any potential passenger looking at that map will think that Cross Country don't serve it so will look at travelling with another TOC instead

I get the impression that if you are wanting an early train from Bath to Bristol you'll take the first one that turns up.

I'm sure there are other examples (does Derby appear on the Northern map?)

Regardless of ORCATS/ senior members of staff (etc) it seems a reasonable use of stock at a time when it isn't being used elsewhere (and before FGW provide a service on that line in the morning).

GBRf seem to cracking on with the rebranding/repainting though, they even repainted one of the Metronet 66's into that rainbow livery. What I find so ridiculous is how DBS wasted money repainting those Class 37's.

So you're criticising DB for spending lots of money on repainting 37s , but also, erm, criticising DB for not spending money on updating their XC maps to show one train a day?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Your missing the point completly, that's just your opinion for a start and doesn't reflect the views of all potential freight customers. I've given my views on what would first attract me to a freight haulier, and would stand out to me, and you've given yours. So therefore their way of doing things doesn't appeal to everyone. I'm not wrong about what i'm saying as I too would look at the things you've suggested i.e price and reputation, as that would help make me make my decison and are also very important to decide on who i'd want to move my freight/goods, but what you've got to understand is it's first impression in the business world and image. Multi billion pound company's like DB Schenker who cannot be bothered to rebrand their fleet quickly to establish their identity, gives a wrong impression. Their price maybe good and their reputation maybe good, but if the first impression draws away some customers to say GBRf or Freightliner, then they loose out. As I say the non-essential things can 'SOMETIMES' make all the difference.....not to everyone but to some. It's therefore professional of a business to attract all it's possible customers and give a good impression with a well established identity. If they are that worried about taking loco's out of service as they will have a smaller fleet or for other reasons it's not difficult to put a large DB logo sticker over the EWS one. Probably only takes a few minutes if that!

I very strongly doubt that FOCs bother one iota about whose name is on the side of the locos, and those are the only people that matter in such an issue, not what you and I and any other poster would do. I'm sure that if DBS thought that the continuation of the EWS brand was hindering business then they would change the liveries, however this obviously isn't the case.

 

[TEW]

I get the impression that if you are wanting an early train from Bath to Bristol you'll take the first one that turns up.

I'm sure there are other examples (does Derby appear on the Northern map?)

Regardless of ORCATS/ senior members of staff (etc) it seems a reasonable use of stock at a time when it isn't being used elsewhere (and before FGW provide a service on that line in the morning).

The stock used to be better used, instead of running from Bath Spa it used to start at Bristol and run via Gloucester, so Gloucester has lost out on one of it's XC non-Turbostar services.

 

[Eagle]

I'm sure there are other examples (does Derby appear on the Northern map?)

It does (the Northern map is incredibly thorough; it even includes the Halton curve).

 

[SussexSpotter]

Are you in the rail freight business?

I can tell you that for the vast majority of rail freight customers it is cost that is the main factor with reliability after that. They don't care how the operator moves their goods, as long as it is cheap enough and fairly reliable. Look at some of the things road hauliers get up to, the customer is not worried about loss reputation by association there, so I don't think that what is painted on the side of a loco matters to them one jot

Not in the rail freight business just basic common sense to establish identity and remove an old defunct logo (EWS), as I have said DB Schenker (Deutsche Bahn) is a multi-billion pound company which in 2011 had an opperating revenue of £37.9 billion euro's. Pretty sure a bit of paint or the cheaper option of a few stickers wouldn't see them calling in the administrators.

 

[Drsatan]

Not in the rail freight business just basic common sense to establish identity and remove an old defunct logo (EWS), as I have said DB Schenker (Deutsche Bahn) is a multi-billion pound company which in 2011 had an opperating revenue of £37.9 billion euro's. Pretty sure a bit of paint or the cheaper option of a few stickers wouldn't see them calling in the administrators.

It has already been said and I'll say it again: DBS would much rather have as many locos in service as possible in case of locomotive failures, than to pull locomotives out of service just so a transfer can be applied.

Here's a hypothetical example: I want a trainload of oil to be shipped from Milford Haven to Fawley. The locomotive booked to haul the train has failed. If there were no spare locomotives since any spare locomotives were being reliveried (meaning the train had to be cancelled), I'd consider handing the contract over to GBRf.

 

[SussexSpotter]

So you're criticising DB for spending lots of money on repainting 37s , but also, erm, criticising DB for not spending money on updating their XC maps to show one train a day?

Yes because the 37's were some of the first loco's they repainted, hardly saw much mainline use in their new livery before they were eventually put into storage in March 2010, as DB Schenker don't want to use them anymore. Meanwhile their main fleet of 66's and 67's, as well as the 60's are still in the slow process of being repainted/rebranded years later. Any logic there????
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It has already been said and I'll say it again: DBS would much rather have as many locos in service as possible in case of locomotive failures, than to pull locomotives out of service just so a transfer can be applied.

Here's a hypothetical example: I want a trainload of oil to be shipped from Milford Haven to Fawley. The locomotive booked to haul the train has failed. If there were no spare locomotives since any spare locomotives were being reliveried (meaning the train had to be cancelled), I'd consider handing the contract over to GBRf.

Well there's no justification of how much time they've had to put a DB sticker over the old EWS logo, they wouldn't even need to repaint the loco.....I mean for goodness sake. Europorte have even applied their stickers in addition to the old GBRf livery on their loco's, and that was done almost immediatly. Over 3 years for DB Schenker to do it and it's still not done, yet they apply DB stickers over to some of their wagons?????

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dan700/6255182711/

They've had 3 Christmas period's in which to do it when rail freight demand is low and by now the whole fleet could have been done as the simple task of applying a sticker over the top of another logo is both quick and cheap, and takes minutes. It could be done overnight in a TMD for instance. They could then carry out the slow process of proper repaints over time.

 

[route:oxford]

Not in the rail freight business just basic common sense to establish identity and remove an old defunct logo (EWS), as I have said DB Schenker (Deutsche Bahn) is a multi-billion pound company which in 2011 had an opperating revenue of £37.9 billion euro's. Pretty sure a bit of paint or the cheaper option of a few stickers wouldn't see them calling in the administrators.

Tell you what.

Why not write to the German government and demand that they instruct DB Rail to erase all trace of EWS from heritage UK locos?

It's not as if they aren't busy with other things right now.

 

[Eagle]

Over 3 years for DB Schenker to do it and it's still not done, yet they apply DB stickers over to some of their wagons?

I still don't get why you don't realize how trivial and irrelevant what the locos look like is.

 

[SussexSpotter]

I still don't get why you don't realize how trivial and irrelevant what the locos look like is.

Because it's basic common sense to rebrand after a takeover and remove the old company's loco, or put a temporary sticker over the top of the old logo until a proper repaint can be done, I don't see why nobody else see's that

I don't know any other business apart from DB Schenker that is still carrying the old company's logo around years later????

Would you expect to see shops carrying the logo of the previous company if they had been taken over years later.....I mean honestly? :roll:

 

[Eagle]

They're freight companies, not high street stores! All their clients care about is how fast, how cheap and how much they can transport, and they could paint their locos in lime green with pink spots and replace all the logos with pictures of dancing cats and the clients wouldn't give a damn.

I don't know any other business apart from DB Schenker that is still carrying the old company's logo around years later?

NX Coventry has, I'd estimate, rebranded about half of their buses so far from the old Travel Coventry name. The name changed in 2008.

 

[SussexSpotter]

They're freight companies, not high street stores! All their clients care about is how fast, how cheap and how much they can transport, and they could paint their locos in lime green with pink spots and replace all the logos with pictures of dancing cats and the clients wouldn't give a damn.



NX Coventry has, I'd estimate, rebranded about half of their buses so far from the old Travel Coventry name. The name changed in 2008.

I know their freight companies and not High Street stores, I just used it as an example, it's still a business at the end of the day. You seem to be missing the point about how other rail freight companies manage execpt DB Schenker, and they are an even bigger company than all the others with a greater turnover each year. I mean GBRf Europorte could say ''nah we'll just leave the First Group logo on all our fleet, nobody will care.'' But they don't, they quickly removed it with minimum effort and fuss and are now in the process of properly rebranding and repainting their fleet.

Do you not see that other rail freight companies except DB manage to rebrand in whatever way they can and as fast as they can and most of them have smaller fleets????

And as for the NX Coventry buses, half of them......that's still more than DB Schenker have done, and DB Schenker have owned EWS longer than them.

As I say rebranding after a takeover is not essential, but is basic common sense to establish new identity.

 

[Eagle]

Do you not see that other rail freight companies except DB manage to rebrand in whatever way they can and as fast as they can and most of them have smaller fleets????

So? Just because some companies do it doesn't mean it's an unwritten rule.

And your logic is way off. A bigger fleet makes it harder to rebrand, not easier.

 

[fairysdad]

The fact that a very senior member of the AXC management team travels from Bath to Birmingham,daily,seems to have escaped mention.

Yet he somehow needs a daily service without actually going home, it would seem

 

[Eagle]

As I say rebranding after a takeover is not essential...

Correct. And if it's not essential then they are free to not do it if they don't feel the need.

Anyway image is entirely irrelevant in the freight market. As I and others keep saying, all clients care about is reliability and cost. That's the lasting impression. It's not as if a company goes "ooh, I keep seeing these locos that say GBRf on them, they look pretty cool, maybe I'll give them a try?"

 

[SussexSpotter]

So? Just because some companies do it doesn't mean it's an unwritten rule.

And your logic is way off. A bigger fleet makes it harder to rebrand, not easier.

Yeah I know but what is the impression??? Unprofessional, most customers might not give a damn what livery it is in but DB Schenker should care so it attracts new customers and their business can be recognised.

No my logic is not way off, it's quite the opposite. A bigger fleet (some of which are even in storage and could be taken out to compensate), means more loco's available whilst the re-branding is being done, and sticker would take minutes to apply.

Europorte bought GBRf in June 2010 and they are well ahead with the rebranding! DB Schenker bought EWS in 2007 and merged the EWS brand to DB in Jan 2009......and now lets look how far they've come to establishing their identity and making their business look professional to customers.......oh yeah a few wagons, the whole 37 fleet which is now in storage, a few 66's and 67's and a good few 60's. Pretty poor really! Whoever their management is they really don't seem to care less whether the EWS logo gets carried into the next generation, the rate DB Schenker are going I wouldn't be suprised.

 

[Eagle]

...most customers might not give a damn what livery it is in...

So you agree with me then. Good. :P

Stop whining about this incredibly superficial issue. So they haven't gotten round to ordering a few stickers (pretty big ones, given how large EWS wrote their name on their locos)? So what? It's superficial and trivial and makes sod-all difference to their performance and other operations. As long as the locos work...


As for attracting new customers, that is not done by "I saw their logo on a train", it's done by word-of-mouth and a good website!

 

[tbtc]

It does (the Northern map is incredibly thorough; it even includes the Halton curve).

Fair enough - my mistake - it was the first "oddity" I could think of that might not have been on the map

I wonder how many hundreds of people would be attracted to this 06:00 XC service if only it were advertised on the XC map?

 

[MCR247]

DBS IS FREIGHT.

It does not matter what livery the loco is. Tbh on half of the 66s you can barely even see the EWS logo.

You keep mentioning high street stores like that is the same as a freight company. It isn't. They are both businesses. And?! If a 13 year old can can make money selling drinks at school does that mean they could then run First successfully the next week? No. The fact that they are both businesses is irrelevant.

 

[Eagle]

I wonder how many hundreds of people would be attracted to this 06:00 XC service if only it were advertised on the XC map?

Being as most of the through passengers on this train will be people who typed their journey details into a website and went "oh, seems I don't have to change. That's nice." (or the analogue version of this scenario). :P

 

[SussexSpotter]

As for attracting new customers, that is not done by "I saw their logo on a train", it's done by word-of-mouth and a good website!

It's all about advertising

Advertising the old company won't exactly attract DB Schenker much business for them. ''I know i'll seach for EWS to move my freight......oh can't seem to find the website''

I know this is a trival issue non essential but DB Schenker to me come across as a bit arrogant in the sense that they will assume that because they are such a big company people will know that EWS is them......some will some won't

 

[Eagle]

Advertising the old company won't exactly attract DB Schenker much business for them. ''I know i'll seach for EWS to move my freight......oh can't seem to find the website''

Try typing EWS into Google and what's the top result?

Also I suspect that anyone thinking of opening a freight contract has probably heard of all the major FOCs anyway.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It's all about advertising

Advertising the old company won't exactly attract DB Schenker much business for them. ''I know i'll seach for EWS to move my freight......oh can't seem to find the website''

I know this is a trival issue non essential but DB Schenker to me come across as a bit arrogant in the sense that they will assume that because they are such a big company people will know that EWS is them......some will some won't

I just Bing searched EWR. The first result guided me to the DBS website.

I think a company will do extensive research before selecting an operator, which would include finding out if need be who replaced EWR, which in turn would bring DBS to their awareness.

 

[SussexSpotter]

Try typing EWS into Google and what's the top result?

Also I suspect that anyone thinking of opening a freight contract has probably heard of all the major FOCs anyway.

That maybe the case but don't you see that it looks unproffesional that way?

Ok say I owned a business which opperates on an industrial estate in the Midlands, and i'm very unfamiliar with rail freight companies. We currently use road and always have done to move our steel but recently the cost has increased because of the economic downturn and the reliability has decreased of our road freight haulier. There's a few sidings nearby that havn't been used for a long time and i'm thinking of using the disused sidings and getting a rail freight haulier to move the steel instead. My industrial estate is right next to a busy mainline with regular passenger and freight trains running up and down, I often see lots of freight trains hauled by loco's in different liveries, there's the Freightliner loco's that pass by, the GBRf Europorte one's oh and the EWS one's as well. So maybe I should look into these, I search for the Freightliner one and find the website minimum hassel, then I search for the GBRf one and I find that website also with minimum hassel, but when I search the EWS one it comes up with DB Schenker.....hmmm that's odd so on researching more about this DB Schenker I find out that it bought EWS years ago and the 2 companies merged in 2009. So why is it carrying that livery/logo years later I wonder???? First impressions......first impressions

 

[221129]

In fairness it does say 'Please note: Not all stations are shown.'

 

[Eagle]

That maybe the case but don't you see that it looks unproffesional that way?

No it doesn't. This is commonplace. Companies merge, or change their name, all the time. What do you expect, a big sign on their homepage saying "oh yeah we used to be called EWS, sorry for any confusion?" That would look unprofessional.

And as Matt said, you'd probably do a lot more research than that before deciding who to give a contract to. Finding out that DBS bought EWS would take all of ten seconds' research; if I was this steelworking company I'd want to see pages and pages of research reports, with stuff like prices, timings, rolling stock capabilities, reliability stats, and so on. If any company was to approach DBS having done the paucal amount of research that you suggest they'd be laughed out of the building.

You've clearly demonstrated that you know nothing about how the freight and logistics market works. Can you please, for the sake of my sanity, move on?

 

[KA4C]

I mean GBRf Europorte could say ''nah we'll just leave the First Group logo on all our fleet, nobody will care.'' But they don't, they quickly removed it with minimum effort and fuss and are now in the process of properly rebranding and repainting their fleet.

The big difference, that is lost on you, is that First Group still exists in the rail business, Europorte would have been required to re-brand their loco's

As I've already told you, the name EWS still exists and is part of DBS, so there is no urgency to re-brand

Do you really, seriously, think that a company after railfreight haulage goes out about the railways, has a look at a loco and thinks" oh, that's where we'll go"?

And what happens when one FOC hires loco's from another FOC, do you seriously think that their customers have a fit of the vapours over the loco livery?

One last question, do you live in Sherborne by any chance?

 

[The Planner]

Yet he

Missed out the "S".