SW Post-2018 timetable

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Fair enough.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Some of the reasons you may have slightly longer times for combining & dividing trains is they expect the driver to couple up/divide, configure (if applicable) and do the nose end doors (where applicable).

Otherwise, when you couple up/divide, you regain the (or a) leading cab, you then have to do the nose doors (should it be the rear portion), key on, cancel AWS, configure the train via TMS, do the GSM-R, possibly configure the PIS system, do the passenger doors.

There's more to do now and they give you less time to do it, which is asking for mistakes and it doesn't give you any leeway for configuration, TMS, GSM-R, door (nose or passenger), coupler issues to be resolved.

The old slammers didn't have configuration, TMS, GSM-R (it was CSR later on), passenger doors or coupler issues because they were all simple things, you had a buckeye, air pipes & MU jumper to deal with and a good shunter would have them down within 30 or 40 seconds of the BP being vented, MU jumper dropped and put back into the receptacle and be waiting for passengers to finish jumping on/off and the next driver to put his/her key on to do the split or attachment. A quick brake test and away.

 

[30907]

The old slammers didn't have configuration, TMS, GSM-R (it was CSR later on), passenger doors or coupler issues because they were all simple things, you had a buckeye, air pipes & MU jumper to deal with and a good shunter would have them down within 30 or 40 seconds of the BP being vented, MU jumper dropped and put back into the receptacle and be waiting for passengers to finish jumping on/off and the next driver to put his/her key on to do the split or attachment. A quick brake test and away.

Quite. On the SR it was 1.5 minutes for the front portion detaching and 3 minutes for the rear portion to attach (was it less for non gangwayed stock?).

 

[700007]

In the case of the Weymouth trains, I'd ideally have them run non-stop to Winchester, then Southampton Airport, Central, Brockenhurst, Bournemouth, Poole and then all stations to Weymouth except Holton Heath. To compensate the loss of the stop at Woking, I would have the ex-Poole service stop at Woking additionally.

I think it'd also be a good idea to get the Southampton Central stopper service to make an additional stop at Swaythling, as it is quite an upcoming suburb in the north of Southampton, and it is also the closest station to University of Southampton - definitely a good method of increasing footfall provided fares are reasonable and it is promoted well. Although several stations lose a direct service to/from London Waterloo for most of the day, I've managed to find 2 reasonable paths within a one hour slot to try get the So'ton stopper to go up to Brockenhurst calling at Totton and Ashurst (New Forest). It'd only require one extra train which I believe will be a 450 that will be used most of the day on this service (in addition to 450s on the Pompey-Weymouth) service.

Either a train can depart Southampton at around 16 past and arrive at Brockenhurst for 35 past, returning to London at 02 past (stopping at Southampton for 19 past, departing 22 past) OR sit at Southampton as does the current Poole stopping service until about 32 past and not arrive at Brockenhurst until 53 past. Return times to London would still be the same.

 

[nw1]

I think it'd also be a good idea to get the Southampton Central stopper service to make an additional stop at Swaythling, as it is quite an upcoming suburb in the north of Southampton, and it is also the closest station to University of Southampton - definitely a good method of increasing footfall provided fares are reasonable and it is promoted well. Although several stations lose a direct service to/from London Waterloo for most of the day, I've managed to find 2 reasonable paths within a one hour slot to try get the So'ton stopper to go up to Brockenhurst calling at Totton and Ashurst (New Forest). It'd only require one extra train which I believe will be a 450 that will be used most of the day on this service (in addition to 450s on the Pompey-Weymouth) service.

Either a train can depart Southampton at around 16 past and arrive at Brockenhurst for 35 past, returning to London at 02 past (stopping at Southampton for 19 past, departing 22 past) OR sit at Southampton as does the current Poole stopping service until about 32 past and not arrive at Brockenhurst until 53 past. Return times to London would still be the same.

Good idea, Swaythling and St Denys need more of a metro-style service i.e at least 2 an hour. St Denys is getting this which is good, _and_ getting a stop on the additional Portsmouth - just wish they'd done this when I lived in the St Denys area from 2010-16. Whatever else you think of it, this timetable is a big step up for St Denys and I'd bring in Swaythling too.

Totton's also big enough for 2 an hour as long as it's even interval.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Good idea, Swaythling and St Denys need more of a metro-style service i.e at least 2 an hour. St Denys is getting this which is good, _and_ getting a stop on the additional Portsmouth - just wish they'd done this when I lived in the St Denys area from 2010-16. Whatever else you think of it, this timetable is a big step up for St Denys and I'd bring in Swaythling too.

Totton's also big enough for 2 an hour as long as it's even interval.

St Denys always did, the Romsey Rocket & Portsmouth stopper, 1 tph on each route (2 tph), Swaything or Bomb Alley as it used to be known is a menace.

 

[700007]

Good idea, Swaythling and St Denys need more of a metro-style service i.e at least 2 an hour. St Denys is getting this which is good, _and_ getting a stop on the additional Portsmouth - just wish they'd done this when I lived in the St Denys area from 2010-16. Whatever else you think of it, this timetable is a big step up for St Denys and I'd bring in Swaythling too.

Totton's also big enough for 2 an hour as long as it's even interval.

Yeah Totton and St. Deny's are upcoming suburbs at Southampton expands. I've managed to get the trains about 30 minutes apart in one of the paths identified, which would should be a selling point. However in the other path it's about 15 minutes behind the Pompey service then a 45 minutes gap afterwards. However the selling point was that the train would connect better at Brockenhurst, 7 minutes for those going on the semi-fast Poole service and about 7 or 8 minutes for the Lymington branch. Dilemma, dilemma. What would you go for, because I can't make my mind up? I prefer the 15:45 ratio thing as it brings more benefits, and northbound in either situation luckily it is about 30 minutes apart.

Also if the Weymouth train went non-stop London Waterloo to Winchester during the off-peaks, removing the only intermediate stop at Woking, that way there was enough time to implement an all stations service south of Poole (except Holton Heath) - would this be welcomed? To compensate, the Poole semi-fast service would stop at Woking instead that way there is no loss in the 'proposed train frequencies'. Note that the calling pattern would be Waterloo, Winchester, Southampton Airport, Central, Brockenhurst, Poole, Hamworthy, Wareham, Wool, Moreton, Dorchester South, Upwey and Weymouth. It would add about 2-3 minutes on top of what was proposed in the running time, but it's better that smaller stations aren't losing out rather than trying to save 3 minutes surely?

Thoughts?

 

[Confused147]

Any reason why SW trains is the only operator being discussed for timetables in 2018?

Cross Country?? Virgin?? East Midlands??

 

[nw1]

St Denys always did, the Romsey Rocket & Portsmouth stopper, 1 tph on each route (2 tph), Swaything or Bomb Alley as it used to be known is a menace.

.. though these 2 trains run about 10 minutes apart in the up direction, and 1 minute apart in the down - so St Denys to all intents and purposes only has one train an hour to and from Central.

 

[Barn]

Also if the Weymouth train went non-stop London Waterloo to Winchester during the off-peaks, removing the only intermediate stop at Woking, that way there was enough time to implement an all stations service south of Poole (except Holton Heath) - would this be welcomed? To compensate, the Poole semi-fast service would stop at Woking instead that way there is no loss in the 'proposed train frequencies'. Note that the calling pattern would be Waterloo, Winchester, Southampton Airport, Central, Brockenhurst, Poole, Hamworthy, Wareham, Wool, Moreton, Dorchester South, Upwey and Weymouth. It would add about 2-3 minutes on top of what was proposed in the running time, but it's better that smaller stations aren't losing out rather than trying to save 3 minutes surely?

Thoughts?

Would there be a capacity issue in having both Woking and Basingstoke passengers on the same service? At present aren't they divided between the two (Woking on the fast trains, Basingstoke on the slower trains)?

 

[swt_passenger]

Any reason why SW trains is the only operator being discussed for timetables in 2018?

Cross Country?? Virgin?? East Midlands??

This thread was started specifically to discuss the public consultation (going on now) to do with the new SW franchisee (SWR) bringing in a completely revised timetable in Dec 2018. That's why it only considers SWR...

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Managed in the past when the xx:35 went non stop Waterloo - Airport let alone Winchester.

You could quite easily do the service like for like as in the past as you now have the Portsmouth (EH) service and a Poole service to cover those stops.

 

[swt_passenger]

Would there be a capacity issue in having both Woking and Basingstoke passengers on the same service? At present aren't they divided between the two (Woking on the fast trains, Basingstoke on the slower trains)?

The current set up is that the 2 fast trains xx00 and xx30 off Southampton have similar times to Waterloo. One normally calls at Woking and the other at Basingstoke.

But isn't the idea that the future Poole train and future single Weymouth train provide the 2 tph fast service at Winchester, Parkway and Southampton (and potentially Brockenhurst and Bournemouth)? I think they should have similar 'fast' calling patterns between Southampton and Waterloo, so one service takes Woking and the other Basingstoke as now. (Not fussed which way round.) That way they can both have times half an hour apart at Southampton Central and Winchester, (and also of course in the down direction).

Then the 'new' Waterloo - Southampton service opposite the Portsmouth via Eastleigh provides the 2 tph semifast.

I think you are right to point out that there could be a misbalance in capacity required if the calls are not shared out evenly.

 

[700007]

The current set up is that the 2 fast trains xx00 and xx30 off Southampton have similar times to Waterloo. One normally calls at Woking and the other at Basingstoke.

But isn't the idea that the future Poole train and future single Weymouth train provide the 2 tph fast service at Winchester, Parkway and Southampton (and potentially Brockenhurst and Bournemouth)? I think they should have similar 'fast' calling patterns between Southampton and Waterloo, so one service takes Woking and the other Basingstoke as now. (Not fussed which way round.) That way they can both have times half an hour apart at Southampton Central and Winchester, (and also of course in the down direction).

Then the 'new' Waterloo - Southampton service opposite the Portsmouth via Eastleigh provides the 2 tph semifast.

I think you are right to point out that there could be a misbalance in capacity required if the calls are not shared out evenly.

I've never thought of it like that, but thank you for pointing that out. I have in the past travelled on a service that has called at both Woking and Basingstoke during the off peaks and it seemed to do fine, provided there was no disruption and that the frequency was at least half-hourly. Noting that all Weymouth trains are to be 10-cars between Waterloo and Bournemouth according to management, would this still be an issue?

 

[FenMan]

This thread was started specifically to discuss the public consultation (going on now) to do with the new SW franchisee (SWR) bringing in a completely revised timetable in Dec 2018. That's why it only considers SWR...

That's as maybe. However any mooted timetable from SWR should demonstrate how it interacts with other TOCs' services at key interchange points such as Guildford, Basingstoke and Salisbury. There are a lot of passengers whose regular journeys involve SWR and an interchange to another TOC .....

SWR's proposal is silent on this. I have particular concerns that the current sensible connections with GWR at Guildford are going to be chucked in the bin, as the retiming of the Pompey trains at Guildford and the new Guildford - Farnham services simply don't fit the existing GWR timetable.

My suspicions are sharpened by the proposed changes to SWR's timings between Wokingham and Reading, which infer that GWR's services along the same stretch would not be retimed (unless SWR are happy with the idea of trains queueing to go through Wokingham and arriving and leaving Reading P4-6 at intervals that would leave absolutely no margin for error).

 

[HarleyDavidson]

That's precisely my concern for the Portsmouth line timetable, there's no margin for error or failure, with no looping of the stopping service and the end result is that the fast arrives just 3 minutes behind the stopping service and they are assuming that it will be fault free all the time.

Someone needs to to give them a reality check, as the performance on the direct has been nothing short of abysmal over the last few years and it has become so bad that they have given us forms to carry for certain sections of the line.

 

[pompeyfan]

That's precisely my concern for the Portsmouth line timetable, there's no margin for error or failure, with no looping of the stopping service and the end result is that the fast arrives just 3 minutes behind the stopping service and they are assuming that it will be fault free all the time.

Someone needs to to give them a reality check, as the performance on the direct has been nothing short of abysmal over the last few years and it has become so bad that they have given us forms to carry for certain sections of the line.

3185s?

Or are you on about princes bridge, sheet and Kings fernsden?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

To go to Portsmouth you have to carry: RT3185, ESW & Level Crossing forms for the Petersfield area, because the level crossings keep going kaput.

And they want to run more trains down there and there appears to be a lack of contingency measures in place to mitigate any disruption that may occur, so you're going to wind up with crew's from Waterloo, Woking and Guildford down there and no way back for them. So does that mean we can expect Fratton to do all of them? If they are so naive to try that there will be a lot of people who will up sticks and go as they're already sick and tired of double Londons.

 

[swt_passenger]

That's as maybe. However any mooted timetable from SWR should demonstrate how it interacts with other TOCs' services at key interchange points such as Guildford, Basingstoke and Salisbury. There are a lot of passengers whose regular journeys involve SWR and an interchange to another TOC.

Agree, but that's not the context I was replying to though. The earlier poster above (#68) appeared to be asking why it wasn't a generic national thread about Cross Country, Virgin and East Midlands as well. SWR did actually say in the consultation overview:

"Trains operated by other operators are not shown in the timetables both for clarity and because they will not yet have been finalised. Other operators current services, including where relevant freight services, have been considered in producing these timetables."

I'd start from the assumption that XC will not change significantly, because their timings are locked around Birmingham New St and Reading.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've never thought of it like that, but thank you for pointing that out. I have in the past travelled on a service that has called at both Woking and Basingstoke during the off peaks and it seemed to do fine, provided there was no disruption and that the frequency was at least half-hourly. Noting that all Weymouth trains are to be 10-cars between Waterloo and Bournemouth according to management, would this still be an issue?

Depends if it is only Weymouth trains that will all be 10 car, or Weymouth line trains, including the Poole. If Weymouths are all 10, but Pooles aren't, then there'd be a problem. My view would be make them all 10 car to Bournemouth, and balance the main intermediate calls 50/50.

(Ignoring any slight misbalance by having a Clapham Junction call in one of them.)

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Are 450s going to remain on the Southampton stopping services (I hope not) and what will happen to the Hedge End service? Will it start at Waterloo still or Eastleigh? Or Basingstoke? Will it remain a mix of 444 and 450?

 

[TEW]

Are 450s going to remain on the Poole services (I hope not) and what will happen to the Hedge End service? Will it start at Waterloo still or Eastleigh? Or Basingstoke? Will it remain a mix of 444 and 450?

All the timetable questions can be answered by simply looking at the proposed timetables. They are very thorough. Nobody knows about stock yet. The Poole service being the current Weymouth train cut back, rather than the current Poole service, will presumably be largely operated by 444s. Portsmouth via Basingstoke services will probably remain a mix, but nobody really knows for sure yet.

 

[pompeyfan]

I’d imagine more 444s would run the tangos with the 442s displacing them off the direct. Will be interesting to see what the slows on the Portsmouth direct run as though. A single 450 is too small, a single 444 is too posh and should be used on other routes, and 8.450 is probably over kill....

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Depends if it is only Weymouth trains that will all be 10 car, or Weymouth line trains, including the Poole. If Weymouths are all 10, but Pooles aren't, then there'd be a problem. My view would be make them all 10 car to Bournemouth, and balance the main intermediate calls 50/50.

(Ignoring any slight misbalance by having a Clapham Junction call in one of them.)

You might run into power supply issues with 10 car services beyond Poole, plus another 5 in the Poole area, plus a 4 car on the PMH-WEY service, it's more likely that things will continue as now with a 10 car going to Bournemouth and dividing or combining there as appropriate.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’d imagine more 444s would run the tangos with the 442s displacing them off the direct. Will be interesting to see what the slows on the Portsmouth direct run as though. A single 450 is too small, a single 444 is too posh wasteful and should be used on other routes, and 8.450 is probably over kill....

I wouldn’t say posh, but it is a waste of a 444 on a Haslemere terminator. Not as much as the Alton 444s though - I live in Farnham and love having them on the route but admit it is wasting them on there. A single 444 would be fine on a Southsea semi though.

8 450 is the usual for Haslemere terminators so it would be fine for Southsea semis too

 

[SpacePhoenix]

You might run into power supply issues with 10 car services beyond Poole, plus another 5 in the Poole area, plus a 4 car on the PMH-WEY service, it's more likely that things will continue as now with a 10 car going to Bournemouth and dividing or combining there as appropriate.

Wouldn't there also be issues with coupling units in the platforms at Poole due to the radius of the curve?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I can't remember if coupling is permitted down there or not, I don't sign it anymore.

 

[TEW]

I wouldn’t say posh, but it is a waste of a 444 on a Haslemere terminator. Not as much as the Alton 444s though - I live in Farnham and love having them on the route but admit it is wasting them on there. A single 444 would be fine on a Southsea semi though.

8 450 is the usual for Haslemere terminators so it would be fine for Southsea semis too

Only 3 of the 12 Haslemere starting/terminating services on a weekday are formed 8-450.

The use of 444s is a topic that comes up quite often on here. A lot of what they are used on Off Peak is just to ensure they all end up in the right place for the Peak. 444s are also used on some shoulder peak Alton and Basingstoke services as they can offer the best match between capacity and demand on certain services, being somewhere between a 4 and 8 car 450 in terms of capacity.

 

[TEW]

I’d imagine more 444s would run the tangos with the 442s displacing them off the direct. Will be interesting to see what the slows on the Portsmouth direct run as though. A single 450 is too small, a single 444 is too posh and should be used on other routes, and 8.450 is probably over kill....

Also talk of more 10 cars as far as Bournemouth on the Weymouth/Poole trains though which would also use more 444s, so they could be displaced from the Portsmouth Direct to that route.

 

[30907]

Wouldn't there also be issues with coupling units in the platforms at Poole due to the radius of the curve?

I don't recall trains being booked to couple at Poole at all - unless it has been done in an emergency?