SW Post-2018 timetable

[HarleyDavidson]

I don't recall trains being booked to couple at Poole at all - unless it has been done in an emergency?

Just checked it's not allowed except for failure.

 

[700007]

Are 450s going to remain on the Southampton stopping services (I hope not) and what will happen to the Hedge End service? Will it start at Waterloo still or Eastleigh? Or Basingstoke? Will it remain a mix of 444 and 450?

Although obviously not confirmed at the moment, I did manage to beat out a few possibilities or ideals from the managers - not trying to cause speculation or anything - and this is always subject to change, but to my understanding:

10-car 444s London Waterloo to Bournemouth, where it will divide with the front 5 cars going Weymouth. Rear 5 cars terminate.
10-car 442s on all but one (if I remember correctly) London Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour fast services all day every day. These will not be doing any other route, nor will they do the Portsmouth via Basingstoke lot either. 16 out of 18 442s should be in service every weekday. The one train that isn't a 442 should be a 444.
5-car 444s on the Portsmouth slows, so that's the stopping service on the direct line and also the service via Basingstoke and Hedge End. During the peak this should double up to 10 on selected trips.
At least 5-car 444s on Poole all day - you should rarely see a 450 doing Poole duties from Dec 2018 unless it's short formation.
450s for the most of it should form the London Waterloo to Southampton Central stopping service.
450s to always form Portsmouth - Southampton and Portsmouth - Weymouth services. It is unclear as to whether the Portsmouth - Weymouth would be formed of 8 coaches then detach into 2x450 at Bournemouth, similar to what the WAT-WEY lot do. Judging by the timetable they've been given, I'd say probably not...

Hopefully this gives you more of an idea slightly as to what's in the works, but as I said before, this could always change.

 

[TEW]

It seems exceptionally unlikely that 450s would be removed from Portsmouth services completely. For a start, the 450s wouldn't have enough work if they weren't used on Portsmouth services at all. I would expect 12-car 450s to be very common on peak Portsmouth via Eastleigh services, and peak Portsmouth via Guildford stopping services. With the commitment to 2+2 seating on all fast services to Portsmouth there will be a reduction in seating capacity towards Guildford, Godalming and Haslemere in the peak. I would be surprised if this was not mitigated by mainly 12-car 450s on the slow peak time services.

 

[30909]

From my observation Guilford, Godalming & Haslemere passengers would rather stand, to Woking or Guildford, on a 10 car 2+2 seated train than sit in the middle of 3 on a 450 with 3+2 seats. This is also demonstrated by the numbers who stand on the 3x450 peak "fasts" rather than occupy the middle seat.

 

[Barn]

From my observation Guilford, Godalming & Haslemere passengers would rather stand, to Woking or Guildford, on a 10 car 2+2 seated train than sit in the middle of 3 on a 450 with 3+2 seats. This is also demonstrated by the numbers who stand on the 3x450 peak "fasts" rather than occupy the middle seat.

That's interesting. On Southeastern, the middle seats on 465s are always occupied in the peaks. Whether this is due to different people or different trains, I'm not sure...

 

[hotel_mode]

Does anyone know why it's impossible to improve the SWML timetable before 1300 on a Sunday. It's pointless having 4 fast trains an hour in the afternoon when we only have 1 (overcrowded and slow) train to get us where we want to go in the morning.

2 useful trains per hour all day would be much more helpful.

I realise there are engineering issues, but no other 4 track main line from London runs 1/6th of the mon-sat service on Sunday mornings. The hourly Alton will still join the hourly Basingstoke at Woking on Sunday mornings, but then magically expand to 2 x Alton, 2 x Basingstoke and 2 x Farnborough/Fleet fasts at 1300.

 

[swt_passenger]

You might run into power supply issues with 10 car services beyond Poole, plus another 5 in the Poole area, plus a 4 car on the PMH-WEY service, it's more likely that things will continue as now with a 10 car going to Bournemouth and dividing or combining there as appropriate.

I agree. I really meant all Weymouth trains will be ten car to Bournemouth, unlike today where many are reduced to 5 car between the peaks.

 

[swt_passenger]

Are 450s going to remain on the Southampton stopping services (I hope not) and what will happen to the Hedge End service? Will it start at Waterloo still or Eastleigh? Or Basingstoke? Will it remain a mix of 444 and 450?

The timetables are clear enough, the Portsmouth via Eastleigh (that you call the Hedge End service) basically has no changes. It runs in the opposite half hour to the Waterloo - Southampton semifast (the shortened current Poole semifast).

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Although obviously not confirmed at the moment, I did manage to beat out a few possibilities or ideals from the managers - not trying to cause speculation or anything - and this is always subject to change, but to my understanding:

10-car 444s London Waterloo to Bournemouth, where it will divide with the front 5 cars going Weymouth. Rear 5 cars terminate.
10-car 442s on all but one (if I remember correctly) London Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour fast services all day every day. These will not be doing any other route, nor will they do the Portsmouth via Basingstoke lot either. 16 out of 18 442s should be in service every weekday. The one train that isn't a 442 should be a 444.
5-car 444s on the Portsmouth slows, so that's the stopping service on the direct line and also the service via Basingstoke and Hedge End. During the peak this should double up to 10 on selected trips.
At least 5-car 444s on Poole all day - you should rarely see a 450 doing Poole duties from Dec 2018 unless it's short formation.
450s for the most of it should form the London Waterloo to Southampton Central stopping service.
450s to always form Portsmouth - Southampton and Portsmouth - Weymouth services. It is unclear as to whether the Portsmouth - Weymouth would be formed of 8 coaches then detach into 2x450 at Bournemouth, similar to what the WAT-WEY lot do. Judging by the timetable they've been given, I'd say probably not...

Hopefully this gives you more of an idea slightly as to what's in the works, but as I said before, this could always change.

No 450s from Guildford? Ace! Thanks, that information is really helpful.

From my observation Guilford, Godalming & Haslemere passengers would rather stand, to Woking or Guildford, on a 10 car 2+2 seated train than sit in the middle of 3 on a 450 with 3+2 seats. This is also demonstrated by the numbers who stand on the 3x450 peak "fasts" rather than occupy the middle seat.

That is definitely me.

 

[700007]

No 450s from Guildford? Ace! Thanks, that information is really helpful.

Yeah you should stop seeing 450s on the Portsmouth Direct from the timetable change, only 442s and 444s. Although don't be surprised if during engineering works, Sundays, early mornings and late evenings you do catch a 450... SWR, although not per se a franchise commitment, understand that a lot of people on the Portsmouth Direct hate the 450s layout and as a result want them removed after a good 10 years or so of campaigning so they're putting in every effort to remove them from as many diagrams as they can (one of a few reasons behind the 442 reintroduction).

450s will still be doing the 'Hedge End' service though, so for those that like 450s (I do, *TT-ONR-NRN is to grill me slowly after this* , but I prefer a 444 any day).

I'm still trying to figure out where so many surplus 450s are going to as their main allocation, but I'm guessing:
Waterloo to Alton
Waterloo to Basingstoke
Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour via Eastleigh
Waterloo to Southampton Central
Weymouth to Portsmouth & Southsea
Southampton Central to Portsmouth Harbour
Ascot to Guildford (I heard something about this now to be 450s instead of 456s by the New Year, if any sooner, unless I'm going mad????)
I'm gonna guess the new Farnham to Guildford shuttle might be 450s as well
Brockenhurst to Lymington Pier
...and that's all I've got. But there's so many 450s and not all lines are going to be using 8/12 carriages all day?

Any chance 450s would be doing Lymington all week, perhaps?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If you like 450s then good for you , trust me, I won't grill you for that! It shows that you have immense patience and tolerance if you can enjoy riding those units!

Besides, I like Voyagers, so I'm in no position to judge!

If you prefer a 444 on a Hedge End service you may be interested to know that all Ports. Hbr via Eastleigh services are 444s on Saturdays. I don't know if this will remain like this post 2018.

 

[700007]

If you like 450s then good for you , trust me, I won't grill you for that! It shows that you have immense patience and tolerance if you can enjoy riding those units!

Besides, I like Voyagers, so I'm in no position to judge!

Had to chuckle when I saw this. That's the weirdest but nicest compliment I've gotten in ages! Thanks!

If you prefer a 444 on a Hedge End service you may be interested to know that all Ports. Hbr via Eastleigh services are 444s on Saturdays. I don't know if this will remain like this post 2018.

Usually goes hand in hand with the Poole lot which are also 444s for the most or all of it on a Saturday as well as more 444 units are free and are running as 5 cars and not 10.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Had to chuckle when I saw this. That's the weirdest but nicest compliment I've gotten in ages! Thanks!



Usually goes hand in hand with the Poole lot which are also 444s for the most or all of it on a Saturday as well as more 444 units are free and are running as 5 cars and not 10.

You're welcome and I think it is because there are so many 444s free because they aren't used on the Portsmouth Direct Line on Saturdays.

 

[DelW]

I'd certainly be pleased to see the departure of 450s from the Portsmouth Direct. They're not bad units in themselves, but aren't really suitable for long distance use - in particular I find the airline-style seats cramped and uncomfortable. The justification seems to be peak loadings into Waterloo, but (as has been mentioned earlier) many passengers decline to squash into middle seats of three and choose to stand instead. The fact that standard class seating in 444s is virtually the same as first class seating in 450s sums it up really.

I never understood why SWT, when they ditched the 442s, chose to place an additional order for 450s rather than going for additional 444s which would have been a more appropriate replacement. Passengers on the Direct had just got used to the 444s replacing the slammers when most of them were taken away to run So'ton and Weymouth services. The incoming 450s were never going to be a popular substitution. It's particularly galling that on weekends the Direct is usually all 450s when there must be 444s available, especially on Sundays.

 

[nw1]

Although obviously not confirmed at the moment, I did manage to beat out a few possibilities or ideals from the managers - not trying to cause speculation or anything - and this is always subject to change, but to my understanding:

10-car 444s London Waterloo to Bournemouth, where it will divide with the front 5 cars going Weymouth. Rear 5 cars terminate.
10-car 442s on all but one (if I remember correctly) London Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour fast services all day every day. These will not be doing any other route, nor will they do the Portsmouth via Basingstoke lot either. 16 out of 18 442s should be in service every weekday. The one train that isn't a 442 should be a 444.
5-car 444s on the Portsmouth slows, so that's the stopping service on the direct line and also the service via Basingstoke and Hedge End. During the peak this should double up to 10 on selected trips.
At least 5-car 444s on Poole all day - you should rarely see a 450 doing Poole duties from Dec 2018 unless it's short formation.
450s for the most of it should form the London Waterloo to Southampton Central stopping service.
450s to always form Portsmouth - Southampton and Portsmouth - Weymouth services. It is unclear as to whether the Portsmouth - Weymouth would be formed of 8 coaches then detach into 2x450 at Bournemouth, similar to what the WAT-WEY lot do. Judging by the timetable they've been given, I'd say probably not...

Hopefully this gives you more of an idea slightly as to what's in the works, but as I said before, this could always change.

I'd have thought it would make more sense to have predominantly 444s on the Waterloo-Southampton semi-fasts and predominantly 450s on the Portsmouth slows, because the former are 'faster' services, with more long-distance journeys to larger towns being taken (e.g. London to Eastleigh, South Coast to Farnborough). The latter will presumably be mostly used for fairly short journeys, or longer journeys to smaller places (e.g. London - Liphook or Liss), with the Portsmouth fasts favoured for longer-distance.

 

[DelW]

I'd have thought it would make more sense to have predominantly 444s on the Waterloo-Southampton semi-fasts and predominantly 450s on the Portsmouth slows, because the former are 'faster' services, with more long-distance journeys to larger towns being taken (e.g. London to Eastleigh, South Coast to Farnborough). The latter will presumably be mostly used for fairly short journeys, or longer journeys to smaller places (e.g. London - Liphook or Liss), with the Portsmouth fasts favoured for longer-distance.

Between Woking and Havant, only Guildford, Haslemere and Petersfield passengers have access to the fast(er) services, although this may change under the proposed timetable. Currently that leaves Rowlands Castle, Liss, Liphook, Witley, Milford, Godalming, Farncombe and Worplesdon passengers who only have stopping services. While those are mostly smaller towns or villages, in aggregate these passengers must be a significant proportion of the total. At present there are options to interchange between fast and stopping trains at Haslemere in the down direction, which will not be possible under the proposed new timetable.

I'll admit I'm biased though, my local station being one that's only served by stoppers and I'd rather they were 444s.

 

[swt_passenger]

Ever since this first started being discussed I have never thought it likely that there will be NO 450s at all on the Portsmouth Direct. They have also said that all trains will be ten car on the Weymouth route, (as far as Bournemouth), so they'll need more 444s over there as well.

I believe it is highly probable that 12.450s will remain in use on the "Direct" on the slower trains.

 

[TEW]

Ever since this first started being discussed I have never thought it likely that there will be NO 450s at all on the Portsmouth Direct. They have also said that all trains will be ten car on the Weymouth route, (as far as Bournemouth), so they'll need more 444s over there as well.

I believe it is highly probable that 12.450s will remain in use on the "Direct" on the slower trains.

Exactly the point I was making a little further up the thread. I would be very, very surprised indeed if there are not still a significant number of 450s used on the slower Portsmouth Direct trains, particularly in the peak.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Exactly the point I was making a little further up the thread. I would be very, very surprised indeed if there are not still a significant number of 450s used on the slower Portsmouth Direct trains, particularly in the peak.

Well even if that remains the case - I’m just delighted to see the back of them on fast services!

 

[A Challenge]

No 450s from Guildford? Ace! Thanks, that information is really helpful.

Ascot to Guildford (I heard something about this now to be 450s instead of 456s by the New Year, if any sooner, unless I'm going mad????)

@TT-ONR-NRN, note that the 450 will still be operating to Ascot from Guildford, which I have seen them doing at the weekend anyway!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

@TT-ONR-NRN, note that the 450 will still be operating to Ascot from Guildford, which I have seen them doing at the weekend anyway!

Oh I know! I’m on that route. I meant to London I shood have made it clear!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How many of the 442s would need to enter service to free up enough 450s to enable all services that use 456s to use 450s (probably until enough Aventras enter service)?

 

[TEW]

456s on Guildford-Ascot are replaced by 450s as a result of the cascade caused by the introduction of 707s, it has been part of the plan for a number of years and is unconnected to the 442s or 701s. 456s should be completely replaced by 450s on the route by the end of month. This allows the 456s to form up 10-car formations on Main Suburban routes from the December timetable. You wouldn't want to replace those with 450s, they won't be replaced until the 701s are coming on stream.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

456s on Guildford-Ascot are replaced by 450s as a result of the cascade caused by the introduction of 707s, it has been part of the plan for a number of years and is unconnected to the 442s or 701s. 456s should be completely replaced by 450s on the route by the end of month. This allows the 456s to form up 10-car formations on Main Suburban routes from the December timetable. You wouldn't want to replace those with 450s, they won't be replaced until the 701s are coming on stream.

This also means the end of free first class travel on the line - oh and I think the end of 456s being timetabled to work without a 455.

 

[JonathanH]

I never understood why SWT, when they ditched the 442s, chose to place an additional order for 450s rather than going for additional 444s which would have been a more appropriate replacement. Passengers on the Direct had just got used to the 444s replacing the slammers when most of them were taken away to run So'ton and Weymouth services. The incoming 450s were never going to be a popular substitution. It's particularly galling that on weekends the Direct is usually all 450s when there must be 444s available, especially on Sundays.

The extra 17 450s probably weren't ordered against 442 replacement so the idea of more 444s was never likely, they were more a growth build and to eliminate the 458s on the Reading line. However, as we know, what actually happened is that the 458s were reported to be considerably cheaper to lease than the 442s and Bournemouth depot could be downgraded. So the 17 450s weren't needed for their original purpose and could be used to eliminate 442s. It is likely that the 450s decision came before the 442 one.

There aren't enough 444s to run 10-444 to Portsmouth on Saturdays and 5-444 does not provide sufficient capacity so it has to be 8-450.

 

[TEW]

And Sundays, where there are more 444s available does see a significant number of 444s on the Portsmouth Direct, including plenty of 10 cars.

 

[nw1]

Ever since this first started being discussed I have never thought it likely that there will be NO 450s at all on the Portsmouth Direct. They have also said that all trains will be ten car on the Weymouth route, (as far as Bournemouth), so they'll need more 444s over there as well.

I believe it is highly probable that 12.450s will remain in use on the "Direct" on the slower trains.

One thing to bear in mind in the new timetable is that there will be four slows per hour in the peak, and the peak is extending later than its traditional end (to around 1900 or so) - they'll be hard pushed to make all those down slows 10.444 I suspect. However it might well be possible to make _both_ the Portsmouth slows _and_ the Southampton semi-fasts 444s off peak Mon-Fri; is it actually necessary to have all the Weymouths and Pooles 10 car in the middle of the day (say arriving London between 1100-1700 or departing London before 1500) away from the summer holiday season? I rarely encounter an overcrowded 5.444 on a Weymouth off-peak Mon-Fri.

SWT circa 1997 seemed to adopt this strategy; more than half the Basingstoke and Alton slows were CIGs off peak which then transferred to faster routes in the peak with VEPs taking over the Basingstoke/Altons. On Saturdays when more people travelled off peak, the CIGs were needed for fast services all day, with the Basingstoke/Altons being pure higher-density VEP.

 

[swt_passenger]

How many of the 442s would need to enter service to free up enough 450s to enable all services that use 456s to use 450s (probably until enough Aventras enter service)?

Bangs head.

450s on Guildford - Ascot is achieved by the end of this year, on SWT's original plans, as a result of the 707 introduction. Another aspect of the cascades that has been explained numerous times over the last couple of years and is nothing to do with the franchise change.

 

[swt_passenger]

...is it actually necessary to have all the Weymouths and Pooles 10 car in the middle of the day (say arriving London between 1100-1700 or departing London before 1500) away from the summer holiday season? I rarely encounter an overcrowded 5.444 on a Weymouth off-peak Mon-Fri.

It's what they state they are going to do, presumably they must be able to justify it.

"The vast majority of fast services will now run as 10-car trains between Waterloo and Bournemouth providing additional off-peak capacity and evening capacity."

And everyone doing the full journey will be heading for the hourly through train, don't forget, so each one must be expected to carry a few more passengers. But as mentioned earlier by others, it is not known if the Poole fast will also be 10 car to Bournemouth in the off-peak. It seems likely that it will only be the Weymouth that is 10 car on every Waterloo departure, but even that change presumably needs more units on that route than the present timetable.

 

[swt_passenger]

In the correspondence on the ORR site I see they have revised the Hounslow terminating services . Originally, they said that trains would run as ECS between Hounslow and Virginia Water, so that although the Virginia Water <> Weybridge would show up as an independent passenger service it would share trains with the Waterloo to Hounslow, until such time as new reversing facilities would be provided at Hounslow.
This has changed now, in an email response to GBRf they say they will now run the stock empty from Hounslow to start back from Twickenham P3, so the Weybridge shuttle will now be completely separate, and it will remove the need for the ECS moves through Staines.