Swanage to Wareham postponed again

[Brush 4]

There was a huge queue for the 50 bus yesterday evening, right round the end of the platform for those who lnow the area. A relief bus was provided and they set off together. Flexibility the modern rly could not provide I suspect, if the line had never closed. No spare 159 or crew to couple on to the rostered unit. Anyway the summer demand is there for a through train service to Poole and Bournemouth, whether by Swanage main line DMU's or a TOC. A 3 car159 could handle 2 bus loads of passengers. 2 units for Corfe and Poole as well but, see above.

 

[Enthusiast]

It has been voted one of Britains most scenic bus journeys.

The first twenty minutes is (Swanage to Shell Bay) and the ferry ride is probably unique. However, once across to Sandbanks (surely one of the most over-rated areas in the UK) it is quite mundane. The road from leaving Sandbanks briefly skirting round Poole Harbour is quite nice. But once the bus turns into Haven Road to head for Canford Cliffs it simply winds through the Poole/Bournemouth conurbation.

"More" has the following service update on route 50 today:

Delays to Breezer 50

16th - 18th Apr

• Affected routes:
• 50

Due to the glorious weather today on this Bank Holiday weekend, we are seeing an increased number of passengers using our Breezer 50 service, plus increased traffic levels around coastal areas. This is resulting in some services being delayed upto 30 minutes. We are implementing additional resources to help reduce these delays.

 

[jupiter]

There was a huge queue for the 50 bus yesterday evening, right round the end of the platform for those who lnow the area. A relief bus was provided and they set off together. Flexibility the modern rly could not provide I suspect, if the line had never closed. No spare 159 or crew to couple on to the rostered unit. Anyway the summer demand is there for a through train service to Poole and Bournemouth, whether by Swanage main line DMU's or a TOC. A 3 car159 could handle 2 bus loads of passengers. 2 units for Corfe and Poole as well but, see above.

I never really thought about the destination before, never questioned the Wareham part of Swanage to Wareham, but it makes sense to go through to Poole, even Bournemouth, if the timings work. I could see Poole working particularly well with the catchment area, only trouble is I suppose quite a fair proportion of the bus passengers will be twirlies and you probably won’t get them off their free buses.

 

[Titfield]

only trouble is I suppose quite a fair proportion of the bus passengers will be twirlies and you probably won’t get them off their free buses.

I have travelled on the 40 between Swanage and Wareham / Poole quite a lot over the past few years during the day time outside of the peak. In my experience ENCTS passengers have counted for 70 - 80%+ of the passenger load. On occasion I have been the only passenger not using some form of concession.

 

[Dougal2345]

A relief bus was provided and they set off together. Flexibility the modern rly could not provide I suspect, if the line had never closed.

If the line had never closed, it might well have been electrified and had 450s on it now. But either way, a bus has a strict (legal?) limit on the number of standing passengers - and standing on a bus is a remarkably unpleasant business. A train has no such limitation, so in especially busy periods can carry a lot of people standing, and is far less likely to leave people behind than a bus is...

 

[paul1609]

I never really thought about the destination before, never questioned the Wareham part of Swanage to Wareham, but it makes sense to go through to Poole, even Bournemouth, if the timings work. I could see Poole working particularly well with the catchment area, only trouble is I suppose quite a fair proportion of the bus passengers will be twirlies and you probably won’t get them off their free buses.

I suspect that the Swanage Railways dmus risk assessment takes in to account the relatively low speed that they will achieve between Worgret Junction and Wareham, agreement for them to operate further afield at line speed would be very difficult (impossible?) to achieve even if paths were available.

 

[Titfield]

I suspect that the Swanage Railways dmus risk assessment takes in to account the relatively low speed that they will achieve between Worgret Junction and Wareham, agreement for them to operate further afield at line speed would be very difficult (impossible?) to achieve even if paths were available.

I am sure that I have read somewhere that the ORR will not grant authorisation for these units to be used anywhere on the mainline except between Worgret Junction and Wareham because of their crash worthiness.

 

[Cymroglan]

I still favour the Morebus service from Wareham station. It only takes 23 minutes to reach the Swanage Railway at Corfe Castle, or 44 minutes to reach Swanage. I regard it as the easiest way of getting to the SR.

 

[Titfield]

I still favour the Morebus service from Wareham station. It only takes 23 minutes to reach the Swanage Railway at Corfe Castle, or 44 minutes to reach Swanage. I regard it as the easiest way of getting to the SR.

If you are coming from the East then Bournemouth to Swanage by PB 50 is usually slightly quicker than the additional travel time to Wareham, change and wait for the PB40, then the bus journey time to Swanage. Also in the high season the PB50 is half hourly whereas the PB40 from Poole and Wareham is hourly.

Personally I prefer via Bournemouth as getting on at Bournemouth Railway Station usually guarantees a seat, the journey is more attractive over the ferry etc and it is a (partially) open topper on good weather days.

Of course if you are adventurous you could always get to Poole, then get the City Cruises Boat from Poole to Swanage, train from Swanage to Corfe Castle and then bus back to Poole.

 

[Dougal2345]

It all depends on priorities I guess - my priority is always "how do I spend the least amount of time on a bus", but others may differ.

And (as mentioned earlier) both routes are expensive - the 50 offers a minimal amount of ticketing integration with the railway, the 40, none. No PlusBus.

Still at least the vehicles used are reasonably modern - going off at a tangent, but at the weekend I got a Havant PlusBus and headed to Hayling Island, which bus-wise felt like I'd travelled to the Third World (no disrespect to the Third World, I'm sure they have better buses actually). Small, ancient seeming single decker buses, bone shakers that amplified every bump in the road to a spine-jarring jolt, accompanied by a deafening rattle from seemingly every seat and window. Seats where I had to sit sideways to protect my kneecaps. Driving styles or snatching brakes that constantly threatened to smash my teeth against the seat in front. Drivers that had no idea what a PlusBus was. And to think that 150 years ago people were travelling in comfort on a railway...

 

[Enthusiast]

Of course if you are adventurous you could always get to Poole, then get the City Cruises Boat from Poole to Swanage, train from Swanage to Corfe Castle and then bus back to Poole.

Bit of a hoof from Poole Station to the Quay, though it's a pleasant enough walk down the old High Street and through the Old Town. You need to come out of the "Up" side of the station and walk through the shopping centre or you will have to negotiate the gigantic road junction where the A350 enters the town. There is the Poole "Town Circular" bus which runs every 15 minutes for most of the day (though not at all on Sundays and Bank Holidays).

 

[Dougal2345]

You need to come out of the "Up" side of the station and walk through the shopping centre or you will have to negotiate the gigantic road junction where the A350 enters the town.

Actually if you're in a rush I think you can save a minute or three (and avoid crossing the railway, if you've arrived on the down side) by leaving Poole station from the 'down' side, walking along the minor service road (Vanguard Road) that runs under the flyover alongside the railway, follow it as it makes a sharp right behind the High Street shops, then turn left at the end, and you'll find yourself already a fair way down the High Street.

 

[jupiter]

Bit of a hoof from Poole Station to the Quay, though it's a pleasant enough walk down the old High Street and through the Old Town. You need to come out of the "Up" side of the station and walk through the shopping centre or you will have to negotiate the gigantic road junction where the A350 enters the town. There is the Poole "Town Circular" bus which runs every 15 minutes for most of the day (though not at all on Sundays and Bank Holidays).

Not so, you can get off at the down platform, go straight down the ramp to the outside world, head under Towngate bridge (well signposted shared pedestrian/cycle route, and down the high street at your leisure.

 

[nw1]

I think the fundamental problem with reaching the Swanage area by public transport, as others have said, is the expense of the last bit: Bournemouth or Wareham to Swanage. So if you're travelling from say Southampton to Swanage, perhaps a third of the total fare is for the last bit into Swanage.

Through rail/bus tickets with the bus section charged at a more affordable rate would help; PlusBus would be a good idea, I agree. I've used PlusBus to reach Wilton (near Salisbury), to better access the South Wilts countryside compared to Salisbury itself, and found it good value.

This is the one factor that has put me off travelling to Purbeck by PT, it's a very expensive destination to reach compared to other picturesque parts of the south at similar distance. Compare south Hampshire to Arundel or Amberley by rail, which is considerably cheaper. Or even the highly underrated Tisbury area, a hidden gem and a still-unspoilt area of the central south easy, and not expensive, to reach by train. With a Network Railcard, even distant Eastbourne (for Beachy Head, Seven Sisters etc) from south Hampshire is cheaper! (or it was in 2013 at any rate..)

I guess, however, that the pricing is based on what enough people are prepared to pay, so not sure if it will ever change other than if a government-driven 'green' agenda is followed to price train-bus journeys more affordably to reduce the number of cars on Purbeck roads. In the absence of the SR operating, I also would support an hourly Wareham station-Swanage shuttle bus (not originating at Poole) which would be geared, and timed, for rail connections, routed via Wareham town, the A351, Corfe, then in alternate hours the direct (but less interesting) route, or the scenic route via Kingston, and Langton Matravers.


As for the SR operating through services - it's obviously a different problem but a return of those 159s (or even 158s) to Corfe in the summer season might be doable, if one unit is available.

The mistake I think was closing it in 1972! If it had never closed it could probably support a Bournemouth-Swanage shuttle nowadays, particularly (as others have said) it would provide additional services at intermediate stations. Could also have been electrified at the same time as Weymouth if kept open, which would have opened up other opportunities.

 

[Titfield]

I think the fundamental problem with reaching the Swanage area by public transport. as others have said, is the expense of the last bit: Bournemouth or Wareham to Swanage. So if you're travelling from say Southampton to Swanage, perhaps a third of the total fare is for the last bit into Swanage.

Through rail/bus tickets with the bus section charged at approximately the same mileage rate as the rail part would mean more affordable fares.

This is the one factor that has put me off travelling to Purbeck by PT, it's a very expensive destination to reach compared to other picturesque parts of the south at similar distance.

I guess the pricing is based on what people are prepared to pay, so not sure if it will ever change other than if a 'green' agenda is followed to price train-bus journeys more affordably to reduce the number of cars on Purbeck roads. In the absence of the SR operating, I also would support a Wareham station-Swanage shuttle bus (not originating at Poole) which would be geared for rail connections, routed via Wareham town, the A351, Corfe, then in alternate hours the direct (but less interesting) route, or the scenic route via Kingston, and Langton Matravers.

I am cynical enough to believe that the cash fares have been deliberately set high because (a) so that the reimbursal of the bus fares under the ENCTS scheme covers the cost of running the service (b) holidaymakers / tourists will happily pay the fares (as evidenced by the demand for the Sandbanks ferry).

Reducing rail fares will not in my opinion reduce the number of cars on the roads of the Isle of Purbeck. Perhaps and I say perhaps if the rail fare was £2 return per adult, £1 return for kids, family ticket £5 return with free car parking at the rail stations you may stand a bit of a chance. The convenience and attraction of the car is simply too great.

Still at least the vehicles used are reasonably modern.

The Purbeck Breezer fleet was renewed (ie all brand new) in 2016. The vehicles purchased were specifically for the PB routes.

 

[Enthusiast]

Not so, you can get off at the down platform, go straight down the ramp to the outside world, head under Towngate bridge (well signposted shared pedestrian/cycle route, and down the high street at your leisure.

Thanks. I obviously missed that. I ended up crossing the multi-lane junction opposite the Travelodge, through a little park and came out into the High Street just past the road where "The Lord Wimborne" (Wetherspoons) is. The underpass sounds a little more attractive! (Either that or I'll get the bus).

 

[jupiter]

No need to take the underpass, go past that, under the bridge and immediately turn right.

 

[A0wen]

If the line had never closed, it might well have been electrified and had 450s on it now. But either way, a bus has a strict (legal?) limit on the number of standing passengers - and standing on a bus is a remarkably unpleasant business. A train has no such limitation, so in especially busy periods can carry a lot of people standing, and is far less likely to leave people behind than a bus is...

There may not be the legal limit, but there is a physical limit to the amount of space on a train even then.

If you take a class 450 as a sensible start point, they have 20m coaches - a "typical" modern double deck bus is about half that e.g. ADL Enviro 400, 10.1m.

According to SWR a 4 car 450 has just under 300 seats (that's with 3+2 seating) a 10.1m ADL Enviro can take about 70 - so 4 double deck buses is about the same in seating as a 4 car 450.

Whilst you're right about the standing - the flip side is that you can't magic up a 4 car train from "thin air" once it leaves full and standing until another unit can arrive you can't do anything which on a branch like Swanage would probably be until it had either got to Wareham and dropped all its passengers off so it could return or until the next one arrived, possibly an hour later.

Whereas W&D know their summer peak period quite well and potentially can provide additional buses at much shorter notice. The turnaround is less because as each bus fills up it can be despatched, whereas with the train you're looking at filling the whole unit until it is full - which takes longer. So I'm not sure there's as much difference, particularly on a shorter distance, as it seems.

 

[paul1609]

I think the fundamental problem with reaching the Swanage area by public transport, as others have said, is the expense of the last bit: Bournemouth or Wareham to Swanage. So if you're travelling from say Southampton to Swanage, perhaps a third of the total fare is for the last bit into Swanage.

I think your distance perception is awry.
Southampton to Bournemouth by rail is approx 29miles. Bournemouth to Swanage via the Sandbanks Ferry (50 bus) is 13 miles, via Wareham its 25 miles. Cheap day return Southampton to Bournemouth is £16.90, the bus add on is £7.90 return including the ferry. The bus is charging 31% of the total fare for 31% of the journey including the ferry that seems very reasonable to me.

 

[nw1]

I think your distance perception is awry.
Southampton to Bournemouth by rail is approx 29miles. Bournemouth to Swanage via the Sandbanks Ferry (50 bus) is 13 miles, via Wareham its 25 miles. Cheap day return Southampton to Bournemouth is £16.90, the bus add on is £7.90 return including the ferry. The bus is charging 31% of the total fare for 31% of the journey including the ferry that seems very reasonable to me.

From Bournemouth I was probably thinking of straight line distances to some extent: Bournemouth to Swanage straight-line isn't very far (I'm surprised it's as much as 13 miles via the ferry if I'm honest, I'd have said no more than 10 but fair point).

But I was primarily thinking of the Wareham route (changing from rail to bus at Wareham), in which the rail journey is considerably more mileage than the bus journey, the rail part must be around 40-45 miles and the bus, perhaps 12? Not sure how much a return to Swanage is now, but I do remember noting a number of years ago that it was pretty expensive compared to the rail ticket, particularly if a Network Railcard is used.

I will say that SWR withdrawing cheaper tickets from Saturday mornings hasn't helped, so the rail part is less good value than it was. But if you either hold a Network Railcard or travel on a Saturday after 12.00 (feasible in the summer when not dark until 9pm) or a Sunday, via Wareham, then the rail part must be significantly less expensive relatively speaking than the bus part. With a railcard, at worst it's around £14 for the rail part and little more than £11 on Saturday afternoon or Sunday. The bus return to Swanage must be at least £7 to £8, at a guess, these days - and Corfe, which is a pretty short distance from Wareham, around £5.

But as I said the current climate is not very conducive to what I call 'carrot green' politics to make mixed-mode PT journeys more financially attractive (as it costs too much) so not sure we'll see anything to help the situation in the short term. If we had the combination of a green agenda and economic good times, we could have been onto a winner. Maybe by 2030...

 

[paul1609]

From Bournemouth I was probably thinking of straight line distances to some extent: Bournemouth to Swanage straight-line isn't very far (I'm surprised it's as much as 13 miles via the ferry if I'm honest, I'd have said no more than 10 but fair point).

But I was primarily thinking of the Wareham route (changing from rail to bus at Wareham), in which the rail journey is considerably more mileage than the bus journey, the rail part must be around 40-45 miles and the bus, perhaps 12? Not sure how much a return to Swanage is now, but I do remember noting a number of years ago that it was pretty expensive compared to the rail ticket, particularly if a Network Railcard is used.

I will say that SWR withdrawing cheaper tickets from Saturday mornings hasn't helped, so the rail part is less good value than it was. But if you either hold a Network Railcard or travel on a Saturday after 12.00 (feasible in the summer when not dark until 9pm) or a Sunday, via Wareham, then the rail part must be significantly less expensive relatively speaking than the bus part. With a railcard, at worst it's around £14 for the rail part and little more than £11 on Saturday afternoon or Sunday. The bus return to Swanage must be at least £7 to £8, at a guess, these days - and Corfe, which is a pretty short distance from Wareham, around £5.

But as I said the current climate is not very conducive to what I call 'carrot green' politics to make mixed-mode PT journeys more financially attractive (as it costs too much) so not sure we'll see anything to help the situation in the short term. If we had the combination of a green agenda and economic good times, we could have been onto a winner. Maybe by 2030...

Unfortunately because of the Geography of the rail lines and Poole Harbour I don't think it's ever going to be greener to go 12 miles by relatively inefficient dc trains to Wareham then 12 miles on a Euro 6 bus to Swanage (or an elderly dmu) than the direct 13 miles via Euro 6 bus (and chain ferry). Of course the direct route already has through bus ticketing albeit there's no discount for network railcard holders. Even Corfe Castle is only 1 mile shorter via Wareham than via Swanage and you are in to the day ticket fare for the buses of £9.50 even for the journey from Bournemouth changing at Swanage.

 

[Titfield]

As the question of emissions has been raised rather than spending £1.4M plus on refurbishing to *mainline standards* the Class 117 and Class 121 DMU, should that amount of money been used to purchase 5 - 6 Euro VI or better buses for GSC to use on an enhanced Purbeck Breezer 40 route?

I appreciate that many on this forum are railway enthusiasts but I am a public transport advocate and believe that public monies should be used to the best effect.

The reason I have put asterisks around the words mainline standards is that definition whilst accurate in one sense is not in another. The Class 117 and 121 DMUs are likely only to be certified to be used on the mainline between Worgret Junction and Wareham (or possibly between Wool and Wareham). They will not be allowed any further towards Poole and Bournemouth. AIUI the diesel engines fitted are simply bitsa Leylands (600 / 680?) of pre euro designation and thus not as friendly to the environment as they could be. I understand that SR's attention has been drawn to the work that Cummins did to reengine Sir Peter Hendys RM bus to Euro VI standard but that has been discounted for reasons I know not. Fundamentally £1.4M is a lot of money to spend on DMUs that are yet to be used for their specific intended purpose and in all likelihood will operate very few passenger miles when compared with what a fleet of 5 or 6 new buses could deliver.

 

[paul1609]

As the question of emissions has been raised rather than spending £1.4M plus on refurbishing to *mainline standards* the Class 117 and Class 121 DMU, should that amount of money been used to purchase 5 - 6 Euro VI or better buses for GSC to use on an enhanced Purbeck Breezer 40 route?

I appreciate that many on this forum are railway enthusiasts but I am a public transport advocate and believe that public monies should be used to the best effect.

The reason I have put asterisks around the words mainline standards is that definition whilst accurate in one sense is not in another. The Class 117 and 121 DMUs are likely only to be certified to be used on the mainline between Worgret Junction and Wareham (or possibly between Wool and Wareham). They will not be allowed any further towards Poole and Bournemouth. AIUI the diesel engines fitted are simply bitsa Leylands (600 / 680?) of pre euro designation and thus not as friendly to the environment as they could be. I understand that SR's attention has been drawn to the work that Cummins did to reengine Sir Peter Hendys RM bus to Euro VI standard but that has been discounted for reasons I know not. Fundamentally £1.4M is a lot of money to spend on DMUs that are yet to be used for their specific intended purpose and in all likelihood will operate very few passenger miles when compared with what a fleet of 5 or 6 new buses could deliver.

Euro 6 is a road engine specification. I'm pretty sure there is no rail engine commercially available that meets such a stringent emissions limit. The rail "equivalent" would be tier 4 but I don't think their are any tier 4 engines compact enough to fit under a traditional dmmu.

 

[Mainline421]

Through rail/bus tickets with the bus section charged at a more affordable rate would help; PlusBus would be a good idea, I agree. I've used PlusBus to reach Wilton (near Salisbury), to better access the South Wilts countryside compared to Salisbury itself, and found it good value.

These already exist with railcard discounts https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=BMH&dest=J348&rlc=YNG

 

[Titfield]

Euro 6 is a road engine specification. I'm pretty sure there is no rail engine commercially available that meets such a stringent emissions limit. The rail "equivalent" would be tier 4 but I don't think their are any tier 4 engines compact enough to fit under a traditional dmmu.

Well given the very similar sizes of the Leyland 600 / 680 and their modern (for example) Cummins equivalent I see no reason why "bus" diesel engines couldnt be used and mapped to give the power / torque output needed for a heritage dmu application. It may take some work but DMUs are widely used on heritage railways so it could be a worthwhile investment.

Heritage railways already want a derogation for the burning of coal, wanting to be allowed to continue to use "old" diesel engines may be a concession too far for either the politicians or the general public. The industry has to do more to offset its impact on the environment especially if it wants to continue to receive grants from them public purse given that reducing environmental impact is government policy.

 

[nw1]

These already exist with railcard discounts https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=BMH&dest=J348&rlc=YNG

Ah OK, thanks for that.

 

[A0wen]

Well given the very similar sizes of the Leyland 600 / 680 and their modern (for example) Cummins equivalent I see no reason why "bus" diesel engines couldnt be used and mapped to give the power / torque output needed for a heritage dmu application. It may take some work but DMUs are widely used on heritage railways so it could be a worthwhile investment.

The point is the emissions output vary by use of engine. To use cars as an example a 1.0, 125PS Ford Ecoboost engine outputs 99g Co2, in a Fiesta, 108g in a Focus, 119g in a Mondeo.

 

[Titfield]

The point is the emissions output vary by use of engine. To use cars as an example a 1.0, 125PS Ford Ecoboost engine outputs 99g Co2, in a Fiesta, 108g in a Focus, 119g in a Mondeo.

Yes they do.

 

[paul1609]

Well given the very similar sizes of the Leyland 600 / 680 and their modern (for example) Cummins equivalent I see no reason why "bus" diesel engines couldnt be used and mapped to give the power / torque output needed for a heritage dmu application. It may take some work but DMUs are widely used on heritage railways so it could be a worthwhile investment.

Heritage railways already want a derogation for the burning of coal, wanting to be allowed to continue to use "old" diesel engines may be a concession too far for either the politicians or the general public. The industry has to do more to offset its impact on the environment especially if it wants to continue to receive grants from them public purse given that reducing environmental impact is government policy.

Realistically you'd have to fit a whole new engine and transmission system none of which are available off the shelf. You'd have to design an interface system between the drivers controls and the ECU. Youd need to fit new tanks for the URea/ Adblue injection system and design and build a whole new exhaust system including a diesel particulate filters. Realistically the development and testing costs alone would run in to millions and these would be per vehicle type. None of this is vaguely viable for the heritage movement and the effect if such regulations were to be bought in would be for most of the vehicles to be scrapped with maybe a few retained as static exhibits.. Euro 7 emission limits for diesels are supposed to be agreed next year so nobody even knows what you'd be designing the engineering to do at this stage.
My heritage railway, I suspect many others and the hra have sustainability committees that are investigating these issues and feeding back to government. One of the interesting aspects for our railway is the relatively low level of carbon that is actually attributed to traction as opposed to general energy consumption on items such as signalling, telecomunications, engineering and building heating.

 

[Titfield]

Realistically you'd have to fit a whole new engine and transmission system none of which are available off the shelf. You'd have to design an interface system between the drivers controls and the ECU. Youd need to fit new tanks for the URea/ Adblue injection system and design and build a whole new exhaust system including a diesel particulate filters. Realistically the development and testing costs alone would run in to millions and these would be per vehicle type. None of this is vaguely viable for the heritage movement and the effect if such regulations were to be bought in would be for most of the vehicles to be scrapped with maybe a few retained as static exhibits.. Euro 7 emission limits for diesels are supposed to be agreed next year so nobody even knows what you'd be designing the engineering to do at this stage.
My heritage railway, I suspect many others and the hra have sustainability committees that are investigating these issues and feeding back to government. One of the interesting aspects for our railway is the relatively low level of carbon that is actually attributed to traction as opposed to general energy consumption on items such as signalling, telecomunications, engineering and building heating.

Perhaps it would be helpful if Heritage Railways stated their position on many of these issues rather than just remaining silent. If there are quick wins then perhaps they should be carrying some of those out to at least demonstrate their engagement.