Swanage to Wareham postponed again

A0wen

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Perhaps it would be helpful if Heritage Railways stated their position on many of these issues rather than just remaining silent. If there are quick wins then perhaps they should be carrying some of those out to at least demonstrate their engagement.

The problem is no two heritage railways have the same view on many issues. Add in the internal, parochial politics of the societies which run the railways means it's a long way down their priorities list.
 
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Titfield

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The problem is no two heritage railways have the same view on many issues. Add in the internal, parochial politics of the societies which run the railways means it's a long way down their priorities list.

I would venture to suggest that HRs ignore these issues at their peril. The funders and customer base of HRs is changing and HRs can no longer rely on their support particularly financial.
 

Mike Machin

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I think that all heritage railways will need to consider battery-powered multiple units (converted dmus) for their everyday traction, with very occasional use of steam or diesel locomotives restricted to high days and holidays.

In many cases now, even main line rail is no longer a green in comparison to electric road vehicles, so smoke-belching steam locomotives and diesel traction emitting clouds of toxic fumes will not be socially acceptable for leisure activities by the end of this decade.

The time has come for a complete re-think on the future of heritage railways, and railway preservationists will need to take the same view as canal preservationists in preserving the fabric and infrastructure of the railway rather than obsessing on what types of vehicles will be running over it.
 

Dougal2345

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In many cases now, even main line rail is no longer a green in comparison to electric road vehicle
Is that true? I'm all for electric cars in principle, but they are quite carbon-intensive to produce, I've heard.

So maybe even a stinky old cl.165, carrying a fair number of people and being intensively used through the day, is still less polluting than manufacturing a load of electric cars which will then sit around going nowhere for the vast majority of the day...?
 

Titfield

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Pleased to hear it. It as much about what you do as what you are seen to be doing.

I think there are "simpler" wins albeit at a cost for example:
1) using LED lightbulbs TRVS and other energy saving measures especially in non public areas.
2) installing rain water recovery systems to "reuse" water for washing, toilet flushing and possibly loco use
3) buying green electricity and gas
4) encouraging visitors to place recyclable waste in the bins provided
5) using recyclable cups etc in the buffets and canteens
6) emphasising public transport , walking and cycling in how to get to the railway publicity materials
7) considering reducing the print runs for leaflets etc
 

paul1609

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Pleased to hear it. It as much about what you do as what you are seen to be doing.

I think there are "simpler" wins albeit at a cost for example:
1) using LED lightbulbs TRVS and other energy saving measures especially in non public areas.
2) installing rain water recovery systems to "reuse" water for washing, toilet flushing and possibly loco use
3) buying green electricity and gas
4) encouraging visitors to place recyclable waste in the bins provided
5) using recyclable cups etc in the buffets and canteens
6) emphasising public transport , walking and cycling in how to get to the railway publicity materials
7) considering reducing the print runs for leaflets etc
As far as the K&ESR is concerned.
1) in place
2) Considered but not found to be viable. Historic buildings have water butts for flower beds etc.
3) Our electricity contracts are currently with EDF with full enviromental information available and considered.
4) In place
5) China/ Compostable Cups are currently in use with on site composting at Tenterden
6) Transport & Works Order Application in progress to reinstate mainline connection, website prioritises train and bus links over car information.
7) Already actioned, print runs down to 14% of 2010 figures with emphasis on downloads. Some leaflets eliminated with an on demand printing service available on site.
 

VEP3417

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still cant find any info on when or how the other visiting locos are getting there as still nothing on rtt, saw the 50 and 33 on the mainline going there recently but no other locos unless theyre already there or are going by road?
 

Robert Ambler

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Is that true? I'm all for electric cars in principle, but they are quite carbon-intensive to produce, I've heard.

So maybe even a stinky old cl.165, carrying a fair number of people and being intensively used through the day, is still less polluting than manufacturing a load of electric cars which will then sit around going nowhere for the vast majority of the day...?
Yes I agree with you. The real world carbon emission of an electric car is actually only about half that of one with an internal combustion engine (and I think those figures are used in official publications etc). So even if all road vehicles in the UK were battery electric and rail remained as is then the total emissions for road vehicles and the emissions per passenger km (or similar figures) would still be greater for private cars than rail.
 

Bald Rick

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The real world carbon emission of an electric car is actually only about half that of one with an internal combustion engine

that surely depends on the generation mix of the electricity system. Ours has markedly improved in the past few years.
 

Western Sunset

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still cant find any info on when or how the other visiting locos are getting there as still nothing on rtt, saw the 50 and 33 on the mainline going there recently but no other locos unless theyre already there or are going by road?
Grapeline says next Tuesday. The 25 has travelled by road.
 

GLC

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Yes I agree with you. The real world carbon emission of an electric car is actually only about half that of one with an internal combustion engine (and I think those figures are used in official publications etc). So even if all road vehicles in the UK were battery electric and rail remained as is then the total emissions for road vehicles and the emissions per passenger km (or similar figures) would still be greater for private cars than rail.
After some quick Googling, my 2016 EV is estimated to have produced 9,714kg CO2e during production, and has now covered 53,000 miles. Average carbon produced by the electricity to charge it in my region was 44.6g in 2018 (and will almost certainly be lower now). Using that as a baseline, my car “produces” 227g CO2e per mile. The average carbon emissions, according to ORR, of all passenger trains in 2021 is 234.4g CO2e per passenger per mile, which of course ignores carbon produced during construction of said trains.

For every mile more I cover in my EV, my carbon intensity lowers. For every extra passenger I carry, the figures also are reduced heavily again.

It is of course diesel trains dragging the co2 figures up for trains, and electric trains are much cleaner than my EV, not to mention the benefits of reduced traffic and wasted space by parked cars etc for public transport.
 

The Ham

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After some quick Googling, my 2016 EV is estimated to have produced 9,714kg CO2e during production, and has now covered 53,000 miles. Average carbon produced by the electricity to charge it in my region was 44.6g in 2018 (and will almost certainly be lower now). Using that as a baseline, my car “produces” 227g CO2e per mile. The average carbon emissions, according to ORR, of all passenger trains in 2021 is 234.4g CO2e per passenger per mile, which of course ignores carbon produced during construction of said trains.

For every mile more I cover in my EV, my carbon intensity lowers. For every extra passenger I carry, the figures also are reduced heavily again.

It is of course diesel trains dragging the co2 figures up for trains, and electric trains are much cleaner than my EV, not to mention the benefits of reduced traffic and wasted space by parked cars etc for public transport.

Whilst every extra passenger in a car does being the figure down, the vast majority of cars for the vast majority of the time have 1 person in them (overall average is 1.2 to 1.4 people per car).

Whilst EV cars are getting better (due to grow mix improvements), so will trains. In part due to the improvements in the grid mix, but also because of bimodals, more electrification, etc.

Also the comparison is between an EV and average rail use, if you did average car use, even in 2035, it would be significantly worse as there would still be petrol/diesel use.

Also, car users are more likely to use their cars for short trips rather than walk/cycle (such as those who drive 300m each way to take their kids to school); as such there's likely to be some unnecessary miles by car which would also tip the balance away from EV's and towards rail for being green.

Of course the energy and environmental cost of the car batteries also tip the balance towards rail.
 

Robert Ambler

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After some quick Googling, my 2016 EV is estimated to have produced 9,714kg CO2e during production, and has now covered 53,000 miles. Average carbon produced by the electricity to charge it in my region was 44.6g in 2018 (and will almost certainly be lower now). Using that as a baseline, my car “produces” 227g CO2e per mile. The average carbon emissions, according to ORR, of all passenger trains in 2021 is 234.4g CO2e per passenger per mile, which of course ignores carbon produced during construction of said trains.

For every mile more I cover in my EV, my carbon intensity lowers. For every extra passenger I carry, the figures also are reduced heavily again.

It is of course diesel trains dragging the co2 figures up for trains, and electric trains are much cleaner than my EV, not to mention the benefits of reduced traffic and wasted space by parked cars etc for public transport.
I don't think you are comparing like with like and I don't think you can use the figures for rail in 2021 as a true comparator. I also suspect the ORR figure you state includes all carbon emissions for the rail sector in its figure (energy used at stations and for infrastructure maintenance etc) divided by the number of passenger km. If you were to include these figures for your car the CO2 per km figure would be much higher.
The ORR actually state that the average carbon emissions for passenger trains in the UK (2019-20) is only 35.1g CO2 per KM.
 

Mag_seven

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Can we drop the discussion about electric vehicles please and stick to the topic at hand which is the postponement of Swanage to Wareham.

Thanks
 

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