Swansea Mum's Horror as Daughter is Left Alone

[BestWestern]

Its not a case of not telling them, you just tell them what you are doing and not what you going to do, if they would give you permission I doubt your Controllers are that much different to ours. Ours love a solution! So we just say "this is the problem, and what we have done is...." etc... None of our side have ever been hauled in for that. I say within acceptable parameters, we don't authorise cancellations, crew changes etc, and we normally check on diversions.



I'm very saddended to hear that :cry:

I should probably clarify, having re-read that. He didn't commit suicide, I was using 'hanged' in the railway sense, as in stitched himself up. I shall amend the post, apologies. Badly written.

 

[island]

As for trolley stewards, the simple answer is that they are employed simply to serve refreshments, and anything more would cost money.

Indeed, and some may not even have more than a minor relationship with the TOC.

 

[Flamingo]

Been reading the debate about Control with interest.

As far as I am concerned, we ring Control so that:
1. We cover our arrse (most importantly).
2. Everybody knows what's going on and if there will be any action needed in relation to whatever is going on, they can start doing it.

Control is just what the name says - they control and co-ordinate. For them to do their job, they need to know what's going on.

Ringing them is not necessarily the person on the ground looking for permission ( although that does come into it) but using them as a resource that can help, offer advice, and ultimately, help make an informed decision away from whatever pressure or emotion the person on the ground is under.

I agree with Ferret and GW, I would certainly not make any "out of course" decisions without letting Control know beforehand, in fact, as a Guard I would have much more input with control than the Signaller. I leave the driver to make the call to the Signaller.

 

[swj99]

It's interesting to see so much debate about the rules relating to reversing trains, but the fundamental issue seems to be that, according to the news report, a train left a station before a passenger had been able to get off.

Can anyone offer any constructive suggestions as to why this scenario might have arisen and perhaps suggest realistic ways for it to be avoided in the future ?

 

[Tomnick]

I think the best way to avoid trains leaving stations before passengers have got off is for passengers to get themselves ready in good time! There's usually plenty of advance warning of stations, especially where announcements are made automatically. It's not practical to ensure that everyone's off who wants to be off before closing the doors - not without significantly extended dwell times and therefore longer journey times - so it seems reasonable to close the doors once everyone appears to have finished boarding and alighting.

 

[TG]

It's interesting to see so much debate about the rules relating to reversing trains, but the fundamental issue seems to be that, according to the news report, a train left a station before a passenger had been able to get off.

Can anyone offer any constructive suggestions as to why this scenario might have arisen and perhaps suggest realistic ways for it to be avoided in the future ?

i did but it got ignored!!!!

 

[PHILIPE]

Remember that if you played about reversing back to Gowerton, you would tie up 2 tracks due to Single Line stretch (Not for much longer though as it is in the process of being re-doubled)

 

[island]

I think the best way to avoid trains leaving stations before passengers have got off is for passengers to get themselves ready in good time! There's usually plenty of advance warning of stations, especially where announcements are made automatically. It's not practical to ensure that everyone's off who wants to be off before closing the doors - not without significantly extended dwell times and therefore longer journey times - so it seems reasonable to close the doors once everyone appears to have finished boarding and alighting.

Passengers taking responsibility for their own actions? Ha!

 

[Tomnick]

A bit of hopeless optimism never hurt anyone .

 

[soil]

There's a difference?

Oh wait, that's not real life - any more than there being a paedo sitting around a dark station on the off chance a nine year old girl is presented to him...

No things like that never happen, do they? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-18345586

 

[NSEFAN]

No things like that never happen, do they?

I don't think people are saying things like that don't happen, more they are not as common as we might think. "Nothing bad happened" isn't going to be reported in the press, is it?

 

[fsmr]

I think the best way to avoid trains leaving stations before passengers have got off is for passengers to get themselves ready in good time! There's usually plenty of advance warning of stations, especially where announcements are made automatically. It's not practical to ensure that everyone's off who wants to be off before closing the doors - not without significantly extended dwell times and therefore longer journey times - so it seems reasonable to close the doors once everyone appears to have finished boarding and alighting.

The issue here though was that the lady and daughter were not sitting together and due to the “passenger revenue extraction machine”, sorry refreshment trolley, she couldn't get to her before the stop and was told by the operator to use separate doors which allegedly didn't open on the mothers end. The daughter got off but mother was unable to and tried to get past the trolley but was too late. We canb debate failure rate on doors opening till we are blue but at that point, the person on the trolley should have used some initiative and hit the paxcom as we have already established they don't have a radio which would have been a simple matter of "wait a second" to the guard. But no doubt there is some rule that he is not allowed to interfere with operations

What a joke the railways have become now under privatisation, no one willing to go the mile or take ownership for a potentially life threatening situation
Yes i know it turned out ok in the end but as we know , it does not always
So sad we even have to discuss this

Can you imagine flying with trolley dollies that have no safety training or ability to help passengers in an emergency or contact the flight deck
No sorry we just smile and sell you coffee and cake:roll:

. Many airlines even train their cabin crew in basic aircraft operation to help out the flight crew if one becomes incapacitated or look out for issues developing with engines etc., although some airlines have been reprimanded in official investigation reports as well for cabin crew not intervening to alert the flight crew to a dangerous occurrence.

 

[Greenback]

The issue here though was that the lady and daughter were not sitting together and due to the “passenger revenue extraction machine”, sorry refreshment trolley, she couldn't get to her before the stop and was told by the operator to use separate doors which allegedly didn't open on the mothers end.

I agree that this is a likely explanation of what happened, but I don't think it's clear that the mother was instructed by the trolley person to go to another door.

The daughter got off but mother was unable to and tried to get past the trolley but was too late. We canb debate failure rate on doors opening till we are blue but at that point, the person on the trolley should have used some initiative and hit the paxcom as we have already established they don't have a radio which would have been a simple matter of "wait a second" to the guard. But no doubt there is some rule that he is not allowed to interfere with operations

Once again we have speculation about who was where and did what. The trolley would most likely have been in the carriage, not the vestibule, so my guess is that the person in charge of the trolley would have been completely unaware of the mother failing to get off.

It appears from the report that the mother, on failing to get off and the train starting to move, sounded the alarm which brought the guard along. Ther eis no reason to believe that the trolley operative was anywhere near the vestibule.

What a joke the railways have become now under privatisation, no one willing to go the mile or take ownership for a potentially life threatening situation
Yes i know it turned out ok in the end but as we know , it does not always
So sad we even have to discuss this

Do you have any suggestions about how such an event can be avoided in the future? The only thing I can think of is is having the guard walk up and down the train satisfying themselves that everyone who wants tog et off, has got off, before locking the doors!

Can you imagine flying with trolley dollies that have no safety training or ability to help passengers in an emergency or contact the flight deck
No sorry we just smile and sell you coffee and cake:roll:

Of course trolley staff try and help passengers when they can. I see it almost every day on that route. The trolley can be a pain on busy trains, but the staff will always do what they can. They are pressured into walking up and down the train to maximise sales, and they can't really help it if they find themselves in the middle of a carriage serving tea and coffee when it is suddenly at a station, particularly a request stop which may not stop at all.

Many airlines even train their cabin crew in basic aircraft operation to help out the flight crew if one becomes incapacitated or look out for issues developing with engines etc., although some airlines have been reprimanded in official investigation reports as well for cabin crew not intervening to alert the flight crew to a dangerous occurrence.

Aicraft are somewhat different to trains, so I am not convinced of the relevance of these observations to the current discussion.

 

[Flamingo]

Going off-topic a little for the benefit of FSMR, the trolley is provided as a customer service under franchise conditions. I am fairly sure that railway on-board catering is lucky to break even revenue-wise, and most TOC's would get rid if they could (hence it being a franchise obligation).

(The rest of your post, by the way, is an ill-informed rant. ).

 

[fsmr]

I agree that this is a likely explanation of what happened, but I don't think it's clear that the mother was instructed by the trolley person to go to another door.
.

You obviously haven't read the report

"It was a nice family day out, we'd done a little bit of shopping as well with my friend and her 10-year-old son. We got the train from Cardiff to Gowerton, and my daughter saw a friend sitting a few rows behind us, so went to talk to them. As we were approaching Gowerton, I said to my daughter to come to me so we could get off together."

But a food trolley was blocking the aisle, cutting her off from her daughter.

"I asked if the man could move the trolley so she could come through, and he said no, and told us we'd have to use different exits," claimed Miss Richards, of Glan yr Afon, Bryngwyn Village, Gorseinon.

"We used different exits, and as we were pressing the buttons to get off at our exit, they wouldn't open. We then squeezed past the trolley to try the other doors, when the train started moving."

Now not all customers can be relied on to tell the truth but it strikes me that something went one here which was avoidable by the TOC or its food franchiser

I am not suggesting the guard goes along checking all the doors, but there was a person on the ground that was aware of the situation allegedly and did nothing. It seems to me that in this occasion, the trolley service was severely lacking in customer satisfaction skills and like it or not, it is still perceived as part of the train crew by Joe Public

It seems some of you on here have a very arrogant attitude to your customers and Joe public and that the railway is always correct and the passengers at fault be it cases like this or ticket irregularities or car / truck drivers at LC’s.
I am sure there are plenty who do try it on with tickets or get confused about opening the doors at stations but that doesn't excuse situations like this.

The obvious lesson from here is to keep the coaches clear of obstruction on approach to stations, which some on another thread about trolleys say is the norm on their routes, and TBH on our line to Leicester from Oakham with cross country, I haven't had an issue with the catering trolley although it is usually so full of standing PAX that the trolley cannot be used

 

[D1009]

You obviously haven't read the report

"It was a nice family day out, we'd done a little bit of shopping as well with my friend and her 10-year-old son. We got the train from Cardiff to Gowerton, and my daughter saw a friend sitting a few rows behind us, so went to talk to them. As we were approaching Gowerton, I said to my daughter to come to me so we could get off together."

But a food trolley was blocking the aisle, cutting her off from her daughter.

"I asked if the man could move the trolley so she could come through, and he said no, and told us we'd have to use different exits," claimed Miss Richards, of Glan yr Afon, Bryngwyn Village, Gorseinon.

"We used different exits, and as we were pressing the buttons to get off at our exit, they wouldn't open. We then squeezed past the trolley to try the other doors, when the train started moving."

Now not all customers can be relied on to tell the truth but it strikes me that something went one here which was avoidable by the TOC or its food franchiser

I am not suggesting the guard goes along checking all the doors, but there was a person on the ground that was aware of the situation allegedly and did nothing. It seems to me that in this occasion, the trolley service was severely lacking in customer satisfaction skills and like it or not, it is still perceived as part of the train crew by Joe Public

It seems some of you on here have a very arrogant attitude to your customers and Joe public and that the railway is always correct and the passengers at fault be it cases like this or ticket irregularities or car / truck drivers at LC’s.
I am sure there are plenty who do try it on with tickets or get confused about opening the doors at stations but that doesn't excuse situations like this.

The obvious lesson from here is to keep the coaches clear of obstruction on approach to stations, which some on another thread about trolleys say is the norm on their routes, and TBH on our line to Leicester from Oakham with cross country, I haven't had an issue with the catering trolley although it is usually so full of standing PAX that the trolley cannot be used

Why do so many on this thread believe everything they read in the papers?