Swindon-Woking - via Bath?

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soil

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National Rail.co.uk says that the £31/£39 return fare for Swindon-Woking is valid via Bath, but not via Basingstoke and Reading. It usually suggests Swindon-Reading-Guildford-Woking, but Swindon-Reading-Basingstoke-Woking is also logical, however Woking-Bath-Swindon seems crazy?
 
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Lrd

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It's presumably an advance fare or there is engineering work, what date are you looking for?

I am searching for today and can see itinerarys for:
  • Swindon > Reading > Basingstoke > Woking
  • Swindon > Reading > North Camp > Walk to Ash Vale > Woking
  • Swindon > Reading > Guildford > Woking
Welcome to the forums.
 

soil

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The North Camp and Guildford options are the same train (Reading-Gatwick/Redhill)

There is another option on that same train:

Swindon-Reading-Farnborough North-walk to Farnborough Main-Woking.

If you select 'via Basingstoke', no return fares appear, I assume because it's further that way than via Guildford.

However selecting 'via Bath Spa', for any day, today works, but any other day also, and it shows return fare '£31' (which is the same return fare you get for the more logical itinerary 'via Guildford')

The routing Swindon-Bath-Salisbury-Woking is shown as valid, but Swindon-Bath-Reading-Guildford-Woking is not.

It seems a little odd especially given that you can break the journey and travel to say Salisbury on the way, which is a fairly pricey ticket from Swindon.
 

sonic2009

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Welcome to the forum.

I am on the smartphone at the moment, so i will do my best to explain, other members will come and explain soon, were a friendly bunch :)

To define a permitted route from Swindon - Woking we have to look at the Roueting Guide :http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide.

Swindon (WILTS) is its own routeing point
Woking is its own routeing point

The following routes are always permitted :

- Any direct trains advertised from SWINDON (WILTS) to WOKING in the current timetable
- The shortest route with a "regular"train service, not including walks and transfers (71.34 miles) which is shown below :

* SWINDON (WILTS)
* DIDCOT PARKWAY
* CHOLSEY
* GORING & STRTLEY
* PANGBOURNE
* TILEHURST
* READING
* EARLEY
* WINNERSH TRANGLE
* WINNERSH
* WOKINGHAM
* BRACKNELL
* MARTINS HERON
* ASCOT (BERKS)
* SUNNINGDALE
* LONGCROSS
* VIRGINIA WATER
* CHERTSEY
* ADDLESTONE
* BYFLEET & NEW H
* WEST BYFLEET
* WOKING

The following are Permitted unless there is an easement preventing them.

- Any route 74.34 miles or less (i.e. within 3 miles of the shortest route above).

- Mapped routes
from SWINDON (WILTS) to Woking

LW + WX

WR+CS+PD

WR+WX+LONDON+WX

WR+LONDON+WX

WR+WX+LONDON+WV+WX

WR+LONDON+WV+WX

WR+LONDON+WX+WV

WR+WX+LONDON+WX+WV

Maps can be found under Section D at the website i have given above.

For your query Swindon - Woking would be valid on maps LW + WX by going :

Swindon - Bath Spa - Westbury - Salisbury - Basingstoke - Woking

Hope this helps.

This easy site here can offer more help : http://trainscanbecheaper.info/



Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
 

soil

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Thanks for the info. I see you can route via CLJ, but this counts as London, so the fare goes up to £46.50 from £31.

That reduces routing options to just

LW + WX

and
WR+CS+PD

I guess Swindon-Bristol Parkway-Salisbury-Woking is the longest possible routing.

I looked at LW, and that takes you from Swindon to Reading. WX routes from Reading to Woking, via CLJ which would be a more expensive fare (London)

WR gets you from Swindon to Reading, then CS from Reading to Guildford, and PD from Guildford to Woking. No mapped link includes Basingstoke.

I see that the 'shortest route with a regular train service' is a nonsense as it's defined using the Addlestone-Woking service which runs only once per day in each direction.

So the shortest route is not the 71.34 miles, but 72.39 miles via Weybridge. Even so, 80.21 miles via Reading and Basingstoke is still 5 miles too far.

Shortest route is Swindon-Farnborough North walk to Main, Main-Woking, at 56.97 miles + 8.87 miles = 65.84 miles + walk. Which is more reasonable than routing based on a 1-a-day train service....
 

John @ home

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Thanks for the info. I see you can route via CLJ, but this counts as London, so the fare goes up to £46.50 from £31.
No. "London" is defined here.

A £31 Super Off-Peak Return Swindon - Woking route Not London is Permitted via Clapham Jn using map combination LW+WX:

LW: Swindon - Didcot Parkway - Reading Group
WX: Reading Group - Wokingham - Ascot - Staines - Feltham - Twickenham - Richmond - Barnes - Clapham Jn - Wimbledon - Surbiton - Woking.

Southern will sell you this ticket (search for Swindon - Woking via Twickenham) and, if you decide not to use it, its Money Back Guarantee will apply as long as you don't collect the ticket.
 

soil

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No. "London" is defined here.

A £31 Super Off-Peak Return Swindon - Woking route Not London is Permitted via Clapham Jn using map combination LW+WX:

LW: Swindon - Didcot Parkway - Reading Group
WX: Reading Group - Wokingham - Ascot - Staines - Feltham - Twickenham - Richmond - Barnes - Clapham Jn - Wimbledon - Surbiton - Woking.

Southern will sell you this ticket (search for Swindon - Woking via Twickenham) and, if you decide not to use it, its Money Back Guarantee will apply as long as you don't collect the ticket.


Ok, I see now what the problem is.

If I select 'via CLJ' it uses the fast route from Swindon to Paddington, and then the fast train from Waterloo to Woking, calling at CLJ only (linking the two by tube), as this is quicker than the fast train from Swindon to Reading, and then the (stopping) train from Reading to CLJ. Selecting via Twickenham, or Virginia Water, or whatever, forces it to use the Reading-CLJ train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The cheapest day return is apparently:

Swindon-Didcot Parkway (valid after 9:30am, and any time during the evening) £9.90
Didcot Parkway-Brookwood £9
Brookwood-Woking £3.40 super off-peak day return (after 11:16), or £4 off-peak

The £31 super off-peak return Swindon-Woking is blacked out on the Swindon-Reading section until after 10:30am outbound, and inbound is blacked out on Reading-Swindon between 3:30pm and 7pm, so the day return this way is much more flexible.

Simple question first, if I hold
Swindon-Didcot Parkway
and
Didcot Parkway - Reading

then I can board a train at Swindon bound for Reading, if it stops at Didcot Parkway, but I cannot use the fastest trains, stopping only at Swindon and Reading and passing through Didcot Parkway at great speed without stopping?

Moving on and considering the route Didcot Parkway-Brookwood, it shows shortest route:

Didcot-Reading
Reading-Ash (Reading-Redhill slow train)
Ash-Ash Vale (Ascot-Guildford branch line)

Then from Ash Vale change for the Waterloo line, stopping at Brookood and then Woking.

Beside the Swindon-Didcot Parkway-Reading annoyance, Reading-Ash-Ash Vale-Woking is a bit silly.

There are a number of routes defined for Didcot Parkway-Brookwood, but I don't find it entirely comprehensible.

It says however that permitted routes Didcot Parkway-Woking are permitted for Didcot Parkway-Brookwood, which I take it means that you can take any valid Didcot Parkway-Woking route, then tack on a Woking-Brookwood single, assuming that it doesn't involve doubling back.

In the case of our (Didcot Parkway-)Reading-Guildford-Woking route, it doesn't pass through Brookwood, so in theory we'd do Woking-Brookwood and then come back again.

Would it be legal to simply alight at Woking, holding a Didcot Parkway-Brookwood off-peak day return, and therefore to dispense with buying the Brookwood-Woking ticket entirely?

If it would not be legal, would it then be legal to alight at Woking if one DID hold a Brookwood-Woking ticket?

In otherwords you hold Didcot Parkway-Brookwood and Brookwood-Woking, which would be a legal set of tickets for the trains:

Didcot Parkway-Brookwood ticket:

Didcot Parkway-Reading
Reading-Guildford
Guildford-Woking
Woking-Brookwood

Brookwood-Woking ticket
Brookwood-Woking

but you simply optimise Woking-Brookwood-Woking out as a net zero, and omit to travel it?

(If it is not legal to do that, the next best option is to alight at North Camp on the Reading-Guildford train, walk to Ash Vale, and then catch the Ash Vale-Woking train, which passes through Brookwood.)

I see that there is some discussion of getting off early on Advance tickets, but these say:

"You may not start, break and resume, or end your journey at any intermediate station except to change to/from connecting trains as shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary"

whereas this Off Peak Day Return says

"A break of journey is permitted on both the outward and return portions off an Off-Peak Day Return unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's Restriction Code."

So you can quite legitimately break your Didcot Parkway-Brookwood journey at Woking I guess, thereby dispensing with the need to actually hold a ticket to Woking, because you'd be getting off there to 'break'. And presumably they can't force you to ever perform the rest of it, and there'd be no record on the return part of the ticket that you had not done so....
 
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John @ home

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The £31 super off-peak return Swindon-Woking is blacked out on the Swindon-Reading section until after 10:30am outbound, and inbound is blacked out on Reading-Swindon between 3:30pm and 7pm, so the day return this way is much more flexible.
For the exact wording, see Validity Code XC.
if I hold
Swindon-Didcot Parkway
and
Didcot Parkway - Reading

then I can board a train at Swindon bound for Reading, if it stops at Didcot Parkway, but I cannot use the fast trains, stopping only at Swindon at Reading and passing through Didcot Parkway at great speed without stopping?
That's correct. See Condition 19 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.
It says however that permitted routes Didcot Parkway-Woking are permitted for Didcot Parkway-Brookwood
Sorry, I get a bit lost here. Which document says that permitted routes Didcot Parkway - Woking are permitted for Didcot Parkway - Brookwood?

It seems to me that Woking is not an appropriate Routeing Point for a Didcot Parkway - Brookwood journey because it fails the fares check. See National Routeing Guide Instructions Step 4. Comparing Standard Anytime Day Single (SDS) fares route Not London, Didcot Parkway - Brookwood is £17.30 and Didcot Parkway - Woking £21.50.

My calculation is that the appropriate Routeing Points for a Didcot Parkway - Brookwood journey are Ash Vale and Farnborough Group.
Would it be legal to simply alight at Woking, holding a Didcot Parkway-Brookwood off-peak day return, and therefore to dispense with buying the Brookwood-Woking ticket entirely?

If it would not be legal, would it then be legal to alight at Woking if one DID hold a Brookwood-Woking ticket?
I think these questions are based on the mistaken assumption that a Didcot Parkway - Brookwood ticket is permitted via Woking.
 

soil

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Sorry, I get a bit lost here. Which document says that permitted routes Didcot Parkway - Woking are permitted for Didcot Parkway - Brookwood?

It seems to me that Woking is not an appropriate Routeing Point for a Didcot Parkway - Brookwood journey because it fails the fares check. See National Routeing Guide Instructions Step 4. Comparing Standard Anytime Day Single (SDS) fares route Not London, Didcot Parkway - Brookwood is £17.30 and Didcot Parkway - Woking £21.50.
.

I see.

BROOKWOOD is associated with these routeing points: ASH VALE, Farnborough Group, WOKING.

Didcot Parkway - Farnborough is £14.20
Didcot Parkway - Ash Vale is £16.40
Didcot Parkway - Woking is £21.50
Didcot Parkway - Brookwood is £17.30

So Farnborough and Ash Vale are both valid, but Woking is not.

(http://trainscanbecheaper.info/ told me that it was.)

Incidentally the shortest route is 46.65 miles, and the route via Guildford and Woking is 52.74 miles, so that would fail also.

It says:

From DIDCOT PARKWAY to BROOKWOOD via GUILDFORD and WOKING
Permitted by map CS+WX 6.09m over min distance

But CS and WX are for Woking, which as you say is not valid....

So you would buy:

Swindon-Didcot Parkway £9.90
Didcot Parkway-Brookwood £9
Brookwood-Woking £4/£3.40

so £22.90 or £22.30

and route:
Swindon-Reading (stopping at Didcot Parkway)
Reading-North Camp
walk to Ash Vale
Ash Vale-Woking (all trains call at Brookwood)

This is actually not a bad route, the only problem is that the Ash Vale-Woking service is much less frequent than the Guildford-Woking service, and you might struggle to make your connection:

Reading-North Camp arriving 33, 57 minutes past the hour
Ash Vale-Woking departing 39, 09 minutes past the hour

Best I remember it's downhill from North Camp to Ash Vale.... Half-a-mile, so you should make the 09 from the 57 arrival, but not the 39 from the 39.....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
So it seems that you cannot buy a ticket to either Farnborough Main or Farnborough North, but only to 'Farnborough Stations'.

That being so, and with the shortest route to Farnborough Main from Didcot Parkway being 45.85 miles (via Bramley, Hants), and to Farnborough North only 32.81 miles, can I travel on any route up to 48.85 miles, or only up to 35.81 miles?

Didcot Parkway - Farnborough costs £8.30 day return

One route you could follow without doubling back would be:

Didcot Parkway-North Camp (34.80 miles)
(walk)
Ash Vale-Brookwood (4.51 miles)
Brookwood-Farnborough Main (5.21 miles)

This, at 44.51 miles, is shorter than the shortest route to Farnborough Main, but way over the longest to Farnborough North.

Is it allowable? Or do you have to go by the closer of the two stations in the group?

The intention here is that the ticket is 70p cheaper than the Didcot Parkway - Brookwood ticket, and you would use it to travel short to Brookwood...
 
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SickyNicky

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BROOKWOOD is associated with these routeing points: ASH VALE, Farnborough Group, WOKING.

Didcot Parkway - Farnborough is £14.20
Didcot Parkway - Ash Vale is £16.40
Didcot Parkway - Woking is £21.50
Didcot Parkway - Brookwood is £17.30

So Farnborough and Ash Vale are both valid, but Woking is not.

(http://trainscanbecheaper.info/ told me that it was.)

I think that http://trainscanbecheaper.info/ is looking at the ANY PERMITTED fare rather that the NOT VIA LONDON fare. Woking is an appropriate routeing point for ANY PERMITTED as the single is cheaper, but is not one for NOT VIA LONDON.

I'm not sure whether this is a bug or not - maybe they should allow the user to select a route for the ticket before showing permitted routes (if there is more than one common route available)?
 

SickyNicky

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Trainscanbecheaper currently offers permitted routes for any permitted fares only, or the most expensive route where there is no any permitted. I never thought about a situation where a cheaper route would bar some routeing points that are allowed by the any permitted.

I will think about offering the user the choice of route where available - it can probably be done.
 

John @ home

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So Farnborough and Ash Vale are both valid, but Woking is not.
Agreed. Ash Vale and Farnborough Group are the appropriate Routeing Points for a Didcot Parkway - Brookwood route Not Via London journey. Woking is not.
TrainsCanBeCheaper, a private, unofficial web site, states
Permitted routes from DIDCOT PARKWAY to BROOKWOOD

  • DIDCOT PARKWAY is a routeing point.
  • BROOKWOOD is associated with these routeing points: ASH VALE, Farnborough Group, WOKING.
http://trainscanbecheaper.info/
That is correct. But TrainsCanBeCheaper does not go on to perform the fares check to calculate which of these three RPs are the appropriate one(s) to use for this particular journey by the route "Not Via London".

TrainsCanBeCheaper is one of a number of sites which have appeared following the release of fares, routeing and distance data previously restricted to rail industry use. I am impressed by the quality of these sites but they can only be as accurate as the base data. Unfortunately, this is not very accurate.

TCBC's explanation here of one of the site's current limitations is very helpful.
the shortest route is 46.65 miles, and the route via Guildford and Woking is 52.74 miles
Care needs to be taken when using this distance information calculated to the hundredth of a mile. This is the distance information supplied to the booking engines, but it is not the distance information which forms the basis of the passenger's contract. "The shortest route is calculated by reference to the National Rail Timetable" (NRG Instructions page 1). Both contain inaccuracies.
Note that the data on shortest routes with a "regular" service is defined by ATOC and is known to contain errors and dubious assumptions. Technically you should use the National Rail Timetable to obtain this information, but the quality of that data is even worse.

http://trainscanbecheaper.info/
In the Bridgeton to Kings Park via Newton thread, we discussed an example where a route was more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route according to the data used by the routeing engines, but less than 3 miles longer according to the data specified in the passenger's contract. It is therefore a Permitted Route.
so that would fail also
The fact that a route is more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route does not prevent it being a valid mapped route.
It says:

From DIDCOT PARKWAY to BROOKWOOD via GUILDFORD and WOKING
Permitted by map CS+WX 6.09m over min distance

But CS and WX are for Woking, which as you say is not valid....
Agreed. All entries under the heading "Mapped routes from DIDCOT PARKWAY to WOKING" in TrainsCanBeCheaper should be discarded because Woking is not an appropriate Routeing Point for a Didcot Parkway - Brookwood route Not Via London journey.
it seems that you cannot buy a ticket to either Farnborough Main or Farnborough North, but only to 'Farnborough Stations'.
Agreed. Some stations are grouped together with common prices for travel to any station in the group. Tickets issued to or from these station groups are available at any station in the group, subject to route availability. Other than some local journeys, tickets are issued to and from the named group station. See also Station group (railway).
with the shortest route to Farnborough Main from Didcot Parkway being 45.85 miles (via Bramley, Hants), and to Farnborough North only 32.81 miles, can I travel on any route up to 48.85 miles, or only up to 35.81 miles? ... Or do you have to go by the closer of the two stations in the group?
This is not adequately defined. My opinion is that a passenger who asks at Didcot Parkway booking office for a ticket to Farnborough Main is entitled by page 1 of the NRG Instructions to travel by the shortest route by rail to Farnborough Main, subject to any route restriction shown on the ticket (in this instance the ticket is by Any Permitted route), and that the entitlement is not diminished by the ticket being issued to Farnborough Stations, not Farnborough Main.

Others take a different view. See, for example, this post by kwvr45.
 

SickyNicky

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TrainsCanBeCheaper will now offer you a choice of ticket routes when looking at the list of permitted routes when a fares check is needed.

Thanks to all for the suggestion.
 

soil

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Just to clarify,
Didcot Parkway - Woking Any Permitted route (i.e. via Paddington and Waterloo) is £39.50 SDS,
Didcot Parkway - Brookwood Any Permitted route is £41.50.

Whereas on the much more sensible 'Not Via London' route, the costs are £21.50 and £17.30 respectively.
 
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