SWML Strategic Study

[DerekC]

If Crossrail 2 happens might there be pressure for Wimbledon main line calls, particularly if the Balham route is selected?

 

[The Ham]

If Crossrail 2 happens might there be pressure for Wimbledon main line calls, particularly if the Balham route is selected?

I would suspect that there would be some extra calls, however likely to be limited in number, chances are most using Crossrail 2 would switch at Clapham Junction (assuming that's sorted so that all services can stop there).

 

[evergreenadam]

I would suspect that there would be some extra calls, however likely to be limited in number, chances are most using Crossrail 2 would switch at Clapham Junction (assuming that's sorted so that all services can stop there).

I don’t think the study envisages extra Wimbledon calls as that would affect their track capacity calculations.

 

[The Ham]

I don’t think the study envisages extra Wimbledon calls as that would affect their track capacity calculations.

Maybe, although it does depend on what paths are created by using the slows post Crossrail 2 and how Wimbledon and others retain their services to Waterloo.

For instance of a call at Wimbledon means that a faster service doesn't catch a slower service up, then it could be worth adding it as a stop.

 

[kevin_roche]

If Crossrail 2 happens might there be pressure for Wimbledon main line calls, particularly if the Balham route is selected?

There might be pressure, but the whole idea is that Crossrail 2 is separate and traffic is moved so it splits between Crossrail 2 and the Northern Line, so no plans, currently, to let people from south of Woking use it for trips into central London.

 

[infobleep]

There might be pressure, but the whole idea is that Crossrail 2 is separate and traffic is moved so it splits between Crossrail 2 and the Northern Line, so no plans, currently, to let people from south of Woking use it for trips into central London.

Personally I see it as a kind of Thaneslink. So you can avoid changing trains in central London to get to somewhere else in London or beyond.

 

[The Ham]

Personally I see it as a kind of Thaneslink. So you can avoid changing trains in central London to get to somewhere else in London or beyond.

Indeed, few are going to catch a train to Waterloo and then have a bad route to Kings Cross of they can change at Clapham to get there more easily.

 

[cle]

It's just like Crossrail 1 - taking over a busy commuter route (Shenfield locals especially) - relieving a terminus and sending folks on a one-seat ride into the centre, relieving the tube.

As for the northern side, it's not as clear. But the southern side is very much a Crossrail 1 solution - main difference being the routing away from the traditional terminus. There will still be Waterloo/City demand, vs. Victoria line punters - and so I'd expect a good amount of interchanging at Clapham Junction, but also Tottenham Court Road for CR1. Vauxhall and the Victoria line would likely to be the biggest beneficiaries.

Not to be speculative here, BUT it's a shame there is no NLE connection at Vauxhall, or short extension to Clapham Junction. An upgraded northern line at 30tph would and indeed could, be very useful for dispersing SWT and Southern passengers directly into Waterloo, the West End and up to Euston/St P/KX. At least as another route in, and potentially with a seat - even if a few mins slower.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not to be speculative here, BUT it's a shame there is no NLE connection at Vauxhall, or short extension to Clapham Junction. An upgraded northern line at 30tph would and indeed could, be very useful for dispersing SWT and Southern passengers directly into Waterloo, the West End and up to Euston/St P/KX. At least as another route in, and potentially with a seat - even if a few mins slower.

I’m reasonably sure a NLE extension to Clapham Jn has been shown to overwhelm the Northern line in passenger modelling. Also it would have to be built in a way that won’t interfere with either Crossrail 2 or the station redevelopment, which is no mean feat.

 

[HSTEd]

I’m reasonably sure a NLE extension to Clapham Jn has been shown to overwhelm the Northern line in passenger modelling. Also it would have to be built in a way that won’t interfere with either Crossrail 2 or the station redevelopment, which is no mean feat.

Would that be the Northern Line as it currently exists, or after a future split?

 

[evergreenadam]

It's just like Crossrail 1 - taking over a busy commuter route (Shenfield locals especially) - relieving a terminus and sending folks on a one-seat ride into the centre, relieving the tube.

As for the northern side, it's not as clear. But the southern side is very much a Crossrail 1 solution - main difference being the routing away from the traditional terminus. There will still be Waterloo/City demand, vs. Victoria line punters - and so I'd expect a good amount of interchanging at Clapham Junction, but also Tottenham Court Road for CR1. Vauxhall and the Victoria line would likely to be the biggest beneficiaries.

Not to be speculative here, BUT it's a shame there is no NLE connection at Vauxhall, or short extension to Clapham Junction. An upgraded northern line at 30tph would and indeed could, be very useful for dispersing SWT and Southern passengers directly into Waterloo, the West End and up to Euston/St P/KX. At least as another route in, and potentially with a seat - even if a few mins slower.

I remember reading that it had been projected that Vauxhall would have been overwhelmed if the NLE had incorporated a stop there, hence the decision to build a separate station at Nine Elms which also spreads out the tube station catchment areas.

 

[Class 170101]

I’m reasonably sure a NLE extension to Clapham Jn has been shown to overwhelm the Northern line in passenger modelling.

Vauxhall as just noted above seems familiar to me for being mentioned as a problem issue Beyond that not sure why extending NLE to Clapham Junction would overwhelm the Northern Line as surely all that would happen is some people would migrate from Waterloo to Clapham Junction in order to get a seat / stand in comfort on the Northern Line rather than potentially stand in discomfort. Would be interested in the models assumptions especially now with home working becoming the in thing due to covid.

Also it would have to be built in a way that won’t interfere with either Crossrail 2 or the station redevelopment, which is no mean feat.

Tunnelling under most of Central London must be a challenge these days, its not just transport but water, gas, electric and sewage pipes down there, at least.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Interesting document but given SWR timetable consultation document has peak main line services at 21 for Dec 22 out of 24 that were in May 19 and the assumed threshold for reliability in planning rules not any immediate rush to do anything. Also with reduction of Guildford line services even makes doing anything at Woking less pressing as well. And then we have this statement on P41 of the SWR 2022 Timetable consultation document

How will you respond if passenger numbers recover more quickly, or new patterns of travelling emerge, before December 2022? Our comprehensive customer research does not suggest that this is likely. However, we view this outline specification as a baseline for the future and, working within the set parameters for timetable changes, SWR and Network Rail will discuss how best to respond to emerging travel patterns with the Department for Transport.

This rather kicks into the long grass assumptions being made by NR and would suggest the Low passenger recovery is the more likely outcome from the the NR route upgrade document meaning any major enhancements are not needed for sometime. That said I would be going for sorting out C.Jcn so everything on the Mains can stop there without lower capacity below 24TPH as that supports connectivity.

The last update to Rail Network Enhancements Pipeline Autumn 2019 Schemes Update had the following SW Schemes in it

Waiting on a Decision to Develop

Clapham Junction (Long Term) - To provide a permanent solution to passenger congestion at the station, including improved access to platforms and infrastructure to cope with demand.
Clapham Junction (short term) - To mitigate congestion at the station.

Waiting on a Decision to Design

Holden Recommendations: Output 1 Waterloo International Resignalling - Signalling enhancements to improve performance for train
services using Waterloo International Terminal, as recommended in the Holden Report.

South London High Voltage Grid: To ensure sufficient high voltage power supply is available to operate future train service specifications

Surbiton Congestion Relief: Additional station capacity to alleviate current passenger congestion issues and improve passenger experience’

Woking Capacity Enhancement: Facilitate an increase in the Main Line capacity, enabling up to eleven trains per hour at Woking at high peak time.

As to what the status of any of these schemes is clear and of course Dept of Transport haven't updated in over 18 months and probably wont until spending review is concluded this Autumn.

 

[Bald Rick]

Would that be the Northern Line as it currently exists, or after a future split?

Either

Tunnelling under most of Central London must be a challenge these days, its not just transport but water, gas, electric and sewage pipes down there, at least.

As I’ve posted elsewhere on these pages, after Crossrail 2 the parts of the central activity zone in London where you would want to put a railway are essentially full underground.

 

[stuu]

As I’ve posted elsewhere on these pages, after Crossrail 2 the parts of the central activity zone in London where you would want to put a railway are essentially full underground.

It would be interesting to see a 3D model of the underground infrastructure in Central London - would anyone have made such a thing?

 

[Bald Rick]

It would be interesting to see a 3D model of the underground infrastructure in Central London - would anyone have made such a thing?

The owners of a fair bit of what’s down there are not exactly keen for it to be public knowledge. Some is even classified (or at least was). Interestingly the deep tubes are by no means the deepest tunnels down there.

But the big obstructions are deep basements and piles for tall buildings. I always used to chuckle when a couple of Noble Lords proposed the ‘Euston Cross’ underground station for HS2. Its just not possible without digging up at least two of the British Library, UCH, the Met line, the Northern & Vic Line, and Euston itself.

 

[30907]

This rather kicks into the long grass assumptions being made by NR and would suggest the Low passenger recovery is the more likely outcome from the the NR route upgrade document meaning any major enhancements are not needed for sometime.

I doubt it boots the ball more than 5 years down the track - and in terms of a major enhancement like Woking, let alone an incredibly complex one like Clapham Jn, that is but a flash, a twinkling of an eye

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I doubt it boots the ball more than 5 years down the track - and in terms of a major enhancement like Woking, let alone an incredibly complex one like Clapham Jn, that is but a flash, a twinkling of an eye

It depends if Dept of Tranpsort operate a wait and see approach or not which is why i said get on with C.Jcn now as that has long run benefits on connectivity.

 

[Bald Rick]

It depends if Dept of Tranpsort operate a wait and see approach or not which is why i said get on with C.Jcn now as that has long run benefits on connectivity.

The Clapham Jn long term scheme is big bucks. Can’t see that happening for a while.

 

[Meerkat]

The Clapham Jn long term scheme is big bucks. Can’t see that happening for a while.

Fund it by building a load of shops and offices on top…….oh hang on…..

 

[Bald Rick]

Fund it by building a load of shops and offices on top…….oh hang on…..

You could put Canary Wharf on top and it wouldn’t fund it!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

You could put Canary Wharf on top and it wouldn’t fund it!

BR did pretty well flogging air rights in the 80's basically paid for the new sliding door trains Chris Green bought for LSE.

Japan Railways also improved there solvency massively by developing air rights over Tokyo stations.

Plenty of acreage to use at C.Jcn but unless you can shift the North side abutment of St Johns Hill o/b over you can't get a faster alignment into the station and that will need property acquisition so thats five years before you start. Quickest fix at C.Jcn would be build another o/b up the london end to link platforms 7 to 19.

 

[The Ham]

BR did pretty well flogging air rights in the 80's basically paid for the new sliding door trains Chris Green bought for LSE.

Japan Railways also improved there solvency massively by developing air rights over Tokyo stations.

Plenty of acreage to use at C.Jcn but unless you can shift the North side abutment of St Johns Hill o/b over you can't get a faster alignment into the station and that will need property acquisition so thats five years before you start. Quickest fix at C.Jcn would be build another o/b up the london end to link platforms 7 to 19.

If (and this runs the risk of taking the thread off subject) we were looking to sell air rights at Clapham Junction, the "safest" in terms of allowing future changes would be use the space above the sidings.

Although not as close as above the platforms still a fairly large area.

Edit:
Started a new thread to discuss further:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/could-we-sell-off-clapham-junctions-air-rights.220924/

 

[infobleep]

The Clapham Jn long term scheme is big bucks. Can’t see that happening for a while.

I can't see it happening ever because not only it's big bucks, there would be lots of disruption for people passing through whilst they did the work. I doubt there is much political benefit either.

I may yet be surprised though.