SWR £1489 Fine for Expired Railcard – Seeking Advice

[domes649]

The italicised sentence feels to me a bit argumentative - perhaps reword?

This sentence should go, as you're telling them they are doing it wrong
It would get my back up if I were SWR.
Just "regret that you are not able to confirm the exact dates" (assuming you can't find your bank accounts).

Thanks for the feedback - it's massively appreciated. Is this better?

Dear Prosecutions Team,


I am writing in response to the settlement offer I have received regarding my case.


I appreciate the opportunity to settle this matter and remain fully committed to resolving it fairly. However, I would like to request a breakdown of how the £1235.10 in "fare avoided" has been calculated, as I regret that I am not able to confirm the exact dates of the journeys included in this amount. I would be grateful if you could clarify which fares have been taken into account.


Additionally, I was previously asked to provide evidence of my historic railcards. As I explained to the investigator, my last railcard was linked to my university email, which has since been deactivated. I contacted Railcard support, and they confirmed that inactive accounts are deleted, meaning I have no way of retrieving this data.


I remain keen to resolve this matter as swiftly and amicably as possible. Please could you review my case and provide clarification on the fares included in the settlement amount?


I look forward to your response.


Best regards,

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for the feedback - it's massively appreciated. Is this better?

Dear Prosecutions Team,


I am writing in response to the settlement offer I have received regarding my case.


I appreciate the opportunity to settle this matter and remain fully committed to resolving it fairly. However, I would like to request a breakdown of how the £1235.10 in "fare avoided" has been calculated, as I regret that I am not able to confirm the exact dates of the journeys included in this amount. I would be grateful if you could clarify which fares have been taken into account.


Additionally, I was previously asked to provide evidence of my historic railcards. As I explained to the investigator, my last railcard was linked to my university email, which has since been deactivated. I contacted Railcard support, and they confirmed that inactive accounts are deleted, meaning I have no way of retrieving this data.


I remain keen to resolve this matter as swiftly and amicably as possible. Please could you review my case and provide clarification on the fares included in the settlement amount?


I look forward to your response.


Best regards,

ref this para could you even give them approximate dates? - even if it just covers the years - and maybe some info where you bought it from (ticket office / on line if so from where / Santander student card etc) this shows co-operation

eg

"However I believe I held a valid 16-25 Railcard (or whatever it was) from 202x until 202y" (add the time of year or season if you think it coincided with your start at university for example).

You could even add eg "unfortunately I did not retain these railcards after their expiry as I was unaware there was any obligation to do so"

Additionally, I was previously asked to provide evidence of my historic railcards. As I explained to the investigator, my last railcard was linked to my university email, which has since been deactivated. I contacted Railcard support, and they confirmed that inactive accounts are deleted, meaning I have no way of retrieving this data

 

[Fawkes Cat]

You could even add eg "unfortunately I did not retain these railcards after their expiry as I was unaware there was any obligation to do so" didn't think there would be any reason for anyone to want to see them."

This is perhaps beginning to split hairs, but there isn't any obligation to hang on to old railcards, so it doesn't seem right to suggest that you might think that there was. If nothing else, someone in the same position dealing with the same person in the railway office some time in the future might appreciate you not putting a false idea into the railway worker's head.

 

[WesternLancer]

This is perhaps beginning to split hairs, but there isn't any obligation to hang on to old railcards, so it doesn't seem right to suggest that you might think that there was. If nothing else, someone in the same position dealing with the same person in the railway office some time in the future might appreciate you not putting a false idea into the railway worker's head.

point well made and good amendment

 

[MarlowDonkey]

This is perhaps beginning to split hairs, but there isn't any obligation to hang on to old railcards, so it doesn't seem right to suggest that you might think that there was.

There needs to be some reform here. It seems that retailers are not under any obligation to retain records of expired railcards although some do. If TOCs are going to trawl through records of past ticket purchases looking for tickets bought with Railcard discounts, someone, somewhere needs to retain these records to prevent TOCs making spurious allegations.

 

[800Travel]

OP, did you pay for the railcard by card? If so, have you checked your bank statements for date of purchase? Hopefully Railcard could then retrieve the purchase information - if that was your point of purchase.

*Edit, upon checking thread again noticed OP checked bank statements and couldn't locate the purchase

 

[domes649]

Hello.

Thanks everyone for your help. They have replied to my query asking for the breakdown (attached). Unfortunately, my railcard was expired for longer than I'd realised so I'm being fined for over 2 months worth of journeys. They also found a gap in railcards (June-Sep 2023) where the same thing had happened (I hadn't realised the railcard was expired but bought a new one when I did).

Although I can't remember I think I will have just assumed I missed the email letting me know that my railcard was expiring rather than putting 2 and 2 together and realising it was going to my university email for some reason. This is confusing though as it says it's tied to my current email but having gone back and looked through my email, there is definitely no reminder there. Lesson learned the hard way though - I have set up a reminder myself now.

Another thing that's confusing me is that I spent hours trying to contact Railcard and Trainline to access my old Railcard info for evidence when clearly they had it the whole time.

If anyone has any advice, I'm all ears but it seems like there is no room for discussion really and I'm just going to have to find the money to pay it asap.

Thanks again!

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello.

Thanks everyone for your help. They have replied to my query asking for the breakdown (attached). Unfortunately, my railcard was expired for longer than I'd realised so I'm being fined for over 2 months worth of journeys. They also found a gap in railcards (June-Sep 2023) where the same thing had happened (I hadn't realised the railcard was expired but bought a new one when I did).

Although I can't remember I think I will have just assumed I missed the email letting me know that my railcard was expiring rather than putting 2 and 2 together and realising it was going to my university email for some reason. This is confusing though as it says it's tied to my current email but having gone back and looked through my email, there is definitely no reminder there. Lesson learned the hard way though - I have set up a reminder myself now.

Another thing that's confusing me is that I spent hours trying to contact Railcard and Trainline to access my old Railcard info for evidence when clearly they had it the whole time.

If anyone has any advice, I'm all ears but it seems like there is no room for discussion really and I'm just going to have to find the money to pay it asap.

Thanks again!

Just a couple of points

- you would not necessarily have been sent an e-mail by anyone about your railcard expiring - different railcard vendors seem to have different policies (I buy my railcard from the station ticket office in hard version and weirdly do in fact get reminder e-mails!) - so you must never assume you will get sent reminders. Set your own reminder in your calendar in future which I'm sure you will do now anyway.

Another thing that's confusing me is that I spent hours trying to contact Railcard and Trainline to access my old Railcard info for evidence when clearly they had it the whole time.

They probably just don't care very much to bother looking for you I fear - it's not their problem may be how they see it I fear.

I think unless you disagree with their breakdown then it's almost certainly best to pay the sum offered to resolve the matter and avoid court prosecution, but if you think they are incorrect on some journeys I think from what we see in here they will play fair with you if you tell them you believe things are incorrect. They may or may not want some supporting evidence however.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Hello.

Thanks everyone for your help. They have replied to my query asking for the breakdown (attached). Unfortunately, my railcard was expired for longer than I'd realised so I'm being fined for over 2 months worth of journeys. They also found a gap in railcards (June-Sep 2023) where the same thing had happened (I hadn't realised the railcard was expired but bought a new one when I did).

Although I can't remember I think I will have just assumed I missed the email letting me know that my railcard was expiring rather than putting 2 and 2 together and realising it was going to my university email for some reason. This is confusing though as it says it's tied to my current email but having gone back and looked through my email, there is definitely no reminder there. Lesson learned the hard way though - I have set up a reminder myself now.

Another thing that's confusing me is that I spent hours trying to contact Railcard and Trainline to access my old Railcard info for evidence when clearly they had it the whole time.

If anyone has any advice, I'm all ears but it seems like there is no room for discussion really and I'm just going to have to find the money to pay it asap.

Thanks again!

Just looking through the attachments, there does seem to be a lot of duplicates for the same time and dates on there. I haven't looked in detail, but you may want to as there will be some significant discount needed if I am correct.

 

[reb0118]

I could be muddling things up here, but one reason for asking you to provide your proof of any railcards held (even though they have already checked) is to give you the opportunity to fill out any gaps that they found in your railcard validity. For example if you had purchased in cash a one year paper railcard at a railway station that had somehow not been entered into the system.

 

[domes649]

Hello. It seems to be the general consensus that I will just have to pay this money. I asked if they would reconsider the extent of the fine (or compensation) and they replied telling me they do not offer payment plans but can refer me to a debt management service for which the email will cost an extra £35. They clearly didn’t read my email which is frustrating but I understand that they must be inundated daily with similar emails daily and it was unlikely that it would go in my favour.

Sorry, I know this was my mistake but i’m just struggling to wrap my head around the sheer amount. I also had a look at the spreadsheet and a few people mentioned there may be duplicates on there but I couldn’t see any.

If anyone has any final advice before I pay, i’d be grateful. Otherwise I have 6 months of debt ahead of me

 

[AlterEgo]

Hello. It seems to be the general consensus that I will just have to pay this money. I asked if they would reconsider the extent of the fine (or compensation) and they replied telling me they do not offer payment plans but can refer me to a debt management service for which the email will cost an extra £35. They clearly didn’t read my email which is frustrating but I understand that they must be inundated daily with similar emails daily and it was unlikely that it would go in my favour.

Sorry, I know this was my mistake but i’m just struggling to wrap my head around the sheer amount. I also had a look at the spreadsheet and a few people mentioned there may be duplicates on there but I couldn’t see any.

If anyone has any final advice before I pay, i’d be grateful. Otherwise I have 6 months of debt ahead of me

To be really clear, they aren’t fining you and don’t have the authority to do that. They’re seeking to recoup the monies they say are due because you were travelling without a valid ticket. Unless you dispute the amount of travel involved you have little to go on in my opinion.

 

[The Sorcerer]

It is not a fine - only a court can impose any form of penalty. It is purely compensation to put the company back into the financial position it would have been in had the situation not arisen.

In your position I'd be discussing with them paying only the difference. (There's even another argument that their true loss amounts merely to the cost of the railcards.) If the matter reached court, you'd expect to offset any sums already paid such that the company isn't able to enrich itself unduly from the situation. If they wouldn't budge I'd be inviting them to set out their legal justification in writing so that even if I paid the higher amount now I could follow it up afterwards - with the hope of obtaining a decision that would help anyone else in a similar situation (past or future) and which could be very expensive for the company if it was found to have repeatedly done wrong.

It's not compensation because they charge the full single fare without deducting the fare allready paid, so the company is in profit.

 

[robbeech]

It feels like an impossible situation as I know I had a railcard 2020-2024 but neither Trainline nor Railcard can help me provide the evidence needed to prove this.

Neither Trainline nor Railcard WILL help you provide the evidence needed to prove this. There is very little doubt in my mind as to whether they CAN. They absolutely will be able to provide this information, it’s not in their interest to do so.

No. And since I posted this I called Trainline to find the dates for the 1year railcard that expired a few weeks prior to this incident but they have said that since it expired they have now deleted it from their system so I can't even prove that one

They might have changed the way the data is available to them but they will absolutely be able to give the evidence required.

Is it possible that SWR know when the OP's railcard expired? I don't see how else they can have calculated any particular figure.

It is possible if a digital railcard has a scan log, I’m not too familiar with how that works and if it can be logged like this so can’t comment further other than to say it could be possible, however, crucially that’s not what is happening here.

When did guilty until proven innocent become the norm?

Welcome to the Railway, we hope you enjoy your stay.

There needs to be some reform here. It seems that retailers are not under any obligation to retain records of expired railcards although some do. If TOCs are going to trawl through records of past ticket purchases looking for tickets bought with Railcard discounts, someone, somewhere needs to retain these records to prevent TOCs making spurious allegations.

Nobody is willing to help passengers because there’s nothing in it for them.

If only they were all consistent with each other. I can’t really see all the other operators levelling down though…

Consistency is essentially taboo on the railway.



I must say, despite the passenger being in the wrong here (and admitting it) I would be tempted to take it through the courts.

 

[anothertyke]

Neither Trainline nor Railcard WILL help you provide the evidence needed to prove this. There is very little doubt in my mind as to whether they CAN. They absolutely will be able to provide this information, it’s not in their interest to do so.

They might have changed the way the data is available to them but they will absolutely be able to give the evidence required.

It is possible if a digital railcard has a scan log, I’m not too familiar with how that works and if it can be logged like this so can’t comment further other than to say it could be possible, however, crucially that’s not what is happening here.



Welcome to the Railway, we hope you enjoy your stay.


Nobody is willing to help passengers because there’s nothing in it for them.


Consistency is essentially taboo on the railway.



I must say, despite the passenger being in the wrong here (and admitting it) I would be tempted to take it through the courts.

Doesn't post 39 strongly suggest that SWR have researched the OP's periods of railcard holding and identified two specific gaps? So far the OP response has not been that SWR have got it wrong, more that £1500 is an unfair basis on which to settle. i suppose one question is--- if it went to court and they pleaded to the offence, what would the fine and costs likely add up to?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

i suppose one question is--- if it went to court and they pleaded to the offence, what would the fine and costs likely add up to?

If you want to ask that question, you also need to ask 'how much is it worth to the defendant not to have a criminal record against their name?' There's also a (probably more minor) question of 'how much is it worth to bring this matter to a prompt end rather than have it hanging over the defendant until the court process is completed?' Everyone will give different answers to these - but they are questions which are capable of being answered.

 

[Haywain]

- if it went to court and they pleaded to the offence, what would the fine and costs likely add up to?

It would probably be less, but the OP would have a criminal record and the potential of further hassle if SWR seek to recover the balance through civil procedures.

 

[robbeech]

Almost certainly less than the figure they’re (rightly or wrongly) requesting here.

If they can stand a criminal record for this and want to make a point they ought to consider it, but it’s more likely they’ll want to avoid that and may consider the requested fee worth it.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello. It seems to be the general consensus that I will just have to pay this money. I asked if they would reconsider the extent of the fine (or compensation) and they replied telling me they do not offer payment plans but can refer me to a debt management service for which the email will cost an extra £35. They clearly didn’t read my email which is frustrating but I understand that they must be inundated daily with similar emails daily and it was unlikely that it would go in my favour.

Sorry, I know this was my mistake but i’m just struggling to wrap my head around the sheer amount. I also had a look at the spreadsheet and a few people mentioned there may be duplicates on there but I couldn’t see any.

If anyone has any final advice before I pay, i’d be grateful. Otherwise I have 6 months of debt ahead of me

Hi all. I think at this stage to really help the OP it would be best to focus responses on the last paragraph of this post….

I think the op wants to draw things to a conclusion, and doesn’t want a criminal record.

 

[Hadders]

Discussion about whether the fare already paid should be taken into consideration when settlements are calculated was taking the thread off-topic so I have moved them to a separate thread.

Discussion ABout Whether Out of Court Settlements Should Take into Account the Fare Already Paid

Moderator Note - split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/swr-%C2%A31489-fine-for-expired-railcard-%E2%80%93-seeking-advice.283103/ There needs to be some reform here. It seems that retailers are not under any obligation to retain records of expired railcards although some do. If TOCs...

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