That is not their job to be honest. Now, you might think that enlightened self-interest would mean that they did, but the leadership of RMT is more interested in achieving a socialist state.
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SWR: Guards/RMT Industrial Action. Next strike dates: 30/31 August, 1/2 September 2019
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kristiang85
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The RMT don't give a damn about passengers. The abuse they give to anybody, even politely, questioning their motives on social media shows that.
But then again its not their remit, as they are there for their members. But their failure to see the bigger picture (particularly since Cash came in) will hurt them in the long run.
But then again its not their remit, as they are there for their members. But their failure to see the bigger picture (particularly since Cash came in) will hurt them in the long run.
Robertj21a
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For all the criticism of him at the time, I'm fairly sure that these various disputes would have been settled long ago if Bob Crow had still been involved.
It costs about 100k to fund a driver on 60k and a final salary pension. It is very expensive. I can employ a ten year qualified lawyer (so 15 years post school education and experience) for about 45k (Home Counties). It costs about 65k to include putting them in an office and bum on seat. I get a lot more than the minimum contractual hours out of them and a lot of flexibility. They will work whenever needed, there are no rest days or minimum gaps between work. Apples and oranges and different life choices to some extent, but I am not sure those on the railway understand just how much they actually do cost (especially how much work has to be done to fund that driver). I am only 'picking' on drivers as that's the usual headline cost people refer to.
Where is this going? Costs on the railway for labour are getting to the point where it is going to accelerate automation, where the RMT is going to welcoming our new robot overlords.... if the RMT attempted to be sensible, they could keep many decent paid jobs for generations; as it is they want to take it all and more today.... which may well hasten their demise.
Actually a driver on £60k wages costs about £80k. I know a trainee solicitor who is on £45k, so I think you are a tightwad!
I am paying market rate. You may know a few trainees in city firms on that. Most aren't. Law is actually pretty badly paid. Wages are pretty depressed. Average solicitor wages in the U.K. Are about 35k. Hardly worth it.
To provide the pension, on a real, cash funded basis and not an unfunded daft public sector manner, costs a ruddy packet (dependent on scheme, around 30% of salary), plus 13% employers NI (so that's nearly 90k already). If you want the scheme to be sustainable, then either you have an ever increasing number of contributors, you have retirees die very early or you have to fund it (something the public sector in general refuses to understand). Then you have all of the other extra benefits/costs that come with restricted hours... training, uniforms, enhanced redundancy, six months full sick pay, full retirement at 60, cost of extra holidays..... providing free travel outside of work time etc.... you get to 100k very quickly.... (chunks of that from ASLEF's own GBRF drivers page).
(Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge the drivers or anyone taking the money, but I am not sure it is often understood just how out of kilter the costs are to the rest of society)
To provide the pension, on a real, cash funded basis and not an unfunded daft public sector manner, costs a ruddy packet (dependent on scheme, around 30% of salary), plus 13% employers NI (so that's nearly 90k already). If you want the scheme to be sustainable, then either you have an ever increasing number of contributors, you have retirees die very early or you have to fund it (something the public sector in general refuses to understand). Then you have all of the other extra benefits/costs that come with restricted hours... training, uniforms, enhanced redundancy, six months full sick pay, full retirement at 60, cost of extra holidays..... providing free travel outside of work time etc.... you get to 100k very quickly.... (chunks of that from ASLEF's own GBRF drivers page).
(Don't get me wrong, I don't begrudge the drivers or anyone taking the money, but I am not sure it is often understood just how out of kilter the costs are to the rest of society)
Errr the whole reason there are minimum rest periods and gaps between duties is because the job is safety critical.
What's the worst a tired lawyer sitting in an office can do? mess up his tea order.
If law is so badly paid then find another industry to work in, but solicitors charge a pretty penny for their service so you'll get no sympathy about bad pay from me.
What's the worst a tired lawyer sitting in an office can do? mess up his tea order.
If law is so badly paid then find another industry to work in, but solicitors charge a pretty penny for their service so you'll get no sympathy about bad pay from me.
Why doesn’t this apply to rail then?
You're talking about pensions in general, whereas I'm talking about what the railway pension costs employers. Employees fund 40% of the cost and there's salary sacrifice. Plus you don't pay either NI or Pension on 100% of your salary.
As for the rest, it looks like you're clutching at straws. Drivers don't get made redundant, uniform is < £200 a year, driver sickness rates are low, most drivers don't retire at 60, they get pretty standard holidays as their numbers include Bank Holidays. Drivers can cost £100k at a few high-paying Operators, like Eurostar, or if they do loads of overtime, but it's not currently the norm.
Free & priv travel at 10% of what everyone else pays can be a big cost although it has not been quantified
A gang of us, almost all railmen & a rail woman with priv passes, travel three times a year for a long range day out.
We went to Poole this summer. We occupied 8 seats in a super crowded Saturday summer train. That meant 8 other travellers from intermediate stations had to stand, adding to the view of the fare payers aboard that trains are overcrowded. Some may have been put off train travel as a result, plus the friends they probably told about the gross overcrowding.
We got talking to another rail employee group, 5 seated drivers chums travelling free, all on an awayday like us.
Priv & free travel does cost the railway. I agree the admin cost is minimal but the other costs may be huge.
Also we might have travelled if we had to pay full fare as we had a great day out motor boating on Poole harbour so that is direct money lost to SWR.
Priv is a great treat. It should be counted as a cost of employment for the companies. £100,000 is the least it costs to employ each driver.
And to think it was probably £30,000 a year before John Major dreamed up privatisation to save the cost of running the railway.
theironroad
Established Member
It would be less revenue if , like a airplane, there were a limitedd number of seats available and once full no more could be sold, but that's not how the railway runs. There is no direct loss of farebox revenue to the railway from free staff travel.
3141
Established Member
I don't think that's the complete picture. Some journeys that railway staff or their families can make at no cost would still take place if they had to pay. There is no easy way to calculate what the loss of farebox revenue amounts to, but there is some loss. That's also true of many other staff concessionary schemes in many other occupations.
Very true it doesn't. However I've not seen any proposals for SWR to run trains without drivers. If running trains without guards helps during disruption, wouldn't it also help to run without drivers during disruption?
Clearly that isn't possible as the technology isn't there. Well just as some base there decisions on technology, I base mine on safety and I don't think its as safe without a guard on all trains and thus that is what I'd like to see continue, even during disruption.
I went to Poole in the autumn using a free SWT gold card weekend ticket. Was I contributing to the railway or just a cost taking up valuable space on a scheme that should never have been offered to encourage me to buy a gold card through South West Trains?
Kite159
Veteran Member
New Year's Eve will be fun and games for the folk heading back home after celebrating midnight, especially with a few additional services already planned.
That will be a few extra families with tickets to the fireworks driving to Richmond/other LU stations with car-parks to avoid travelling on a strike day.
That will be a few extra families with tickets to the fireworks driving to Richmond/other LU stations with car-parks to avoid travelling on a strike day.
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Pensions
It costs about 30% of salary to fund the DB scheme (rough numbers). Even at 40% employee contribution, that's still 18% of £60K (£11K) Employer's NI is still substantial on earnings of £60K (no, it's not on 100% but it is on a fair whack of it - the calculation comes out at £7.1K). And has to be paid on top of what the employee sees in their packet. You're over £80K easily enough. And the cost of the bum on the seat is a fair bit more than that. The free travel is worth a lot..... to the employee.
What price do you put on sick pay terms, Occupational health, enahnced redundancy (events, dear boy, events...) training, all the rest. It all stacks up. Quickly.
As I said, I really don't begrudge the drivers (or anyone) taking it, it's just a tad disingenuous to hugely understate the true cost (much in the same way as MPs claim to be paid so little). And also I don't think it's unfair to point out that, in wider society, it's a cracking deal..... (of course it also comes with shift work, stress, risk of being involved in a fatal, all that as well....)
It costs about 30% of salary to fund the DB scheme (rough numbers). Even at 40% employee contribution, that's still 18% of £60K (£11K) Employer's NI is still substantial on earnings of £60K (no, it's not on 100% but it is on a fair whack of it - the calculation comes out at £7.1K). And has to be paid on top of what the employee sees in their packet. You're over £80K easily enough. And the cost of the bum on the seat is a fair bit more than that. The free travel is worth a lot..... to the employee.
What price do you put on sick pay terms, Occupational health, enahnced redundancy (events, dear boy, events...) training, all the rest. It all stacks up. Quickly.
As I said, I really don't begrudge the drivers (or anyone) taking it, it's just a tad disingenuous to hugely understate the true cost (much in the same way as MPs claim to be paid so little). And also I don't think it's unfair to point out that, in wider society, it's a cracking deal..... (of course it also comes with shift work, stress, risk of being involved in a fatal, all that as well....)
theironroad
Established Member
Just to recap the currently remaining dates for industrial action:
• 00.01 Hours and 23.59 Hours on Saturday 22ndDecember 2018
• 00.01 Hours and 23.59 Hours on Thursday 27th December 2018
• 00.01 Hours and 23.59 Hours on Monday 31st December 2018
• 00.01 Hours and 23.59 Hours on Saturday 22ndDecember 2018
• 00.01 Hours and 23.59 Hours on Thursday 27th December 2018
• 00.01 Hours and 23.59 Hours on Monday 31st December 2018
kristiang85
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Indeed. Employee remuneration is far more than just base salary, and nobody can deny that this is very very generous compared to many other sectors. Even the free travel alone to the employee is a huge perk - if my employer paid my travel for me, it would be akin to a 20% pay rise after tax! (and I am well above the UK average earnings)
Goldfish62
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And no doubt they'll be doing the same next year as the guards lose another month or two's pay.
Meanwhile the guard on my train is firmly locked in the middle cab listening to his rather loud radio.
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Except not all of us can make use of this “free” travel. On earlies I have to get to work before the first train runs. On lates, I finish after the last train runs. Even if I could commute by train, its 45 mins to drive door to door each way. Minimum 90 mins each way if I were to use the train involving 2 connections. I live miles away from the Line my TOC covers, therefore the free passes are of no use for leisure travel either.
Aren’t the costs to employers of purchasing free travel facilities for ex BR employees intentionally significantly reduced because it was all protected by law on privatisation, with subsequent entitlement almost entirely limited to TOC employees only valid on their owning groups franchises , so not a huge cost I’d have thought.
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It will be interesting to see what kind of timetable they put out for 27th as that is in the engineering works period. If I remember correctly hardly any trains from Guildford if any.
Surely they wouldn't cut the number of replacement buses to use them elsewhere. Great Western Railway obviously need buses too.
Surely they wouldn't cut the number of replacement buses to use them elsewhere. Great Western Railway obviously need buses too.
Robertj21a
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There’s likely to be more vehicles and drivers about, there’s a reduction in work available, most local operators will run a reduced Saturday service, there’s no school or contract work but those drivers still need to be paid if they’re on allocated leave.
Dougal2345
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Getting very fed up with these strikes now. Although I support the idea of a guard on every train, realistically:
1) SWR don't want it. Yes their current proposal is very probably the 'thin end of the wedge', but...
2) I'll still travel on an SWR train without a guard - I may be at greater risk, I may not like it but it's a small risk and I'll take it.
3) It doesn't look as though the RMT can do anything to change SWR's minds.
So we're left with these pointless, annoying strikes. Unless the RMT can bring SWR to its knees (which, evidently, they can't), they might as well give up.
1) SWR don't want it. Yes their current proposal is very probably the 'thin end of the wedge', but...
2) I'll still travel on an SWR train without a guard - I may be at greater risk, I may not like it but it's a small risk and I'll take it.
3) It doesn't look as though the RMT can do anything to change SWR's minds.
So we're left with these pointless, annoying strikes. Unless the RMT can bring SWR to its knees (which, evidently, they can't), they might as well give up.
I don't know but they are running a comprehensive service on other days. As in comprehensive bus replacement service. So unless they scale it back.
Not for retired safeguarded employees sadly as they’re no longer employed.
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