SWR: Guards/RMT Industrial Action. Next actions: 22, 27 & 31 December 2018

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by theironroad, 16 Mar 2018.

  1. Ethano92

    Ethano92 Member

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    Don't really bother reading this post unless your the person I'm replying to because it's pretty dull.
    Do you think Cobham is deserving of a place on the fast lines between Waterloo and surbiton? Note how services using the slow lines between the above mentioned stations are part of the suburban network in question for DOO which eventually branch off at Raynes park, New Malden, Surbiton or continue down the slow mainline. Trains down to haslemere use the fast lines between Waterloo and surbiton (I don't know where they do join onto the slow lines if they do).

    If it has to be so black and white the way your putting it, where the edge of London has to be where suburban stops they should have a 701 shuttling down the Surbiton then have people change onto a 450 to take them down the Cobham line.

    Cobham is suburban because it's near enough. Only about 20 miles from central London whereas haslemere is closer to 40 or so miles from the same point. That is why one can be considered suburban and the other can't. If haslemere was considered suburban, you'd probably be arguing for Portsmouth the be suburban. There has to be a boundary somewhere and as said before, Cobham is close enough it can afford to use the slow lines down from Waterloo whereas haslemere is further to the point it uses the fast lines. Without trying to sound passive aggressive, or sound like I'm devaluing your opinion, need any more explanation into what I see as a fairly obvious matter? It's the same reason services as far as Watford, though not actually in London, would be considered suburban but not say Milton Keynes or Bletchley

    I doubt people of haslemere would tolerate their train calling at vauxhall, Clapham junction, Earlsfield, wimbledon, Surbiton, Esher, hersham, Walton on Thames, weybridge, byfleet new haw, west byfleet, Woking, worpleson, Guildford, farncombe, godalming, Milford,witley,haslemere... Just get on Google maps, look at the difference between the two and your point gets answered pretty quickly.
     
    Last edited: 5 Nov 2018
  2. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    I thought they wanted to make it hard for South Western Railway. I mean they did a five day strike in the school holidays and they are striking during sporting events.

    It's not as if they are striking on the 11th itself.

    Obviously they have their reasons. I was kind of hoping it would happen then as their as eingeeeing works diverting trains to Weymouth via Guildford. It would have made for a different timetable to the usual Saturday strike ones.
     
  3. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    Your right about that. It is closer. I know the reasons. I just don't agree with DOO, even during disruption.

    Let's take two examples.
    Alton to Waterloo. The Monday to Friday 7:14 service takes 1 hour 6 minutes. It arrives 8:20. It is a 450 train that will be cancelled during disruption if no guard is avilable. I don't have a problem with this being the case.

    The 7:18 Brighton to London Bridge service takes 1 hour 5 minutes and arrives at 8:23. It actually goes to Bedford so there may be people on it for longer than that. It is a class 700 and can run without a guard during disruption. I don't agree with this.

    Both services operate on fast lines. If they are so concerned about running trains during disruption without a guard, why didn't the ITT suggest replacing the 450 stock with stock that doesn't need a guard?

    The 450 trains can block platforms at Waterloo just as the surbuban trains can. It sounds like I'm making a case for DOO during disruption.

    I'd like to do that but I don't consider it safe enough to run during disruption without two members of staff on board. Thus on that point I can't. My views on this are purely about the safety.
     
  4. Ethano92

    Ethano92 Member

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    That I can understand. Thing is, Replacing SWRs largest fleet which is less than 2 decades old would be a bit pointless (I know the 707s are being replaced but I think that's unnecessary in itself, just like all other modern fleets that dont have anywhere to go). As far as I am aware -once drivers get used to it- driver operated doors are generally faster as they usually release much sooner and once the doors close, the driver can just leave straight away. This is helpful on such a congested line with trains stopping at every stop at least as far as Wimbledon. Unlike the fast lines where only some services call at a few stations before they branch of onto different lines. To be frank, I'm not entirely sure. All I know is that their focus for DOO is on their inner suburban routes which can be considered metro routes too in many places.

    The real question is, when on Thameslink, for example, do you feel unsafe? Take a 10 car suburban train made up of 455,455,456. In an extremely unlikely emergency event, driver takes care of the front unit, guard is in the middle unit, what happens with the rear unit? I genuinely feel somewhat safer on a 700. Very well lit; less sort of hidden corners for anything suspect; walk through easily to get away from a dangerous person, potentially; guessing it has longer lasting batteries as a new train for the driver to keep the PA going. If it weren't for the seats, I could happily travel from Horsham to Peterborough on a 700 without a guard.

    Of course, I can appreciate having a trained professional makes an emergency situation easier however on suburban routes they serve little purpose at least from my perspective because such a situation rarely happens. As for Thameslink, really some of its services should have a guard but I honestly don't care that they don't. Guards on my route at least just hide in the cab and don't dare speak to people because they don't have revenue capabilities DOO is safe enough to meet the UKs strict regulations about everything and anything so it's safe enough for me.

    My only respectful question to you is: when on one of the many services operating without a guard, do you genuinely feel on wits end, scared about every possibility?
     
    Last edited: 5 Nov 2018
  5. Goldfish62

    Goldfish62 Established Member

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    Perhaps the answer is for those trains that run DOO instead of being cancelled due to no guard this is advertised in advance so that people can make an informed choice whether to travel on them. Personally I would take the risk, especially as my walk to the station would have been a much higher risk.

    Having sadly witnessed two instances in the past couple of weeks where passengers have tried to speak with the non-commercial guard (in one instance who shut the doors on boarding passengers and as a result separated a couple) and without success due to the guard being behind locked doors in the middle of the train (one 450 and one 458) I've lost all sympathy with the current dispute. Its nothing to do with safety.
     
  6. pompeyfan

    pompeyfan Established Member

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    Absolutely no excuse for the gangway on a 450 to be locked out, really disappointed. Admittedly there’s elements of both non commercial and commercial that do no favours for the grade, but I see far more slack behaviour from non commercial, which is a shame because there’s some really good non coms out there.

    The argument about the Cobham line being classed as metro is interesting, and I suspect that if the service could run fast from surbiton to Clapham and Waterloo then 450 type stock would be ideal.
     
  7. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I don't see any need for non-commercial guards. If they are to be retained on all trains, they should all become commercial.
     
  8. Robertj21a

    Robertj21a Established Member

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    I can't help but think that many of these issues would vanish if they went DOO + OBS (like Southern).
     
  9. theironroad

    theironroad Established Member

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    Just a reminder that the two dates currently remaining for industrial action are the Saturdays 17 & 24 November.

    The action previously announced for Saturday 10/11 has been cancelled. However, long distance trains on 10+11/11 are diverted due to planned engineering work in Winchester area. Other engineering work on Sunday as well.
     
  10. nuts & bolts

    nuts & bolts Member

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    The driver will be able to assist in 455-455-456 due to connecting corridor, Guard will be positioned in 456 and vice versa in reverse formation.
     
  11. Ethano92

    Ethano92 Member

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    But then it relies on the guard to come to you rather than those who are worried being able to get the guard. Surely in a fix formed 701, the driver would be able to get through the whole train and would be able to coordinate passengers through the PA (which I'm expecting to last longer after a loss of power due to modern train batteries). Likely the driver would be locked away in the drivers cab contacting the signaller etc but this doesn't change anything from what happens today, in that you would not be able to get to a member of staff, you'd have to wait for them to come to you.

    I guess so, but then you need to increase frequency on another line so stations between wimbledon and Waterloo can maintain the frequency they need. Honestly I believe all suburban services should be in oyster zones, then it makes more sense for them to be served by suburban routes. There's Amersham, Shenfield, Hertford, Grays, Dartford, Gatwick airport (for understandable reasons), and there soon will be Reading so it's not a matter of whether it's in London or not. Generally, on the SWR network I believe the oyster system ends to early, why not extend to Epsom and beyond, Staines and beyond, why not even windosr for when the oyster zones are expanded to Reading. I realise I'm steering heavily off topic, I'll stop.
     
  12. Kite159

    Kite159 Veteran Member

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    Does SWR still operate triple 456s on Hampton Court services on Sundays or did that practise end with the may timetable change?

    If they still do, then by the nature of the 456 having no gangways one set will be unstaffed
     
  13. HH

    HH Established Member

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    Do you drive? If so do you ever drive when you're feeling tired? According to RoSPA, "driver fatigue may be a contributory factor in up to 20% of road accidents".

    Meanwhile the difference in safety terms between DOO and Guard dispatch can't even be measured. Maybe you're angsting about the wrong things.
     
  14. Goldfish62

    Goldfish62 Established Member

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    I noticed the other day that on a 455+455+456 formation the guard was in the rear cab of the second 455. This meant that the 456 was unstaffed.
     
  15. Wychwood93

    Wychwood93 Member

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    It might be that on another website infobleep is moaning about the safety on buses if there is no 'clippie' - I am more than happy on DOO buses. The latter have more chance of conflict along the way due to less safety systems - down here in the modestly populated Poole/Bournemouth/Christchurch conurbation there are few bus incidents and very few, barring vandalism, that could cause harm. I have yet to feel unsafe on either mode of transport over 50+ plus years of travel - 'clippies' down here went many years ago, no fuss about that as I recall. A guard is not some heritage species to be 'protected' - adapted to modern life, perhaps that's best. To repeat what I, and others have said, probably many times, SWR have no known plans to abolish guards. They can be useful (when you see one - anyone recall the old 'I-spy' books?) - seriously though, some/many of them are. Inner suburban/'metro' stuff - have OBS or the TTIs (what are they called now?).
     
  16. nuts & bolts

    nuts & bolts Member

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    The Guard still has patrol the whole train, swapping units along the line of route.
     
  17. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    I may feel safer on a class 700 but I'd feel even with a guard on a class 700 at all times. Edit: actually I don't feel unsafe on a class 455 or 456. A class 700 is easier to go through, except when busy when it's no better or worse.

    If their isn't one I just get on with it. I wouldn't know if their wasn't one as on GTR at least they don't say theirs no OBS in board. Perhaps they should promote the fact more.

    I usually think that a deserter isn't going to affect me, whixh is why day to day I'm not at my wits end. That's how I view life generally. However I want an insurance policy all the same and that is the guard.
     
    Last edited: 6 Nov 2018
  18. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    No I don't drive. I am happy to rely on public transport for the most part.
     
    Last edited: 8 Nov 2018
  19. HH

    HH Established Member

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    Well, it is a bit "All Our Yesterdays" at present, with the strikes.

    Or did you mean relieve? Given the state of the toilets, I think probably not.
     
  20. Goldfish62

    Goldfish62 Established Member

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    Yes indeed, I'm aware of that. Just making the point that sometimes units without gangways will be unstaffed, albeit for part of the journey unless the guard I saw was a "cab dweller"
     
  21. Ethano92

    Ethano92 Member

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    Fair enough. I do genuinely understand why a guard can be useful and why they can provide a sort of assurance for some people, I just don't appreciate how passengers who couldn't care less (me) also have to suffer the consequences of strikes whilst RMT tells us they're doing it for us. I also don't appreciate RMT advertising DOO as the most dangerous thing possible sent from hell and not acknowledging the fact plenty of other services operate DOO.



    That would be a logical answer that I'm sure most would be fine with
     
  22. Cambrian359

    Cambrian359 Member

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    How is it that the unions have such a stranglehold over the british public & economy?
    Any other profession you get offered a new contract/ terms and conditions or step down/redundancy.
    Businesses need to modernise to stay alive in this fast changing world.
    In 50 years time when/if they start introducing fully automated staffless trains the public will support it because they will be sick to death of strikes and what will the unions do then? Strike? Pointless with automated trains as they won’t need staff anyway.
     
  23. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    They don't, it's just the railway. And I am increasingly convinced it needs reining in substantially by way of legislation.

    It is not for the Unions to dictate Railway policy. It is only their role to protect their members through such changes to ensure they do not lose out financially or in terms of T&Cs etc. Nothing more.

    If the Unions force the railway to remain in the 2000s in 2050, it'll just end up closed. It's just like Beeching - while some branch lines were genuine basket cases, others may have survived by way of Paytrain services.

    Meanwhile on some branches it might come down to "what do you want? A DOO train or a DOO bus?" - I know which I'd rather.
     
  24. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    Apologies I meant rely.

    When I went to university the condition of staying in halls was you don't bring a car. I went along with that and have kind of ended up following ever since. However since I don't have a car, I expect good but safe public transport.
     
  25. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    I don't like it when TOCs who I travel with form time to time put out press releases with spin in them. Just be honest to the point and highlight the changes you wish to make. By all means highlight what isn't changing but make that the focus.

    I don't like the union press releases either by the way.
     
    Last edited: 8 Nov 2018
  26. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    I know your talking in general terms but just imagine how long a DOO bus from Cobham to Waterloo would take in peak rush hour.
     
  27. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    What about planes. They have more staff than the trains do. What is more dangerous a plane or train? By number of staff alone one might assume the plane.

    I don't knoe which it is though.
     
  28. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    That is a fair idea. I won't happen though. Not just because the unions don't want it but because the TOCs would have to admit a train was running with only a driver.

    Judging by existing press releases and statements I remeber reading, they don't always seem keen for that point to be so well highlighted.
     
  29. Clip

    Clip On Moderation

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    About a little bit longer than the X68 from Croydon to Waterloo?
     
  30. furnessvale

    furnessvale Established Member

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    The Railway Conversion League had an answer for that one and, flawed as it was, if the railways fail to give the required service, politicians could just reopen that box.
     

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