SWR: Guards/RMT Industrial Action. Next strike dates: 30/31 August, 1/2 September 2019

[infobleep]

It has everything to do with the slow opening doors on a desiro, the guard has to open a local door to look out down the train before they can release the rest of the doors, if that door takes 5 seconds to open then there’s nothing the guard can do to speed up that process short of not doing the required safety check.

I quite agree. I have regularly traveled on 455 and 450 over the years and the 455 stock is faster at opening. No question about it. The doors that open faster are on stock being phased out and where they wish to replace the guard during disruption.

The doors that take longer to open are on stock not being phased out and thus where they wish to only run them with a guard during disruption.

I know there are other reasons for getting rid of the 455 stock.

 

[CN75]

The Desiro trains are the last passenger fleet that was genuinely designed for guard operation when it came to doors. It’s surprising that SWR do not seem to care particularly any more about their guards working these trains from the non driving cabs on a routine basis - when the whole design allows the guard to operate the doors from any passenger door set and even provides the guard with their own office on board. However, it is also a classic example of where the guards themselves and their union leaders should be considered foremost responsible for their own actions rather than the management being responsible for tolerating it. Guards who want to prove their worth in this dispute must find the laziness evident from their colleagues on SWR suburban services infuriating.

 

[DennisM]

The guard is more likely taking an extra second or two at Vauxhall to double check the formation and their position in relation to that. I’d imagine more to do with responsibility of the hundreds of people on that train than the powerful feeling they get keeping the doors closed for an extra few seconds (or maybe guards love delaying their train, filling in the subsequent delay reports and making themselves late for their break/finish time). If the driver forgets about that new 456 on the back and stops where he used to, the guards additional second or two spent ensuring the train is correctly positioned is well spent versus passengers falling onto live rails and the aftermath of such an event.

If anything the contingency guards are blissfully ignorant (due to their lack of training) of the risks and potential consequences of them getting things wrong. Guards who aren’t just there for the day know they won’t be in the job for long if they blindly release the doors when the train stops in a platform, if you do that hundreds of times every week your luck will eventually run out.

 

[pompeyfan]

The guard is more likely taking an extra second or two at Vauxhall to double check the formation and their position in relation to that. I’d imagine more to do with responsibility of the hundreds of people on that train than the powerful feeling they get keeping the doors closed for an extra few seconds (or maybe guards love delaying their train, filling in the subsequent delay reports and making themselves late for their break/finish time). If the driver forgets about that new 456 on the back and stops where he used to, the guards additional second or two spent ensuring the train is correctly positioned is well spent versus passengers falling onto live rails and the aftermath of such an event.

If anything the contingency guards are blissfully ignorant (due to their lack of training) of the risks and potential consequences of them getting things wrong. Guards who aren’t just there for the day know they won’t be in the job for long if they blindly release the doors when the train stops in a platform, if you do that hundreds of times every week your luck will eventually run out.

Absolutely spot on post, I wish I had the time and effort to explain what you did. Sadly at this stage of the debate, everyone is entrenched in their opinion and there’s no point actively trying to reason with some contributors. Some are more polite and constructive in their desire to see DOO roll out, others are just there to get joy out of the power of winding up operational staff. Some posters are even lucky enough to be BR safeguarded and still enjoy putting current staff down.

 

[LowLevel]

The Desiro trains are the last passenger fleet that was genuinely designed for guard operation when it came to doors. It’s surprising that SWR do not seem to care particularly any more about their guards working these trains from the non driving cabs on a routine basis - when the whole design allows the guard to operate the doors from any passenger door set and even provides the guard with their own office on board. However, it is also a classic example of where the guards themselves and their union leaders should be considered foremost responsible for their own actions rather than the management being responsible for tolerating it. Guards who want to prove their worth in this dispute must find the laziness evident from their colleagues on SWR suburban services infuriating.

Would you want to be the manager responsible for signing off effectively a ban on using the cab droplights on these trains when the rulebook has recently been changed to say the guard should look out whenever possible and when the guard, having looked out but not being obliged to, at the recent PTI incident in Droitwich was responsible for stopping the train having noticed the lad falling down the side of it?

It would be a brave type to take that upon themselves. I know ScotRail have done it and Southern used to say cab working was only for wedged out trains but it's a big responsibility to sign off.

 

[Three-Nine]

For those travelling on the West of England line, there has been a late change to the previously advertised timetable on the 22nd December. Short version is that the two hourly Waterloo/Salisbury/Honiton/Exeter train service is more or less the same but there will be a lot less buses operating than previously advertised; now (mostly, with a few exceptions early morning and late evening) only all stops between Honiton & Exeter.

Note also that the trains will only call at Exeter Central, not St. Davids in both directions.

The revised timetable should now be available on the SWR website. Those of you that may have made travel plans on that route on the 22nd had probably best double-check your times.

 

[nuts & bolts]

I quite agree. I have regularly traveled on 455 and 450 over the years and the 455 stock is faster at opening. No question about it. The doors that open faster are on stock being phased out and where they wish to replace the guard during disruption.

The doors that take longer to open are on stock not being phased out and thus where they wish to only run them with a guard during disruption.

I know there are other reasons for getting rid of the 455 stock.

450 & 444 stock have plug doors that lock!

 

[Dougal2345]

"The Journey Planner has not yet been fully updated to reflect the revised service on Thursday 27 or Monday 31 January. Please check back closer to the time of travel."

Hmmm, I wonder if they'll bother updating it for the 27th at all... they're cutting it rather fine...

 

[Helvellyn]

Hmmm, I wonder if they'll bother updating it for the 27th at all... they're cutting it rather fine...

And I thought it was only the lotto that had a lucky dip!

 

[swt_passenger]

"The Journey Planner has not yet been fully updated to reflect the revised service on Thursday 27 or Monday 31 January. Please check back closer to the time of travel."

Hmmm, I wonder if they'll bother updating it for the 27th at all... they're cutting it rather fine...

Should this be December?

 

[Starmill]

even provides the guard with their own office on board.

Isn't this being removed?

 

[OneOffDave]

Interestingly, I've just tried to book assistance for the 31st and their systems haven't been updated yet with the timetables for then even though they are available on the SWR website

 

[Dougal2345]

Interestingly, I've just tried to book assistance for the 31st and their systems haven't been updated yet with the timetables for then even though they are available on the SWR website

As I write, I'm on the 19.58 from Bournemouth - a "strike" service, which is showing on the journey planner. But also on the planner is the 20.05, a "normal" service that isn't actually running. Suffice it to say, the planner is a mess...

So, how has to-day's strike helped the RMT's cause? It surely wasn't utterly pointless or anything?

 

[lewisf]

The journey planner was never updated yesterday. The only way to plan a journey was to use the live departure boards for each leg.

 

[Helvellyn]

So, how has to-day's strike helped the RMT's cause? It surely wasn't utterly pointless or anything?

Well I saw no picket lines yesterday but a sujrprising number of Guards working.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Ballot for further action currently underway, brought forward a little so as to affect 'Six Nations' travel.

 

[theironroad]

Ballot for further action currently underway, brought forward a little so as to affect 'Six Nations' travel.

What's the closing date?

 

[Goldfish62]

Ballot for further action currently underway, brought forward a little so as to affect 'Six Nations' travel.

The strike action on match days late last year had surprisingly little impact. Surely it's better to stick to mid-week striking, especially at this time of year when fewer people are on holiday.

BTW, don't get me wrong. I'd of course rather that there weren't any more strikes.

 

[Carlisle]

Isn't this being removed?

I’d also heard rumours to that effect about Desiro guard compartments but in practice it makes zero difference to the DOO arguments unless SWR plan to fit them with bodyside cameras during their tenure

 

[greaterwest]

I’d also heard rumours to that effect about Desiro guard compartments but in practice it makes zero difference to the DOO arguments unless SWR plan to fit them with bodyside cameras during their tenure

They have been removed on th refurbished units.

 

[Carlisle]

They have been removed on th refurbished units.

Cheers for the information

 

[Helvellyn]

I’d also heard rumours to that effect about Desiro guard compartments but in practice it makes zero difference to the DOO arguments unless SWR plan to fit them with bodyside cameras during their tenure

Correct. The 127x450s and 45x444s will still require a Guard due to the absence of body side cameras. As will the 18x442s, 30x159s and 10x158s.

What could be worked DOO - once introduced - are the 90x701s on suburban routes. The dispute is in part about what constitutes "exceptional" circumstances for this to happen, a lack of trust between RMT and SWR plus RMT wanting to avoid this being the thin end of the wedge by setting precedent, i.e. the fear if they give ground now then that opens the way for more of the same in the next franchise when 158s/159s/442s/444s/450s will be up for replacement. The first three fleets will be life-expired and chances are the other two could go because the twenty-year Siemens maintenance deal will have expired and they are heavy (this hammer the track and thus have higher track access charges).

 

[pompeyfan]

Correct. The 127x450s and 45x444s will still require a Guard due to the absence of body side cameras. As will the 18x442s, 30x159s and 10x158s.

What could be worked DOO - once introduced - are the 90x701s on suburban routes. The dispute is in part about what constitutes "exceptional" circumstances for this to happen, a lack of trust between RMT and SWR plus RMT wanting to avoid this being the thin end of the wedge by setting precedent, i.e. the fear if they give ground now then that opens the way for more of the same in the next franchise when 158s/159s/442s/444s/450s will be up for replacement. The first three fleets will be life-expired and chances are the other two could go because the twenty-year Siemens maintenance deal will have expired and they are heavy (this hammer the track and thus have higher track access charges).

Until the following franchise, am I right in believing that the intention of SWR is to have suburban guards work a mixture of Desiros and 701s (I know they can’t work them the same way) but if they’re working 450s they’ll still need to be competent guards.

I, like many others, am scared of the thin edge of the wedge, and it’ll be interesting to see how the OBS role on southern plays out.

Sadly, although the Desiros will only be around 20 when the franchise is up, the opertunity to run a homogeneous outer fleet might prove too much unless the Desiros become attractive in price.

 

[Goldfish62]

Correct. The 127x450s and 45x444s will still require a Guard due to the absence of body side cameras. As will the 18x442s, 30x159s and 10x158s.

What could be worked DOO - once introduced - are the 90x701s on suburban routes. The dispute is in part about what constitutes "exceptional" circumstances for this to happen, a lack of trust between RMT and SWR plus RMT wanting to avoid this being the thin end of the wedge by setting precedent, i.e. the fear if they give ground now then that opens the way for more of the same in the next franchise when 158s/159s/442s/444s/450s will be up for replacement. The first three fleets will be life-expired and chances are the other two could go because the twenty-year Siemens maintenance deal will have expired and they are heavy (this hammer the track and thus have higher track access charges).

Good. Someone has summed up exactly what the dispute is about!

 

[theironroad]

Correct. The 127x450s and 45x444s will still require a Guard due to the absence of body side cameras. As will the 18x442s, 30x159s and 10x158s.

What could be worked DOO - once introduced - are the 90x701s on suburban routes. The dispute is in part about what constitutes "exceptional" circumstances for this to happen, a lack of trust between RMT and SWR plus RMT wanting to avoid this being the thin end of the wedge by setting precedent, i.e. the fear if they give ground now then that opens the way for more of the same in the next franchise when 158s/159s/442s/444s/450s will be up for replacement. The first three fleets will be life-expired and chances are the other two could go because the twenty-year Siemens maintenance deal will have expired and they are heavy (this hammer the track and thus have higher track access charges).

While 158/9 don't have door controls in the driving cab and the 442s have had the door controls removed (that gatex installed after the 442 left swt), all the desiro fleet on swr have had door controls on the drivers desk since new build, just they've never been utilised.

Southern had already established a working practice of using a member of station staff positioned on the platform next to the driver to act (in conjunction with their platform based colleagues) as a replacement for body side cameras. The train was despatched by this method with no other staff on board.

At staffed stations, it could be possible to operate desiros with only a driver onboard.

All the PR that gets banded about that it will never affect desiros is not true. It certainly could.

 

[Goldfish62]

While 158/9 don't have door controls in the driving cab and the 442s have had the door controls removed (that gatex installed after the 442 left swt), all the desiro fleet on swr have had door controls on the drivers desk since new build, just they've never been utilised.

Southern had already established a working practice of using a member of station staff positioned on the platform next to the driver to act (in conjunction with their platform based colleagues) as a replacement for body side cameras. The train was despatched by this method with no other staff on board.

At staffed stations, it could be possible to operate desiros with only a driver onboard.

All the PR that gets banded about that it will never affect desiros is not true. It certainly good.

When the Desiros were first introduced it was mentioned that the door buttons at the driver's desk were not live and would require connecting up in order to be used. Has this since changed?

The 458s had working door release buttons at the driver's desk from new as SWT intended that they would be DOO. Do they still have them?

 

[theironroad]

When the Desiros were first introduced it was mentioned that the door buttons at the driver's desk were not live and would require connecting up in order to be used. Has this since changed?

The 458s had working door release buttons at the driver's desk from new as SWT intended that they would be DOO. Do they still have them?

Not sure about 458s but think they're being replaced by 701s????

No, the buttons on desk aren't live in desiro cabs currently. I'm pretty sure the wiring is all linked in though. Controls are available in cab on each side but behind drivers seat and aren't suitable for doo/dco use on a regular basis. It would only take Siemens a couple of weeks to liven up the drivers desk buttons on the whole 444/450 fleet. For all I know it may just be a software adjustment needed which could be done remotely.

 

[Goldfish62]

Not sure about 458s but think they're being replaced by 701s????

No, the buttons on desk aren't live in desiro cabs currently. I'm pretty sure the wiring is all linked in though. Controls are available in cab on each side but behind drivers seat and aren't suitable for doo/dco use on a regular basis. It would only take Siemens a couple of weeks to liven up the drivers desk buttons on the whole 444/450 fleet. For all I know it may just be a software adjustment needed which could be done remotely.

I know the 458s are being replaced. I was just asking the question out of interest.

The Desiros would also need two CCTV screens in the cabs. Is there room to retrofit them?

 

[pompeyfan]

With SWR using longer formations you’d need 2, possibly 3 platform staff to dispatch a 12 car from many stations, surely if you’re going down the route of assisted dispatch it’d be cheaper just to use a guard. Could you imagine the cost paying 1/2 people to stand at every station to dispatch trains. Every station along the new line, along the Netley line, or from Poole down to Weymouth. Cheaper just to keep the guard.

 

[Kite159]

A prediction for the latest ballot:

A larger percentage voting yes to carrying on striking however with a reduction of votes , with a reduction of those allowed to vote due to some moderate guards quitting the Union.