SWR: Guards/RMT Industrial Action. Next strike dates: 30/31 August, 1/2 September 2019

[infobleep]

The RMT should employ someone to handle the media, ie press releases and radio interviews to try and get the public on their side and that it "isn't all just about the doors".

Indeed they should and SWR shouldn't write misleading press releases.

I'm surprised about the former but the cynic in me isn't surprised about the latter.

Although I might have expected misleading press releases from the RMT too, just not a load of wibble that is coming out, if that is the right word here.

 

[FenMan]

Indeed they should and SWR shouldn't write misleading press releases.

I'm surprised about the former but the cynic in me isn't surprised about the latter.

Although I might have expected misleading press releases from the RMT too, just not a load of wibble that is coming out, if that is the right word here.

I enjoy reading RMT press releases, especially the cut and paste stuff, as they remind me of Dave Spart's column in Private Eye.

 

[IceAgeComing]

So I'm travelling from London to Portsmouth on an advanced ticket on the 22nd which is the first time I've travelled on a strike day on an advance. My understanding is that they'll be running a service on that line (since it is one of their key ones) but that it might be irregular and at different times. What exactly should I do? I guess that its a case of turning up and getting on the first train that leaves after my booked time but I don't know whether that might get me in trouble or not. Also I guess that since I bought my ticket before the strike was announced that if there's an issue with weird train times that I'd be entitled to Delay Repay?

 

[Carlisle]

Although I might have expected misleading press releases from the RMT too, just not a load of wibble that is coming out, if that is the right word here.

Anyone who’s been following this and similar events over the last few years will by now surely be fully aware of both sides positions and the reasons behind them .

 

[387star]

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-launches-direct-challenge-to-south-western-railway/

12 February 2019 RMT Press Office: RMT launches direct challenge to South Western Railway to honour guard guarantee on their trains RAIL UNION RMT launched a direct challenge to South Western Railway to give a “yes or no” answer to the question of whether or not they are prepared to give a cast-iron guarantee that every train will run with a guard on board, in addition to the driver, after the company attempted to imply to the travelling public that they are prepared to match similar pledges received by union from other train operators. No such offer has been received by RMT from SWR. In a letter to the company today, RMT General Secretary Mick Cash says: “I am writing in response to press comments that you issued to the media last Thursday – 7th February – regarding the ongoing SWR dispute over Driver Only Operation and the role of the guard. In your press statement you say that; "We have repeatedly committed to rostering a guard on all our services - the same assurance that seems to have been sufficient for the RMT to suspend its strikes elsewhere in the country only yesterday.” You will be aware that your statement is not only wholly factually incorrect but is a deliberate and cynical attempt to mislead the travelling public in the area covered by your franchise. The key principles accepted by Northern Rail through the ACAS process that you refer to are in fact as follows; “ *that for the duration of the current franchise every train will be run with a conductor on board in addition to the driver; and *where new or modified rolling stock is being introduced that every train will continue to run with a conductor. “ You will understand that the guarantee of a guard/conductor on every train in addition to the driver is wholly different to your statements about “rostering” a member of staff and to try and portray this otherwise in public statements is entirely disingenuous on your part. So I am giving you the opportunity right now to rectify the situation. Are you prepared, as you have stated, to meet the terms of the offer to RMT from Northern Rail that EVERY train will run with a guard on board in addition to the driver. It really is very simple, YES or NO? I look forward to your prompt response.” RMT General Secretary, Mick Cash said: “Today I have issued a direct challenge to SWR – are you prepared to put an offer to this trade union giving an assurance that every train will run with a guard on board in addition to the driver. Yes or no? “We want no more playing with words, we want this company to be straight and honest with both their passengers and their staff and today they have the opportunity to do just that. We await their response.” Ends.

 

[Goldfish62]

So I'm travelling from London to Portsmouth on an advanced ticket on the 22nd which is the first time I've travelled on a strike day on an advance. My understanding is that they'll be running a service on that line (since it is one of their key ones) but that it might be irregular and at different times. What exactly should I do? I guess that its a case of turning up and getting on the first train that leaves after my booked time but I don't know whether that might get me in trouble or not. Also I guess that since I bought my ticket before the strike was announced that if there's an issue with weird train times that I'd be entitled to Delay Repay?

What I believe they've said with past strikes is to travel on a train closest to the scheduled one and that delay repay will be based on the revised timetable.

 

[winks]

People shouldn’t worry about the timetable laid on over strike days. Travelling from Basingstoke to London and BSK to Fratton regularly over strike days it was far more relaxed and stress free. Trains less busy.

I can see this disput heading the way Southern has.

 

[Wychwood93]

People shouldn’t worry about the timetable laid on over strike days. Travelling from Basingstoke to London and BSK to Fratton regularly over strike days it was far more relaxed and stress free. Trains less busy.

I can see this disput heading the way Southern has.

I agree for a weekday but a strike on a Saturday is less fun at this time of year - football stuff (too round a ball for me) - hordes on the trains from my way but, starting where I do, I avoid the crush and can watch from a seat. Perhaps 30+ standing per coach in from Basingstoke - max. load stuff. Plenty of room from Clapham - esp. if rugby at Twickenham. If not crowded a temp. 'guard' will wander through - perhaps more often than otherwise? Hard to say.

 

[Ethano92]

Apologies if this is perhaps a silly question but when the 701s are fully rolled out, even if the unions are still in disagreement with SWR, is SWR allowed to essentially say "we understand your point but we will use DOO anyway". What would happen, would RMT refuse to train their drivers for DOO?

What is the extent these strikes can go to. Can they theoretically strike for say a full week?

 

[Carlisle]

What is the extent these strikes can go to. Can they theoretically strike for say a full week?

Providing the union gives 14 days notice and re ballots at least every 6 months they’re able to call anything up to an indefinite strike

 

[greaterwest]

What is the extent these strikes can go to. Can they theoretically strike for say a full week?

There was a 5 day strike not long before Christmas.

 

[infobleep]

Anyone who’s been following this and similar events over the last few years will by now surely be fully aware of both sides positions and the reasons behind them .

Not so sure. If one is an occasional reader, they may not.

I know about it because I read about it on here.

 

[infobleep]

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-launches-direct-challenge-to-south-western-railway/

Now that is a good press release in my opinion. It asks a question.

I wonder if they have replied yet.

 

[LLB]

Will be very interesting to see the response from SWR on this! Doubt it will be as simple as yes or no though, we shall see.

 

[infobleep]

Will be very interesting to see the response from SWR on this! Doubt it will be as simple as yes or no though, we shall see.

Perhaps they will suddenly be too busy to have a person who have respond to this publicly, if asked.

I sometimes wonder what it's like working in media relations for companies putting out misleading press releases.

 

[LLB]

Perhaps they will suddenly be too busy to have a person who have respond to this publicly, if asked.

I sometimes wonder what it's like working in media relations for companies putting out misleading press releases.

Must be a complete nightmare! I certainly wouldn't want to be the person.

 

[Bookd]

Where are the press releases misleading? Time and again SWR have stated their intention to employ more guards and roster one on every train; their press releases just state the company policy. That is not misleading - it is just that RMT refuse to believe what they have been told and until they do there can be no solution.

 

[pompeyfan]

Where are the press releases misleading? Time and again SWR have stated their intention to employ more guards and roster one on every train; their press releases just state the company policy. That is not misleading - it is just that RMT refuse to believe what they have been told and until they do there can be no solution.

Erm that’s not correct,

The day after the Northern strikes were cancelled, Andy Mellors said in a press release that they were offering the same deal which Northern had offered. Northern have now guaranteed that a train will not run in passenger service without a guard onboard. SWR want to run trains DOO-P, Northern have agreed not to... that is why it’s musleading.

 

[Carlisle]

Erm that’s not correct,

The day after the Northern strikes were cancelled, Andy Mellors said in a press release that they were offering the same deal which Northern had offered. Northern have now guaranteed that a train will not run in passenger service without a guard onboard. SWR want to run trains DOO-P, Northern have agreed not to... that is why it’s musleading.

Why would most people want to see passanger s left stranded on possibly unstaffed platforms during disruption? Oh I forgot it’s actually got very little to do with protecting the customer and almost everything to do with protecting future bargaining power, perhaps the RMT should have the integrity to publish that if we’re discussing accuracy of press releases

 

[kristiang85]

SWR want to have the flexibility to still be able to dispatch a train without a guard in the event of unexpected sudden circumstances meaning they are absent (e.g. other train delays, last minute illness), knowing a replacement can jump on at the next station or two down the line.

So many trains are cancelled or heavily delayed due to this issue in my experience, that I can see their point if the driver is sitting there waiting to go, and has the tools to do it. I eminently support it in fact. Why delay or cancel a train at Waterloo, and cause all the knock on effects, if they can get someone to jump on at Clapham Junction?

I guess the grey area is what these 'exceptional' circumstances are and where the line is drawn, and how long a train is run without a guard.

Ultimately at the end of the day this is still mostly about the RMT guards' powers to inflict maximum damage during strike action and their political clout. Sugarcoating it with safety, etc. isn't working anymore. Especially with the way their social media account seems to fly off the handle at anybody who dares oppose them.

 

[pompeyfan]

Why would most people want to see passanger s left stranded on possibly unstaffed platforms during disruption? Oh I forgot it’s actually got very little to do with protecting the customer and almost everything to do with protecting future bargaining power, perhaps the RMT should have the integrity to publish that if we’re discussing accuracy of press releases

SWR want to have the flexibility to still be able to dispatch a train without a guard in the event of unexpected sudden circumstances meaning they are absent (e.g. other train delays, last minute illness), knowing a replacement can jump on at the next station or two down the line.

So many trains are cancelled or heavily delayed due to this issue in my experience, that I can see their point if the driver is sitting there waiting to go, and has the tools to do it. I eminently support it in fact. Why delay or cancel a train at Waterloo, and cause all the knock on effects, if they can get someone to jump on at Clapham Junction?

I guess the grey area is what these 'exceptional' circumstances are and where the line is drawn, and how long a train is run without a guard.

Ultimately at the end of the day this is still mostly about the RMT guards' powers to inflict maximum damage during strike action and their political clout. Sugarcoating it with safety, etc. isn't working anymore. Especially with the way their social media account seems to fly off the handle at anybody who dares oppose them.

I’m sure you can both back those statements up with fact? Or is that conjure and speculation?

As has been previously documented, full crew working has the ability to avoid the situation of guard but no driver. There’s also lots of situations where there’s a guard but no driver but strangely that’s never highlighted. Full crew working is the way forward.

 

[pompeyfan]

It’s interesting though because I cannot recall Andy Mellors ever actually stating publicly that they want to run trains driver only, just the usual sound bites about rostering a guard and keeping people moving. We’re all intelligent enough or interested enough to realise that means DOO, and yet I don’t recall him saying that.

Rather alarmingly though, at the most recent meet the manager a manager explained that trains would run DOO to Its next stop Woking and pick up a guard there. What 701 service would be Waterloo - Woking fast. As has been said before the door buttons on the Desiro desks could be wired in, and CD/RA is present and operative at Waterloo...

 

[387star]

So SWR is now the only TOC on strike over DOO down from five at one point

GWR was first to have strikes in 2015 but has resolved the matter as has Northern Merseyrail and Greater Anglia

West mids remains quiet

That said the RMT are still technically in dispute with Southern despite their last strike being almost a year ago and with the OBS agreement having existed for over a year

Guess 313 replacement will reignite the issue.

 

[Antman]

It is a loaded political press release - the question is, “are you prepared ... to meet the terms of the offer to RMT from Northern Rail that EVERY train will run with a guard on board in addition to the driver? It really is very simple, YES or NO?”

Has Northern agreed to run every train, not every passenger carrying service, with a guard ? I haven’t seen their agreement but I really do doubt it - every single train ? From the shortest stock movement to an emergency movement?

It also tries to trap SWR into saying “guards”. Whereas the prior paragraph of the statement makes it fairly clear that they (Northern) are talking about conductors. And also refers to principles where northern accepts conductors on all new or modified rolling stock (ACAS bit).Then mixes up Guards and conductors.
It goes on to misrepresent what SWR said about a commitment to roster guards - deliberately (in my view) obfuscating whether SWR Means “staff “. I can’t believe the Comms people for the RMY would accidentally miss the point .

Then even Mick Cash’s quote (written by Comms as all these things always are) is again misleading - that refers to guards only, not conductors. And they have different meanings (even from searching the archives on here).

This is why we find it hard to trust what the RMT says (and don’t get me wrong, we don’t think SWR management get away without noses growing either). But the challenge is clearly flawed and one that I should advise SWR to swerve.

 

[pompeyfan]

But guards/conductors and train managers all have exactly the same rulebook reference. They’re all guards in the eyes of the RSSB rule book, just that some TOCs like to give them more customer focused sounding names. They all do the same thing in an emergency.

 

[Ethano92]

There’s also lots of situations where there’s a guard but no driver but strangely that’s never highlighted.

How is it strange. Unless we are prepared to pay for a driverless train and all the signalling needed for a train to ever run without a driver out of Waterloo in the next few decades at least. It's not about going straight to "what about if the driver isn't there, keep the driver then keep the guard", it's about eliminating another variable that could cause a train to be delayed, not all of them but another one nonetheless.SWR won't be the first to remove guards on their suburban services in London, but last (from my knowledge) so safety very much is not an issue. I could easily say funny how nobody mentions that in a similar way to what was quoted

In addition unless it's official railway terminology why should full crew be driver and guard. On 700s for example is full crew not just a driver, in the same way full crew on a 701 could easily safely be just a driver.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is a loaded political press release - the question is, “are you prepared ... to meet the terms of the offer to RMT from Northern Rail that EVERY train will run with a guard on board in addition to the driver? It really is very simple, YES or NO?”

Has Northern agreed to run every train, not every passenger carrying service, with a guard ? I haven’t seen their agreement but I really do doubt it - every single train ? From the shortest stock movement to an emergency movement?

Every train in passenger service, i.e. the status quo. ECS can still, as it currently can, be DOO.

 

[pompeyfan]

How is it strange. Unless we are prepared to pay for a driverless train and all the signalling needed for a train to ever run without a driver out of Waterloo in the next few decades at least. It's not about going straight to "what about if the driver isn't there, keep the driver then keep the guard", it's about eliminating another variable that could cause a train to be delayed, not all of them but another one nonetheless.SWR won't be the first to remove guards on their suburban services in London, but last (from my knowledge) so safety very much is not an issue. I could easily say funny how nobody mentions that in a similar way to what was quoted

As previously mentioned, full crew working removes that variable.

 

[Ethano92]

As previously mentioned, full crew working removes that variable.

I don't think you've understood my point. With a driver and guard there are 2 opportunities for one to become unavailable. With just a driver there's only one. Why not take advantage of that when necessary especially on a 701 which is the only train in question as full crew could be just a driver since that's all it needs to operate safely.

 

[pompeyfan]

I don't think you've understood my point. With a driver and guard there are 2 opportunities for one to become unavailable. With just a driver there's only one. Why not take advantage of that when necessary especially on a 701 which is the only train in question as full crew could be just a driver since that's all it needs to operate safely.

You’ve missed my point. Full Crew Working is where the driver and guard follow the same diagram/duty all day. That means that if you have one during disruption you’ll have the other. The only way you’ll end up without a guard is if they go sick, which is what cover turns are there for.

I’m not 100 percent sure that this dispute will only refer to the 701s. There’s nothing to stop a Desiro or diesel being dispatched next stop woking.