SWR Metro fleet withdrawals

444045

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Thank you very much for that clarifiication.

Unfortunately the allocations for 5B39/5Y51 rarely show up on RTT, possibly related to being Q trains?
It depends whether the units have been allocated on Genius, last week the unit showed up on RTT, but as you say it doesnt always.
 
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Big Jumby 74

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Going to be strange doing a Kingston Rounder (W-M) on a 450.Tomorrow.
Might be worth noting dwells en route. It starts to become critical that way round (in pre pandemic timetable performance parlance) from RP inwards. 450's couldn't quite match 4-458 over GF-AS (between Aldershot and Wanborough) which wasn't good in that instance due to min 5 min turnrounds at GF !

As for inner sub use of 450's it would seem that there is no option (stock wise) at present, from what I hear. Without wishing to cause any offence what so ever, a lot can depend on the crew being on the ball and up for the challenge, so to speak. I know from experience the peaks could be another matter altogether.

Many, many years ago now, 1990s if not before, I seem to recall, there were some complaints from some on the crew side (it may just have been one person, I don't know?) about the timetabling of GF New Line services, in respect of ability to keep time - it may have been during the winter season? - but suffice to say, with an experienced crew, who were keen to do their bit so to speak, these complaints were found to be groundless in principle.

Yes, no two journey's are ever the same, and yes, newbie's to the job will inevitably be more cautious in their approach to braking etc. but there has to be a point, a line in the sand as it were, when a stand has to be made in relation to the 'fitness for purpose' of the timetable.

Sorry, getting OT again!
 
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EAD

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As noted earlier this week some Chessington South trains are now 450 formed given the shortages with the lack of the new fleet. I caught the 1717 from Waterloo on Wednesday and got to enjoy a 450 in what would normally be 1st back to Earlsfield.
 
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Big Jumby 74

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Perhaps those in the 450 didn’t know the door buttons were now activated ;)
Due to (public) complaints of bad timekeeping, that to which I refer was a result of myself being up front (on official business) to gauge the real time situation. The result being that minor adjustments had to be made to the route's timetable. Then there was the 456 scenario, and their inability to keep time up Bagshot bank etc, I could go on !
 

Juniper Driver

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Which diagram on the Kingston loop is booked for a 450?
Dunno it's a Saturday additional drivers and guards diagram.I don't know what circuit that it is on.I see the 1331Kingston Rounder (W-M) is booked a 450 also.

Might be worth noting dwells en route. It starts to become critical that way round (in pre pandemic timetable performance parlance) from RP inwards. 450's couldn't quite match 4-458 over GF-AS (between Aldershot and Wanborough) which wasn't good in that instance due to min 5 min turnrounds at GF !

As for inner sub use of 450's it would seem that there is no option (stock wise) at present, from what I hear. Without wishing to cause any offence what so ever, a lot can depend on the crew being on the ball and up for the challenge, so to speak. I know from experience the peaks could be another matter altogether.
No problem.Was delayed by a freight train many times over the years when I was on the weekday 1403 W-M.
 
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fairysdad

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As noted earlier this week some Chessington South trains are now 450 formed given the shortages with the lack of the new fleet. I caught the 1717 from Waterloo on Wednesday and got to enjoy 450 in what would normally be 1st back to Earlsfield.
Caught the 1917 a couple of times this week and it was an odd experience. Heard somebody ask the guard at Waterloo on Wednesday if this was definitely the Chessington train as 'we usually get the red ones', and somebody asked me the same question on the train itself yesterday.

Would've thought though that if they are sending them down that way, they'd be on the Guildford via Epsom services rather than the shorter and (relatively) lesser-used Chessington ones, but I guess it's all down to the unit diagrams and where else that unit will go during the day.
 

swr444

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Caught the 1917 a couple of times this week and it was an odd experience. Heard somebody ask the guard at Waterloo on Wednesday if this was definitely the Chessington train as 'we usually get the red ones', and somebody asked me the same question on the train itself yesterday.

Would've thought though that if they are sending them down that way, they'd be on the Guildford via Epsom services rather than the shorter and (relatively) lesser-used Chessington ones, but I guess it's all down to the unit diagrams and where else that unit will go during the day.
the chessingtons interwork with the guildford via cobhams and the woking stoppers, hence them appearing on the trains to CSS as well.
 

SolomonSouth

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The 345 reliability must be a matter of concern given the impending Elizabeth line opening.
Yep. If they don't improve, things will get very bad.
The 710s and 720s seem to be performing better.
I don't know about that, 710s are still far below the 378s in reliability (despite the 378s lagging behind all the other electrostars) whilst the 720s are still far off the reliability of 360s and 379s, and they aren't even quite as good as 317/321/322, which doesn't sound like they are doing that well to me...
 

TEW

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Which diagram on the Kingston loop is booked for a 450?
0733 Waterloo to Waterloo via Richmond then Wimbledon
0857 Waterloo to Waterloo via Wimbledon then Richmond

Repeats every 3 hours. That's the booked 450 diagram on a Saturday.
 

Jturner98

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What’s the status of the 456 fleet? Are any left at Wimbledon or are they all at Long Marston?
 

Bessie

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How many 456s need to be reinstated to solve the current SWR short forms problem?
 

adc82140

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There will come a point where the Evening Standard or some such will cotton on to the fact that the 456s still exist. Cue the headlines of "overcrowded services while trains lie unused in Sidings". SWR will have to come up with a decent response to that, which goes beyond the "jam tomorrow" standard 701 press release.
 

DMckduck97

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There will come a point where the Evening Standard or some such will cotton on to the fact that the 456s still exist. Cue the headlines of "overcrowded services while trains lie unused in Sidings". SWR will have to come up with a decent response to that, which goes beyond the "jam tomorrow" standard 701 press release.
A good response to that would be the most relevant one, guards working any combination of 455+456 still have to patrol the full train outside of being required in the unit the driver is not in on multiple lines in peak hours. Here lies the problem if during this the guard is in the same unit as the driver and a passcom or egress goes there is no kick out so it requires an ESO and line block to sort out taking between 10-15 minutes each one. Since there was a lot of 455+456+456 floating about I suspect this played a factor in the withdrawal.
 

gmaguire

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A good response to that would be the most relevant one, guards working any combination of 455+456 still have to patrol the full train outside of being required in the unit the driver is not in on multiple lines in peak hours. Here lies the problem if during this the guard is in the same unit as the driver and a passcom or egress goes there is no kick out so it requires an ESO and line block to sort out taking between 10-15 minutes each one. Since there was a lot of 455+456+456 floating about I suspect this played a factor in the withdrawal.
It's strange that the class 456 was built to work with the 455, but was built without the front gangways.
 

Goldfish62

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It's strange that the class 456 was built to work with the 455, but was built without the front gangways.
At the time it was assumed by BR that all suburban services would be DOO so gangways for train crew purposes were not required.
 

DMckduck97

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It's strange that the class 456 was built to work with the 455, but was built without the front gangways.
The 456 refurb by SWT was the closest definition you could get of running a 10 car railway on the cheap. Dreadful trains I’m surprised lasted that long, also what probably helped was the fact some drivers couldn’t sign them due to height and other contributing personal factors
 

Big Jumby 74

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The 456 refurb by SWT was the closest definition you could get of running a 10 car railway on the cheap
Need to be careful here, but it was in SWT days (as opposed to SWR), but my understanding is that there were a number of bids put in to DfT for differing quantities of new 5 car units (707 as it turned out), and guess what, the Dft opted for the cheapest, as in least number of units (30 as it turned out). Consequently many suburban diagrams would have to remain 8 car (455), so other avenues were looked in to to make up the deficit. Need I say more!
 

fgwrich

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It's strange that the class 456 was built to work with the 455, but was built without the front gangways.

At the time it was assumed by BR that all suburban services would be DOO so gangways for train crew purposes were not required.

Not forgetting that they (at the time) were built to replace the EPBs. Of course, they were originally ordered for the South Western (Wimbledon) lines, but found themselves diverted to South Central (Selhurst). I believe they were the last unit to work the former Wimbledon - Mitcham - West Croydon line.
 

Big Jumby 74

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3 x 2, ah yes, the Hampton Court's. It's too long ago now, I can not remember the detail now, but I seem to recall there was quite a bit of discussion (back end wise) before said formation was given the ok. Same applied to 4+2+2 of course, but the 3 x 2 on the '30's sticks out in my memory because of what it was.
 
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