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SWR Missing out stops to make up time

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30907

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If I was on a train that should stop at my station at a certain time, then raced through without stopping, perhaps with just an announcement a couple of minutes before, I could get quite angry
If that were to happen, yes - but nobody on this thread has suggested it has.
this is a new dimension in customer unservice.
Skipping stops to recover time has been happening to my knowledge since the 70s.
I hope services are thinned out after covid, then there would be a better chance of promises being kept.
Possibly, if fewer trains are worked with the same number of crews and units - but even then there will still be times when they aren't.
(IIRC timetables used to carry wording that the company did not guarantee that trains would arrive and depart at the published times or at all.)
 
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matt_world2004

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The government something similar to what the tfl does to the crossrail concession for skip stopping where the fines increase each consecutive time that station is skipped.

For example first time the station is skipped the fine is something like £100 and the second time it is skipped the fine increases to £150 for the next train and so on . Also have variable fines for skip stopping based on demand for a particular station.

Admittedly it doesn't stop tfl rail skip stopping though.
 

Jim

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The government something similar to what the tfl does to the crossrail concession for skip stopping where the fines increase each consecutive time that station is skipped.

For example first time the station is skipped the fine is something like £100 and the second time it is skipped the fine increases to £150 for the next train and so on . Also have variable fines for skip stopping based on demand for a particular station.

Admittedly it doesn't stop tfl rail skip stopping though.
When that started, I found the whole thing fascinating ! Can just see the company expecting the controller to sit there with a calculator trying to find the best value service recovery mind!
 

43096

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If you look at the bigger picture there is normally good reason this is done. Not easy to accept if your station is the one of those missed out of course, but if it’s for the greater good.
Yes, but as the OP has said, in this case it is happening more often on the line that he (and I!) use. Looking at RTT recently they'll now pull stops even for a 5-10 min delay, even though there is a 15min turnround at Waterloo and 30mins at Reading. That never used to be the case - it had to be seriously impacting the back working for them to do that in the past.
 

matt_world2004

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When that started, I found the whole thing fascinating ! Can just see the company expecting the controller to sit there with a calculator trying to find the best value service recovery mind!
There are creative ways of minimising the fines. So one of the things they used to do was pay GwR to serve either Acton mainline or west Ealing if they had to skip the stop for any reason so you would sometimes get the GwR reading stoppers stop at West Ealing or Acton main line

The fines are huge for skip stopping missing Tottenham court road incurs a fine of £2450 for the first service and £12250 for the second consecutive service skipping TCR.
 
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Meglos

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Living on the Chessington Branch we get skippers occasionally, especially when the line between Waterloo and Wimbledon has had problems earlier in the service.. In the early evenings the up service may run non-stop from Raynes Park to Waterloo. The guard normally announces this at each stop from CSS onwards, but it is still *funny* to see the number of people who stand-up to get off at Wimbledon only to see the train hurtle straight through. Inevitably it's those listening to their phones/tablets on headsets which miss the announcements.

Going in the other direction, the service will occasionally run non-stop to Motspur Park. To me this is an issue, as my medical condition often requires me to catch the first train I can from Vauxhall to Raynes Park (first station with a toilet on the platform and also an enclosed waiting room), as standing on a windy platform in the cold at Vauxhall for 20 minutes can be very bad for me. I have stood on Platform 4 at Raynes Park and watched the Chessington South service sail through without stopping. Oh well only 30 minutes to wait for the next one, at least there is a Starbucks just outside the gateline, and the staff let me in/out to get a hot drink.
 

HST274

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In the West midlands I have only seen this happen once, when a cross city line train ran non stop from Birmingham New street to Redditch, only stopping at Longbridge (where luckily I was getting off) after some trouble with passengers at an earlier station causing delay. Then again I rarely travel at peak so cannot be sure how often if ever that happens.
 

davews

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Yes, it is the practise of doing it for relatively small delays, I don't think they ever did it for a ten minute one.
There again, they sometimes do wonders. Yesterday's trip up town nearly got cancelled when 2C11, the outward train which forms 2C18, got delayed 36 minutes at Egham due to a swan on the line... They ran fast from Longcross and made up time so 2C18 ran normally. It helped me but wouldn't have helped those trying to get into Reading. But there again, why stop at Longcross and miss out everything else?
 

Domh245

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Yes, but as the OP has said, in this case it is happening more often on the line that he (and I!) use. Looking at RTT recently they'll now pull stops even for a 5-10 min delay, even though there is a 15min turnround at Waterloo and 30mins at Reading. That never used to be the case - it had to be seriously impacting the back working for them to do that in the past.

I wonder if it's train crew issues. The rolling stock may be sitting for 15/30 minutes, but the drivers may be having to be resourced more intensely if there are still issues with the numbers available
 

Sean Emmett

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Don't have much sympathy for peeps not listening to annoucements, but not everyone can hear annoucements.

Skip stopping may be justified (to get overall timetable back on track) if there's an alternative service right behind, but at present there isn't.

Really baffling it should be happening going to Reading, where there are 30+ min turnarounds e.g. incoming train due xx.10, before waiting outgoing train leaves xx.12.

Who is this benefitting? Certainly not the stranded pax.
 

43096

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I wonder if it's train crew issues. The rolling stock may be sitting for 15/30 minutes, but the drivers may be having to be resourced more intensely if there are still issues with the numbers available
That’s not an issue at the Reading end.
 

Michaeco

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A large part of the problem is that SWR trains stop too often! This has resulted in Portsmouth Direct trains over 10 or so years going from a standard off-peak time Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour of 1 hr 23 (and one at 1 hr 18) to 1 hr 35 or even 1 hr 38, which is hardly progress. We all know that faster journeys enable you to think about using less units, so what is not to like?
 

swt_passenger

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A large part of the problem is that SWR trains stop too often! This has resulted in Portsmouth Direct trains over 10 or so years going from a standard off-peak time Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour of 1 hr 23 (and one at 1 hr 18) to 1 hr 35 or even 1 hr 38, which is hardly progress. We all know that faster journeys enable you to think about using less units, so what is not to like?
Perhaps they could bin your stop, and speed up everyone else’s journey? Ah, thought not…
 

LSWR Cavalier

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How often do trains miss stops? Is it actually quite rare?

I should quite like to read about missing stops in the popular media, that could be an entertaining change from complaints about delays, cancellations, wrong sort of leaves.
 

TFN

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I was once on an SWR train that was 15L and went fast from Hounslow to Waterloo, except that it got to Waterloo 18L (signal issues) and people who didn't listen to the guard's announcement were livid.

The train did make a stop at Putney after that.
 

43096

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And right now, we have a prime example, just as @davews spoke about.

1550 Waterloo-Reading is just 8 minutes late, yet skips Martins Heron and Bracknell: Realtime Trains - 2C47 1550 London Waterloo to Reading
This despite it being due in Reading at 1710 and having a 32 minutes turn round until its next working. If it was 25 late I would understand why - but for an 8 minute delay that is frankly unacceptable on every level.
 

Peter Mugridge

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And right now, we have a prime example, just as @davews spoke about.

1550 Waterloo-Reading is just 8 minutes late, yet skips Martins Heron and Bracknell: Realtime Trains - 2C47 1550 London Waterloo to Reading
This despite it being due in Reading at 1710 and having a 32 minutes turn round until its next working. If it was 25 late I would understand why - but for an 8 minute delay that is frankly unacceptable on every level.
Does the train crew have a PNB* booked at Reading? That might be a factor?


*Personal Needs Break
 

43096

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Does the train crew have a PNB* booked at Reading? That might be a factor?


*Personal Needs Break
No idea, tbh. But this never used to happen before - not under Stagecoach and not until recently under SWR. Just one more thing that underlines the railway's utter contempt for those who travel - the impression is that the railway operates for its own convenience.
 

Flange Squeal

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Does the train crew have a PNB* booked at Reading? That might be a factor?


*Personal Needs Break
Crews are not routinely booked PNBs at Reading as a matter of course. Occasionally during engineering works, rugby special turns, and a night turn for a while not so long ago that had its break there.
 

Kite159

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And right now, we have a prime example, just as @davews spoke about.

1550 Waterloo-Reading is just 8 minutes late, yet skips Martins Heron and Bracknell: Realtime Trains - 2C47 1550 London Waterloo to Reading
This despite it being due in Reading at 1710 and having a 32 minutes turn round until its next working. If it was 25 late I would understand why - but for an 8 minute delay that is frankly unacceptable on every level.

Especially as Reading bound, it will only interact with GWR at Wokingham (plus the odd freight if any freight goes via North Camp these days), not like it needs to be at a junction on time or else gets stuck behind a stopper, or any single track sections in which the next London train will get delayed.

SWR probably don't care about passengers who will have faced an extra 30 minute wait at Ascot for those skipped stations, the DFT are bankrolling them now, they don't need the revenue from that passenger who decides enough is enough and switches to using the bus or buys a car.

Reminds me last year (Jan time) of a Northern Blackpool train which arrived at Manchester Airport late and hence the return had calls at Heald Green & maybe another station ripped out. Departed the Airport running 12 minutes late... arrived at Piccadilly 15 minutes late as it caught up with another train which departed ahead of it.
 

IanXC

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Scotrail were quite good at this a couple years ago, before the media pulled them up on it, then suddenly a delayed train would be cancelled and run ECS to the destination to pick up the next service on time.

So that not only the passengers intending to travel to the intermediate stops but also those travelling to the destination are inconvenienced?
 

davews

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I wonder if when the decide to stop at Longcross but miss Sunningdale it is to drop those passengers for the missed stations there. Longcross is a much more attractive place to wait than Sunningdale after all!!!!
 

Kite159

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So that not only the passengers intending to travel to the intermediate stops but also those travelling to the destination are inconvenienced?

Yep, but got round a promise they made to the media about ending skip stopping when trains run late.

So you ended up with the ridiculous situation of a Edinburgh - Glasgow via Falkirk High arriving into Edinburgh late (due to signal issues around Haymarket/Newbridge) to run ECS back to Glasgow before returning to Edinburgh ECS as it was still late.
 

Tomnick

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So that not only the passengers intending to travel to the intermediate stops but also those travelling to the destination are inconvenienced?
An entirely foreseeable consequence of misguided political interference?
 

David Goddard

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Poor show for stations to be routinely missed like this, especially where there is a half hour wait for the next one (assuming that passengers customers were informed at Ascot that the next call would be Wokingham.
If its too many calls which is causing the problem then the timetable needs a recast, either for fewer calls in the longer distance workings or just longer intermediate timings. I would rather have a service that is booked to take five minutes longer than one which drops calls to make up time.
If we go back sixty years all services from Waterloo to Reading were first stop Staines.
 

JonathanH

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If its too many calls which is causing the problem then the timetable needs a recast, either for fewer calls in the longer distance workings or just longer intermediate timings. I would rather have a service that is booked to take five minutes longer than one which drops calls to make up time.
It already takes 80 minutes to get from Waterloo to Reading, with, as I recall, there typically being minute long dwells at Staines, Ascot and Wokingham. It doesn't strike me that it should need to get any slower to operate a reliable timetable.
If we go back sixty years all services from Waterloo to Reading were first stop Staines.
The fact that they aren't first stop Staines now should mean fewer delays in the London area as there is less need for a clear path (although I appreciate the pre-March 2020 stopping service in the London area is more intensive than sixty years ago).
 

ls2270

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No idea, tbh. But this never used to happen before - not under Stagecoach and not until recently under SWR. Just one more thing that underlines the railway's utter contempt for those who travel - the impression is that the railway operates for its own convenience.
It’s a result of a new way of measuring performance statistics known as T-3 introduced from 1st April (appropriately!) 2021. Previously lateness was measured based on the arrival time at the terminus station, now it is measured at every calling point en route. As the name suggests, every station served 3 or more minutes late counts as a failure and, therefore, presumably a penalty payment . It would appear that the alternative penalty payment for omitting to stop at the station is less, therefore it is that course of action which is taken. As per usual it is the fare paying passenger who is the unfortunate pawn in this game and is left standing on a station to watch his/her 4 minute late train pass through without stopping and arrive at its destination (where it had a half hour turn around time) early having left many of its intending customers behind in doing so. No doubt the statisticians and accountants who are behind this nonsense will be less pleased with themselves when the affected passengers vote with their feet and abandon the railway in favour of their cars. (I was going to say or fall victim to the policy themselves when travelling on the railway but then realised such a concept is so ridiculous that it could only have been sanctioned by someone who never used trains in the first place!)
 

43096

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It’s a result of a new way of measuring performance statistics known as T-3 introduced from 1st April (appropriately!) 2021. Previously lateness was measured based on the arrival time at the terminus station, now it is measured at every calling point en route. As the name suggests, every station served 3 or more minutes late counts as a failure and, therefore, presumably a penalty payment . It would appear that the alternative penalty payment for omitting to stop at the station is less, therefore it is that course of action which is taken. As per usual it is the fare paying passenger who is the unfortunate pawn in this game and is left standing on a station to watch his/her 4 minute late train pass through without stopping and arrive at its destination (where it had a half hour turn around time) early having left many of its intending customers behind in doing so. No doubt the statisticians and accountants who are behind this nonsense will be less pleased with themselves when the affected passengers vote with their feet and abandon the railway in favour of their cars. (I was going to say or fall victim to the policy themselves when travelling on the railway but then realised such a concept is so ridiculous that it could only have been sanctioned by someone who never used trains in the first place!)
Thank you. That explains it.

As usual the customer is worse off for a change on the railway. It needs a re-think: simple way would be for a fail to call to be double the penalty for a delay.
 
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