SWR Repaints and Refurbishments

[Doomotron]

No, they’d have been refurbished to a higher standard. This is First, so low standards are what we should expect.

I find that very unlikely. Stagecoach are known to be cheapskates, so it would have been a very low chance of them refurbishing their fleet.

 

[Goldfish62]

I find that very unlikely. Stagecoach are known to be cheapskates, so it would have been a very low chance of them refurbishing their fleet.

Indeed.

Deep cleans:
SWT: every nine months
SWR : every 28 days

 

[fgwrich]

I find that very unlikely. Stagecoach are known to be cheapskates, so it would have been a very low chance of them refurbishing their fleet.

Cheepskates they may be on the bus side, but they weren’t on the rail side. Yes it’s true that SWR does do more regular deep cleans than SWT did, but as a regular user of both SWT/R and FGW / GWR, it was and still is noticeable who spent more per fleet. First did, during their FGW era, seem to understand this, but since the various re-brands have become a very much branding focused company (eg, GWR, Lumo etc). On the maintenance side of things, the drop in reliability of the Salisbury based diesel fleet is noticeable. If I could have SWT back tomorrow, I would welcome them back with open arms. SWR promised so much, yet seems to be delivering very little - it’s surprising it hasn’t become an OLR operation yet.

Something else irked me a little last week too. The dirty state of the SWR flat cloth coverings. This wasn’t just your accidentally split chocolate or muddy feat on the seats but had certainly been on that seat for a while.

Anyway, having just wrote that, Modern Railways have tweeted that Wimbledon has picked up a Silver Spanner for improved reliability of the 456s.

 

[MatthewRead]

Cheepskates they may be on the bus side, but they weren’t on the rail side. Yes it’s true that SWR does do more regular deep cleans than SWT did, but as a regular user of both SWT/R and FGW / GWR, it was and still is noticeable who spent more per fleet. First did, during their FGW era, seem to understand this, but since the various re-brands have become a very much branding focused company (eg, GWR, Lumo etc). On the maintenance side of things, the drop in reliability of the Salisbury based diesel fleet is noticeable. If I could have SWT back tomorrow, I would welcome them back with open arms. SWR promised so much, yet seems to be delivering very little - it’s surprising it hasn’t become an OLR operation yet.

Something else irked me a little last week too. The dirty state of the SWR flat cloth coverings. This wasn’t just your accidentally split chocolate or muddy feat on the seats but had certainly been on that seat for a while.

Anyway, having just wrote that, Modern Railways have tweeted that Wimbledon has picked up a Silver Spanner for improved reliability of the 456s.

I like those seats they are way better than those astro turf seats you get on GTR and GWR seats which are horrid and dusty!

 

[RealTrains07]

Besides, the insides weren't finished on time either.

And the refurbishment was also scaled back in the end as well

 

[cjmillsnun]

I like those seats they are way better than those astro turf seats you get on GTR and GWR seats which are horrid and dusty!

The proper moquette on the SWT seats were better than the flat cloth there is now.

 

[spark001uk]

The proper moquette on the SWT seats were better than the flat cloth there is now.

I know exactly what you mean there, the new material has no pile to it.

 

[43102EMR]

I find that very unlikely. Stagecoach are known to be cheapskates, so it would have been a very low chance of them refurbishing their fleet.

Coming from personal experience, I have to disagree here - prior to Abellio and First taking over their remaining franchises, I always found their trains impeccably clean both inside and out. The difference a few weeks in to when they handed back the keys is unbelievable- makes trains that look about 1-2 years old look 10 years old…

 

[fgwrich]

The proper moquette on the SWT seats were better than the flat cloth there is now.

The lesson here, as First Group had already found out on the Western, is that you cannot beat Moquette. No more of this silly fanciful flat cloth, just stick to something that has worked well for the last century!

 

[Goldfish62]

Coming from personal experience, I have to disagree here - prior to Abellio and First taking over their remaining franchises, I always found their trains impeccably clean both inside and out. The difference a few weeks in to when they handed back the keys is unbelievable- makes trains that look about 1-2 years old look 10 years old…

The 455s and 458s were disgusting internally, but hardly surprising considering they were only cleaned once every nine months. A then-guard friend of mine said he was embarrassed to be working on such filthy trains.

The 444s were brown externally.

I agree about EMT/EMR, though.

 

[Dan15812]

SWR Desiro Repaints:

444s

002, 003, 005, 006, 007, 011, 012, 014, 015, 016, 017, 018, 019, 020, 021, 023, 024, 025, 027, 029, 030, 031, 032, 037, 038, 042 and 043 (27 units)(60% complete)

450s

005, 006, 009, 013, 014, 015, 016, 017, 018, 020, 021, 022, 023, 024, 025, 026, 027, 029, 030, 033, 034, 036, 038, 039, 041, 042, 043, 048, 052, 053, 055, 056, 057*, 061*, 063, 067, 081, 089, 096, 101, 107, 113, 119, 122, 123 and 127 (44 units)(35% complete)

Feel free to let me know of any more repainted Desiros.


Note: (* = Currently being done)

444040 and 450111 have had vinyl wrap (not been painted)

 

[pigs bay]

If Stagecoach are "cheapskates" then what is First group. When Stagecoach had SWT at least the 444's had a buffet area or a trolley service, AND in 1st class it was 2+1 seating, not the cramped 2+2 that we've got now. The only good thing the desiro refurb has done is putting the 1st class on the 450's at the ends of each unit, other than that under Stagecoach SWT at least the trains were clean on the inside AND outside And you could see the yellow ends. To go off track in that respect just look at the front of the class 159 involved in the Salisbury incident.

 

[Goldfish62]

If Stagecoach are "cheapskates" then what is First group. When Stagecoach had SWT at least the 444's had a buffet area or a trolley service, AND in 1st class it was 2+1 seating, not the cramped 2+2 that we've got now. The only good thing the desiro refurb has done is putting the 1st class on the 450's at the ends of each unit, other than that under Stagecoach SWT at least the trains were clean on the inside AND outside And you could see the yellow ends. To go off track in that respect just look at the front of the class 159 involved in the Salisbury incident.

Bit of a rose-tinted vision of SWT there. You can't have travelled on 458s during SWT's tenure.

 

[Mike Machin]

I personally have never used the class 458s, so can't comment on that aspect of the service, but I have to agree that generally the service was excellent under Stagecoaches tenure. I have friends from Norway who regularly visit me and travel from Waterloo to Southampton Parkway, and without prompting or me leading the conversation, a number of years ago they exclaimed that the train service 'is so good here in England'.

The last time they visited, just pre-COVID, after I had picked them up in the car at the station they asked -'what has gone wrong with your trains here in England?'.

They obviously had noticed the overall deterioration since SWR came into being!

 

[Goldfish62]

I personally have never used the class 458s, so can't comment on that aspect of the service, but I have to agree that generally the service was excellent under Stagecoaches tenure. I have friends from Norway who regularly visit me and travel from Waterloo to Southampton Parkway, and without prompting or me leading the conversation, a number of years ago they exclaimed that the train service 'is so good here in England'.

The last time they visited, just pre-COVID, after I had picked them up in the car at the station they asked -'what has gone wrong with your trains here in England?'.

They obviously had noticed the overall deterioration since SWR came into being!

We'll have to agree to disagree on that, but what I do find is that those who tend to think SWT were "excellent" (!!!) tended to base their experience on the main line services, rather than suburban or Windsor lines.

My own personal view of SWT was that it started off as abysmal, improved considerably to be one of the best TOCs during Andrew Haines' tenure then declined into mediocrity.

Anway, sorry, off-topic.

Back to repaints I know there are reasons why unit fronts can't be routinely cleaned, an issue that started under SWT, but hope it gets sorted as it's not a good look.

 

[43102EMR]

Bit of a rose-tinted vision of SWT there. You can't have travelled on 458s during SWT's tenure.

After SWT properly refurbished the 458s they were fine - bare in mind that under SWT they were the first units in Britain to achieve a 6-figure rating between failures…

 

[Goldfish62]

After SWT properly refurbished the 458s they were fine - bare in mind that under SWT they were the first units in Britain to achieve a 6-figure rating between failures…

They've never actually been properly refurbished. It's always been acknowledged that the 5-car project was a do-minimum as regards cosmetic refurbishment. The toilets weren't even deep cleaned as part of the work. Reliability also plumetted.

 

[43102EMR]

They've never actually been properly refurbished. It's always been acknowledged that the 5-car project was a do-minimum as regards cosmetic refurbishment. The toilets weren't even deep cleaned as part of the work. Reliability also plumetted.

They only had just over a year with SWT - most of that’s on SWR…

 

[Goldfish62]

They only had just over a year with SWT - most of that’s on SWR…

That is simply incorrect. They entered service from March 2014 onwards, with an immediate decline in reliability. You can't put that one on SWR however much you might want to.

 

[43096]

They've never actually been properly refurbished. It's always been acknowledged that the 5-car project was a do-minimum as regards cosmetic refurbishment. The toilets weren't even deep cleaned as part of the work. Reliability also plumetted.

The reliability drop was because between them, Alstom and Wabtec undid all the work that Wimbledon had done on them as /0s. Wimbledon had to start again with them!

Cosmetically they didn't need much doing at the time of the 5-car conversion (other than the ex-460 cars, obviously) as they had not long had new floors and standard class seat covers during the C6 programme at Bournemouth in 2010-2012, although they did get replacement flooring (I think) during the 5-car conversion.

 

[fgwrich]

That is simply incorrect. They entered service from March 2014 onwards, with an immediate decline in reliability. You can't put that one on SWR however much you might want to.

Indeed, though in part would put that to being the classic Alstom / Juniper reliability, which has never been that great (though at least Wimbledon did work their wonders on them achieving an impressive amount before their total b*st*rdisation). I still find the free shower one of the 458/5s I once travelled on most impressive - it wasn't just leaking through the ceiling panels but down the walls as well.

 

[Goldfish62]

Indeed, though in part would put that to being the classic Alstom / Juniper reliability, which has never been that great (though at least Wimbledon did work their wonders on them achieving an impressive amount before their total b*st*rdisation). I still find the free shower one of the 458/5s I once travelled on most impressive - it wasn't just leaking through the ceiling panels but down the walls as well.

Yes, you often get a free shower through their windows when it's raining as well.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If Stagecoach are "cheapskates" then what is First group. When Stagecoach had SWT at least the 444's had a buffet area or a trolley service, AND in 1st class it was 2+1 seating, not the cramped 2+2 that we've got now. The only good thing the desiro refurb has done is putting the 1st class on the 450's at the ends of each unit, other than that under Stagecoach SWT at least the trains were clean on the inside AND outside And you could see the yellow ends. To go off track in that respect just look at the front of the class 159 involved in the Salisbury incident.

The 444 (and also 450) refurbishment you mention above (taking out the buffet and re-seating/moving First class) was a Stagecoach, Angel and Siemens scheme that had been developed as part of the failed Direct Award process. The following franchise process then instructed the successful bidder to implement this to increase standard accommodation.

 

[fgwrich]

The 444 (and also 450) refurbishment you mention above (taking out the buffet and re-seating/moving First class) was a Stagecoach, Angel and Siemens scheme that had been developed as part of the failed Direct Award process. The following franchise process then instructed the successful bidder to implement this to increase standard accommodation.

I just wish it had included better luggage provision - eg racks at the end of the 444s. Unfortunately, the DfTs seat obsession has rather overruled that one, and it's often to see large luggage placed on the seats (Yes, the overhead racks are fairly large, but as the expression goes, you can lead a horse too water but you can't make it drink!).

 

[Bigfoot]

When Stagecoach had SWT at least the 444's had a buffet area or a trolley service.

The trolley service was not provided by SWT or SWR. It was offered by rail gourmet who then became/sold off to Ellior.

They then canned the trolley once covid hit and passenger numbers plumeted. It wasn't a big money maker by all accounts. It might return in years to come. Who knows.

 

[43096]

The trolley service was not provided by SWT or SWR. It was offered by rail gourmet who then became/sold off to Ellior.

They then canned the trolley once covid hit and passenger numbers plumeted. It wasn't a big money maker by all accounts. It might return in years to come. Who knows.

It was contracted out by SWT / SWR. It wasn't like Rail Gormless just decided to offer a catering service!

 

[fgwrich]

The trolley service was not provided by SWT or SWR. It was offered by rail gourmet who then became/sold off to Ellior.

They then canned the trolley once covid hit and passenger numbers plumeted. It wasn't a big money maker by all accounts. It might return in years to come. Who knows.

I rather hope that a trolley service does make a return to the South Western, as it was rather handy to have on the Waterloo - Exeter services.

 

[Goldfish62]

The 444 (and also 450) refurbishment you mention above (taking out the buffet and re-seating/moving First class) was a Stagecoach, Angel and Siemens scheme that had been developed as part of the failed Direct Award process. The following franchise process then instructed the successful bidder to implement this to increase standard accommodation.

This fact will really confuse the Stagecoach Fan Club brigade.

Anyway, we'd better get back On Topic before we're modded...

 

[Dan15812]

SWR Desiro Repaints:

444s

002, 003, 005, 006, 007, 011, 012, 014, 015, 016, 017, 018, 019, 020, 021, 023, 024, 025, 027, 029, 030, 031, 032, 037, 038, 042 and 043 (27 units)(60% complete)

450s

005, 006, 009, 013, 014, 015, 016, 017, 018, 020, 021, 022, 023, 024, 025, 026, 027, 029, 030, 033, 034, 036, 038, 039, 041, 042, 043, 048, 052, 053, 055, 056, 057, 061*, 063, 066*, 067, 081, 089, 096, 101, 107, 113, 119, 122, 123, 126 and 127 (45 units)(37% complete)

Feel free to let me know of any more repainted Desiros.


Note: (* = Currently being done)

444040 and 450111 have had vinyl wrap (not been painted)

 

[387star]

Did two south west trains liveried 159s get the go faster stripe version of the SWT livery ? I ask because one was involved in the Salisbury crash I think but I swear I saw another in the same livery